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Author Topic: Adobe Announces Photoshop & Lightroom for $9.99/mth  (Read 26051 times)

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Adobe Announces Photoshop & Lightroom for $9.99/mth
« Reply #90 on: September 05, 2013, 09:13:31 PM »

Whoever told you that at Adobe is smoking something.   Yes, many of the ACR tools replicate the tools in the LR Develop module.  But being able to adjust white balance, recover highlights, adjust contrast, etc, is only a small part of the LR package. 

I don't know how anyone doesn't think file management in LR isn't superior than just piling on PSD after PSD file in PS.  With Virtual Copy, I can create an unlimited number of versions of a photo - different sizes, different processing, etc, without creating any additional files in the system.  I could create 100 different versions of one photo and still have only one raw file on the system.  The only time I get a new file is when I chose to export one of those versions out to some other format like JPG.

Unlimited and eternal editing history on any image, without having to ever hit "Save".  Edit history in Photoshop has a limited number of steps it can retain, and only during the time that photo is open in PS.  I can pile up literally hundreds of edits on a single photo in LR, go away for a years, come back to that photo and see every editing step I ever took, and can roll the image forward and backward to any previous step.  Let's say that 50 steps ago I converted the image to B&W.  But now I want a color version.  I can roll the image back 50 steps to the last step it was in color, create virtual copy at that point to get a second copy in color, then roll the original forward back to the black and white version.  Now I have two independent copies of the same photo that I can process separately.

Collections - these are groupings of photos that span any location on the file system.  So I have a "Grandkids" collection.  Every photo I take of the my grandkids I add to that LR collection, but they don't physically move from whereever they are on the disc file system.

Slice and dice all my photos by any criteria I want.  I want to find every shot taken with my 5DIII with a 70-200 2.8L at ISO 3200 and shutter speed of 1/60?  No problem.  I've zipped through 10,000 or more photos applying search criteria like that and had them all up in the grid view in a matter of a few seconds.

Rate every photo numericall (1-5), with a color rating (Green, Red, Blue, Etc), a "Pick" flag, a "Reject" flag, self-selected key words, and retrieve every photo at any level of my LR catalog hirearchy by those attributes.

Burn entire collections directly to CD at any size and resolution I want without having to first dump a bunch of JPGs to disc, further cluttering up my file system.

Export photos as JPG images directly to email attachments without having first dump a bunch of JPGs to disc and then manually attach to email.  Further avoids cluttering up the file system with more files.

Export and manage whole catalogs for archive off-line but easily reopen and access those catalogs.  My current LR catalog has the current year plus the previous two full years of images, organized at the top by year (2011, 2012, 2013).  When the new year rolls over, I export the oldest year in to it's own LR catalog and store on an external harddrive, and remove that year from my current working catalog.  Keeps my image volume manageable.  But if I need to get something from an earlier catalog.  It's less than a 2 minute operation to close my current catalog and open the archived one to find and work with what I'm looking for.

I could go on and on.  IMHO, anyone who thinks LR doesn't bring significant added value to their workflow of PS either doesn't have enough images to make it worth their while, or isn't using LR to maximum effect.

Great info gbchriste, been thinking of getting LR, the above is very compelling. Being able to roll back history and take virtual copies as you have described is incredible. That alone makes my mind up.

Two questions if you don't mind though before I download a trial.

Do all vers have this facility or is it only the latest?

Can you also roll back crop info?

Regards

I'd have to look back, but the last few versions definitely have that kind of exporting/editing.

For crop info, you can still re-crop from the original even if you've made 50 changes since the last crop. That way you don't have to roll back all of your changes, just using the crop tool and go in, or out, or change the aspect ratio. Whichever.

Hmm I just realized a potential stumbling block though. What if some the steps involved say Nik plug-ins? I don't think Adobe seems to be able to record what settings were used so could how could it handle that? Also what about fancy work with layers?

The concept is brilliant and enticing, I'm just not sure it could handle all the things I do so I'm not sure it would do me good often enough. I'll have to look into it in more detail.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 09:16:19 PM by LetTheRightLensIn »

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Re: Adobe Announces Photoshop & Lightroom for $9.99/mth
« Reply #90 on: September 05, 2013, 09:13:31 PM »

gbchriste

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Re: Adobe Announces Photoshop & Lightroom for $9.99/mth
« Reply #91 on: September 05, 2013, 11:26:51 PM »

Whoever told you that at Adobe is smoking something.   Yes, many of the ACR tools replicate the tools in the LR Develop module.  But being able to adjust white balance, recover highlights, adjust contrast, etc, is only a small part of the LR package. 

I don't know how anyone doesn't think file management in LR isn't superior than just piling on PSD after PSD file in PS.  With Virtual Copy, I can create an unlimited number of versions of a photo - different sizes, different processing, etc, without creating any additional files in the system.  I could create 100 different versions of one photo and still have only one raw file on the system.  The only time I get a new file is when I chose to export one of those versions out to some other format like JPG.

Unlimited and eternal editing history on any image, without having to ever hit "Save".  Edit history in Photoshop has a limited number of steps it can retain, and only during the time that photo is open in PS.  I can pile up literally hundreds of edits on a single photo in LR, go away for a years, come back to that photo and see every editing step I ever took, and can roll the image forward and backward to any previous step.  Let's say that 50 steps ago I converted the image to B&W.  But now I want a color version.  I can roll the image back 50 steps to the last step it was in color, create virtual copy at that point to get a second copy in color, then roll the original forward back to the black and white version.  Now I have two independent copies of the same photo that I can process separately.

Collections - these are groupings of photos that span any location on the file system.  So I have a "Grandkids" collection.  Every photo I take of the my grandkids I add to that LR collection, but they don't physically move from whereever they are on the disc file system.

Slice and dice all my photos by any criteria I want.  I want to find every shot taken with my 5DIII with a 70-200 2.8L at ISO 3200 and shutter speed of 1/60?  No problem.  I've zipped through 10,000 or more photos applying search criteria like that and had them all up in the grid view in a matter of a few seconds.

Rate every photo numericall (1-5), with a color rating (Green, Red, Blue, Etc), a "Pick" flag, a "Reject" flag, self-selected key words, and retrieve every photo at any level of my LR catalog hirearchy by those attributes.

Burn entire collections directly to CD at any size and resolution I want without having to first dump a bunch of JPGs to disc, further cluttering up my file system.

Export photos as JPG images directly to email attachments without having first dump a bunch of JPGs to disc and then manually attach to email.  Further avoids cluttering up the file system with more files.

Export and manage whole catalogs for archive off-line but easily reopen and access those catalogs.  My current LR catalog has the current year plus the previous two full years of images, organized at the top by year (2011, 2012, 2013).  When the new year rolls over, I export the oldest year in to it's own LR catalog and store on an external harddrive, and remove that year from my current working catalog.  Keeps my image volume manageable.  But if I need to get something from an earlier catalog.  It's less than a 2 minute operation to close my current catalog and open the archived one to find and work with what I'm looking for.

I could go on and on.  IMHO, anyone who thinks LR doesn't bring significant added value to their workflow of PS either doesn't have enough images to make it worth their while, or isn't using LR to maximum effect.

Great info gbchriste, been thinking of getting LR, the above is very compelling. Being able to roll back history and take virtual copies as you have described is incredible. That alone makes my mind up.

Two questions if you don't mind though before I download a trial.

Do all vers have this facility or is it only the latest?

Can you also roll back crop info?

Regards

I've been using LR since V3 and all have the unlimited/eternal editing history and virtual copy features.

Any edit in LR can be rolled back no matter what it is.  But you do have to be careful.  When you look at the history, you see it as a series of steps stacked up in a vertical window, with the latest edit on the top of the stack, and the earliest on the bottom of the stack.  You can't just yank a step out of the stack to undo it.

If I click on an earlier step, the photo will re-rendered to the version that contains that step and all steps prior to that.  I can then export a photo or create a virtual copy with those edits applied.  I can then step back forward to the later edits in the stack to return the photo to where it was when I started. 

gbchriste

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Re: Adobe Announces Photoshop & Lightroom for $9.99/mth
« Reply #92 on: September 05, 2013, 11:30:54 PM »

Whoever told you that at Adobe is smoking something.   Yes, many of the ACR tools replicate the tools in the LR Develop module.  But being able to adjust white balance, recover highlights, adjust contrast, etc, is only a small part of the LR package. 

I don't know how anyone doesn't think file management in LR isn't superior than just piling on PSD after PSD file in PS.  With Virtual Copy, I can create an unlimited number of versions of a photo - different sizes, different processing, etc, without creating any additional files in the system.  I could create 100 different versions of one photo and still have only one raw file on the system.  The only time I get a new file is when I chose to export one of those versions out to some other format like JPG.

Unlimited and eternal editing history on any image, without having to ever hit "Save".  Edit history in Photoshop has a limited number of steps it can retain, and only during the time that photo is open in PS.  I can pile up literally hundreds of edits on a single photo in LR, go away for a years, come back to that photo and see every editing step I ever took, and can roll the image forward and backward to any previous step.  Let's say that 50 steps ago I converted the image to B&W.  But now I want a color version.  I can roll the image back 50 steps to the last step it was in color, create virtual copy at that point to get a second copy in color, then roll the original forward back to the black and white version.  Now I have two independent copies of the same photo that I can process separately.

Collections - these are groupings of photos that span any location on the file system.  So I have a "Grandkids" collection.  Every photo I take of the my grandkids I add to that LR collection, but they don't physically move from whereever they are on the disc file system.

Slice and dice all my photos by any criteria I want.  I want to find every shot taken with my 5DIII with a 70-200 2.8L at ISO 3200 and shutter speed of 1/60?  No problem.  I've zipped through 10,000 or more photos applying search criteria like that and had them all up in the grid view in a matter of a few seconds.

Rate every photo numericall (1-5), with a color rating (Green, Red, Blue, Etc), a "Pick" flag, a "Reject" flag, self-selected key words, and retrieve every photo at any level of my LR catalog hirearchy by those attributes.

Burn entire collections directly to CD at any size and resolution I want without having to first dump a bunch of JPGs to disc, further cluttering up my file system.

Export photos as JPG images directly to email attachments without having first dump a bunch of JPGs to disc and then manually attach to email.  Further avoids cluttering up the file system with more files.

Export and manage whole catalogs for archive off-line but easily reopen and access those catalogs.  My current LR catalog has the current year plus the previous two full years of images, organized at the top by year (2011, 2012, 2013).  When the new year rolls over, I export the oldest year in to it's own LR catalog and store on an external harddrive, and remove that year from my current working catalog.  Keeps my image volume manageable.  But if I need to get something from an earlier catalog.  It's less than a 2 minute operation to close my current catalog and open the archived one to find and work with what I'm looking for.

I could go on and on.  IMHO, anyone who thinks LR doesn't bring significant added value to their workflow of PS either doesn't have enough images to make it worth their while, or isn't using LR to maximum effect.

Great info gbchriste, been thinking of getting LR, the above is very compelling. Being able to roll back history and take virtual copies as you have described is incredible. That alone makes my mind up.

Two questions if you don't mind though before I download a trial.

Do all vers have this facility or is it only the latest?

Can you also roll back crop info?

Regards

I'd have to look back, but the last few versions definitely have that kind of exporting/editing.

For crop info, you can still re-crop from the original even if you've made 50 changes since the last crop. That way you don't have to roll back all of your changes, just using the crop tool and go in, or out, or change the aspect ratio. Whichever.

Hmm I just realized a potential stumbling block though. What if some the steps involved say Nik plug-ins? I don't think Adobe seems to be able to record what settings were used so could how could it handle that? Also what about fancy work with layers?

The concept is brilliant and enticing, I'm just not sure it could handle all the things I do so I'm not sure it would do me good often enough. I'll have to look into it in more detail.

Can't speak to how it handles 3rd party plug-ins since I've not used any of them.

As to layers, if your workflow or style involves a lot of complex layer manipulation, especially with layer styles like Softlight, et al,  then PS may definitely have an advantage for you.

In my portrait work I try to do everything I need to do in LR.  My editing style is pretty clean so I don't need a lot of layer effects.  I only use PS for retouching, cloning/healing, content aware delete, etc when I need to clean up a photo and LR's comparatively weak heal/clone tool isn't up to the task.

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Re: Adobe Announces Photoshop & Lightroom for $9.99/mth
« Reply #93 on: September 06, 2013, 09:12:17 AM »

Whoever told you that at Adobe is smoking something.   Yes, many of the ACR tools replicate the tools in the LR Develop module.  But being able to adjust white balance, recover highlights, adjust contrast, etc, is only a small part of the LR package. 

I don't know how anyone doesn't think file management in LR isn't superior than just piling on PSD after PSD file in PS.  With Virtual Copy, I can create an unlimited number of versions of a photo - different sizes, different processing, etc, without creating any additional files in the system.  I could create 100 different versions of one photo and still have only one raw file on the system.  The only time I get a new file is when I chose to export one of those versions out to some other format like JPG.

Unlimited and eternal editing history on any image, without having to ever hit "Save".  Edit history in Photoshop has a limited number of steps it can retain, and only during the time that photo is open in PS.  I can pile up literally hundreds of edits on a single photo in LR, go away for a years, come back to that photo and see every editing step I ever took, and can roll the image forward and backward to any previous step.  Let's say that 50 steps ago I converted the image to B&W.  But now I want a color version.  I can roll the image back 50 steps to the last step it was in color, create virtual copy at that point to get a second copy in color, then roll the original forward back to the black and white version.  Now I have two independent copies of the same photo that I can process separately.

Collections - these are groupings of photos that span any location on the file system.  So I have a "Grandkids" collection.  Every photo I take of the my grandkids I add to that LR collection, but they don't physically move from whereever they are on the disc file system.

Slice and dice all my photos by any criteria I want.  I want to find every shot taken with my 5DIII with a 70-200 2.8L at ISO 3200 and shutter speed of 1/60?  No problem.  I've zipped through 10,000 or more photos applying search criteria like that and had them all up in the grid view in a matter of a few seconds.

Rate every photo numericall (1-5), with a color rating (Green, Red, Blue, Etc), a "Pick" flag, a "Reject" flag, self-selected key words, and retrieve every photo at any level of my LR catalog hirearchy by those attributes.

Burn entire collections directly to CD at any size and resolution I want without having to first dump a bunch of JPGs to disc, further cluttering up my file system.

Export photos as JPG images directly to email attachments without having first dump a bunch of JPGs to disc and then manually attach to email.  Further avoids cluttering up the file system with more files.

Export and manage whole catalogs for archive off-line but easily reopen and access those catalogs.  My current LR catalog has the current year plus the previous two full years of images, organized at the top by year (2011, 2012, 2013).  When the new year rolls over, I export the oldest year in to it's own LR catalog and store on an external harddrive, and remove that year from my current working catalog.  Keeps my image volume manageable.  But if I need to get something from an earlier catalog.  It's less than a 2 minute operation to close my current catalog and open the archived one to find and work with what I'm looking for.

I could go on and on.  IMHO, anyone who thinks LR doesn't bring significant added value to their workflow of PS either doesn't have enough images to make it worth their while, or isn't using LR to maximum effect.

Great info gbchriste, been thinking of getting LR, the above is very compelling. Being able to roll back history and take virtual copies as you have described is incredible. That alone makes my mind up.

Two questions if you don't mind though before I download a trial.

Do all vers have this facility or is it only the latest?

Can you also roll back crop info?

Regards

I'd have to look back, but the last few versions definitely have that kind of exporting/editing.

For crop info, you can still re-crop from the original even if you've made 50 changes since the last crop. That way you don't have to roll back all of your changes, just using the crop tool and go in, or out, or change the aspect ratio. Whichever.

Hmm I just realized a potential stumbling block though. What if some the steps involved say Nik plug-ins? I don't think Adobe seems to be able to record what settings were used so could how could it handle that? Also what about fancy work with layers?

The concept is brilliant and enticing, I'm just not sure it could handle all the things I do so I'm not sure it would do me good often enough. I'll have to look into it in more detail.

Can't speak to how it handles 3rd party plug-ins since I've not used any of them.

As to layers, if your workflow or style involves a lot of complex layer manipulation, especially with layer styles like Softlight, et al,  then PS may definitely have an advantage for you.

In my portrait work I try to do everything I need to do in LR.  My editing style is pretty clean so I don't need a lot of layer effects.  I only use PS for retouching, cloning/healing, content aware delete, etc when I need to clean up a photo and LR's comparatively weak heal/clone tool isn't up to the task.

onOne Software's Perfect Photo Suite allows for layers with most of the functionality of PS.  It is available as a plug-in for Lightroom, which allows you to access layer functionality without going into PS.  Of course, when you return to LR from Perfect Photo Suite a new file is created with the edits you made, but that is also true when you use PS as an external editor from within LR. 

Plus, the onOne suite includes several modules that do much more than provide layers.  You can get it with stand-alone capability, or just as a plug-in.  It is a pretty slick package, even at full price it is much cheaper than PS, and you get a permanent license!  ;)

gbchristie, what version of LR are you using?  The healing brush is supposed to be greatly improved in LR 5.

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Re: Adobe Announces Photoshop & Lightroom for $9.99/mth
« Reply #94 on: September 06, 2013, 09:34:34 AM »
@ unfocused: CS6 was available as a box-version. I have this version.
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Re: Adobe Announces Photoshop & Lightroom for $9.99/mth
« Reply #95 on: September 06, 2013, 09:47:20 AM »
@ unfocused: CS6 was available as a box-version. I have this version.

My bad. I didn't realize that.

I had forgotten, I got CS6 as a free upgrade under a promotion where, if you upgraded to 5.5 near the end of it's life cycle, Adobe sent you a code for an upgrade to CS6 when it came out. Under that promotion you had to upgrade via download. No boxed version offered. Hence, my confusion.
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gbchriste

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Re: Adobe Announces Photoshop & Lightroom for $9.99/mth
« Reply #96 on: September 06, 2013, 09:52:40 AM »

Whoever told you that at Adobe is smoking something.   Yes, many of the ACR tools replicate the tools in the LR Develop module.  But being able to adjust white balance, recover highlights, adjust contrast, etc, is only a small part of the LR package. 

I don't know how anyone doesn't think file management in LR isn't superior than just piling on PSD after PSD file in PS.  With Virtual Copy, I can create an unlimited number of versions of a photo - different sizes, different processing, etc, without creating any additional files in the system.  I could create 100 different versions of one photo and still have only one raw file on the system.  The only time I get a new file is when I chose to export one of those versions out to some other format like JPG.

Unlimited and eternal editing history on any image, without having to ever hit "Save".  Edit history in Photoshop has a limited number of steps it can retain, and only during the time that photo is open in PS.  I can pile up literally hundreds of edits on a single photo in LR, go away for a years, come back to that photo and see every editing step I ever took, and can roll the image forward and backward to any previous step.  Let's say that 50 steps ago I converted the image to B&W.  But now I want a color version.  I can roll the image back 50 steps to the last step it was in color, create virtual copy at that point to get a second copy in color, then roll the original forward back to the black and white version.  Now I have two independent copies of the same photo that I can process separately.

Collections - these are groupings of photos that span any location on the file system.  So I have a "Grandkids" collection.  Every photo I take of the my grandkids I add to that LR collection, but they don't physically move from whereever they are on the disc file system.

Slice and dice all my photos by any criteria I want.  I want to find every shot taken with my 5DIII with a 70-200 2.8L at ISO 3200 and shutter speed of 1/60?  No problem.  I've zipped through 10,000 or more photos applying search criteria like that and had them all up in the grid view in a matter of a few seconds.

Rate every photo numericall (1-5), with a color rating (Green, Red, Blue, Etc), a "Pick" flag, a "Reject" flag, self-selected key words, and retrieve every photo at any level of my LR catalog hirearchy by those attributes.

Burn entire collections directly to CD at any size and resolution I want without having to first dump a bunch of JPGs to disc, further cluttering up my file system.

Export photos as JPG images directly to email attachments without having first dump a bunch of JPGs to disc and then manually attach to email.  Further avoids cluttering up the file system with more files.

Export and manage whole catalogs for archive off-line but easily reopen and access those catalogs.  My current LR catalog has the current year plus the previous two full years of images, organized at the top by year (2011, 2012, 2013).  When the new year rolls over, I export the oldest year in to it's own LR catalog and store on an external harddrive, and remove that year from my current working catalog.  Keeps my image volume manageable.  But if I need to get something from an earlier catalog.  It's less than a 2 minute operation to close my current catalog and open the archived one to find and work with what I'm looking for.

I could go on and on.  IMHO, anyone who thinks LR doesn't bring significant added value to their workflow of PS either doesn't have enough images to make it worth their while, or isn't using LR to maximum effect.

Great info gbchriste, been thinking of getting LR, the above is very compelling. Being able to roll back history and take virtual copies as you have described is incredible. That alone makes my mind up.

Two questions if you don't mind though before I download a trial.

Do all vers have this facility or is it only the latest?

Can you also roll back crop info?

Regards

I'd have to look back, but the last few versions definitely have that kind of exporting/editing.

For crop info, you can still re-crop from the original even if you've made 50 changes since the last crop. That way you don't have to roll back all of your changes, just using the crop tool and go in, or out, or change the aspect ratio. Whichever.

Hmm I just realized a potential stumbling block though. What if some the steps involved say Nik plug-ins? I don't think Adobe seems to be able to record what settings were used so could how could it handle that? Also what about fancy work with layers?

The concept is brilliant and enticing, I'm just not sure it could handle all the things I do so I'm not sure it would do me good often enough. I'll have to look into it in more detail.

Can't speak to how it handles 3rd party plug-ins since I've not used any of them.

As to layers, if your workflow or style involves a lot of complex layer manipulation, especially with layer styles like Softlight, et al,  then PS may definitely have an advantage for you.

In my portrait work I try to do everything I need to do in LR.  My editing style is pretty clean so I don't need a lot of layer effects.  I only use PS for retouching, cloning/healing, content aware delete, etc when I need to clean up a photo and LR's comparatively weak heal/clone tool isn't up to the task.

onOne Software's Perfect Photo Suite allows for layers with most of the functionality of PS.  It is available as a plug-in for Lightroom, which allows you to access layer functionality without going into PS.  Of course, when you return to LR from Perfect Photo Suite a new file is created with the edits you made, but that is also true when you use PS as an external editor from within LR. 

Plus, the onOne suite includes several modules that do much more than provide layers.  You can get it with stand-alone capability, or just as a plug-in.  It is a pretty slick package, even at full price it is much cheaper than PS, and you get a permanent license!  ;)

gbchristie, what version of LR are you using?  The healing brush is supposed to be greatly improved in LR 5.

I'm using LR5 and yes the healing brush is greatly improved.  When it works, it works really well and has already saved me on a number of occassions from having to make a round trip to PS.  But it's still not as capable as the clone/stamp and content aware tools in PS.  Some retouching just defies the LR healing brush and has to be done in PS.

Will definitely look in to the onOne suite.  Sounds enticing.

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Re: Adobe Announces Photoshop & Lightroom for $9.99/mth
« Reply #96 on: September 06, 2013, 09:52:40 AM »

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Re: Adobe Announces Photoshop & Lightroom for $9.99/mth
« Reply #97 on: September 06, 2013, 10:17:59 AM »


gbchristie, what version of LR are you using?  The healing brush is supposed to be greatly improved in LR 5.

The healing brush (it is no longer a circle but can be painted and has a very powerful algorithm driving it), the radial filter which was a glaring omission up to now, and smart previews as well as a multitude of nice enhancements make, in my opinion, LR5 the best $99 any keen photographer can spend. The latest improvements make PS less and less necessary for the "average" keen photographer, very high quality full edits can now be done 100% in LR5, as can top grade proofed and profiled printing, and it is a very competent DAM.

Sure Photo Mechanic might be a faster dedicated DAM, but how many of us need to ingest hundreds/thousands of files for fast edits that PM can't then do? Custom metadata and IPTC info etc, that can all be done just as effectively with an intelligent customised workflow in Lightroom. If you have any issue with LR you can guarantee there are serious pros that have designed better workflow options than you are using. There a lot of high volume pros now only using Lightroom and they are happy to share their workflow solutions, check out Creative Live or Pye over at the SLRLounge for several completely different high volume workflows. LR is not an RIP either but it makes superb prints. If you need that last 5 or so % of performance in any area you need to spend to get it, but as a rounded photography package Lightroom really is a very good complete solution, especially when you factor in the plug in options and capabilities for diverse interests.

Hate Adobe all you like, even if the majority of people here are not their key market and rarely pay them retail price for the software, but for keen amateurs/semi pros, hobbyists et al, Adobe have bent over backwards to facilitate you not giving them more money. Name me one other software company that spend their time and money developing a standard, then makes it open, then gives you a free convertor that they fully support with the very latest cameras, also for free, so you can use new camera files on their old software? Give me an example of Apple/Microsoft etc etc doing that.

Adobe bashing gets very boring, if you are not a retail CS5 or CS6 owner you haven't given Adobe a decent amount of money for what they currently sell, they have moved on so get over it. If you are not a retail CS5 or CS6 purchaser and you are here then you probably are the target market for Lightroom 5, at this point LR5 seems to be the best product in its class and price point.
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Re: Adobe Announces Photoshop & Lightroom for $9.99/mth
« Reply #98 on: September 06, 2013, 10:29:18 AM »
A better deal: $19.99/month for the entire CC suite under a student and teacher license.

I think this is a price reduction (not sure, but I thought it was $29.99 last month). Go register for a class at your local community college and sign up for this.

http://www.adobe.com/products/creativecloud/students.edu.html?sdid=KHBIT
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Re: Adobe Announces Photoshop & Lightroom for $9.99/mth
« Reply #99 on: September 06, 2013, 11:16:20 AM »
I refuse to RENT software.....and have the possibility that if for any reason I cease to pay Adobe 'ransom', that I may no longer be able to open and work on my files.

Ever leased a car? Or financed a purchase? They will take it away if you don't pay. Or make it inoperative remotely (I'm sure that's coming if it isn't already here). Why is software different?

I know that I'm late to this party but just to be a devil's advocate here, kindly tell me what software you actually OWN.

Unless you've written it yourself, the answer is probably none. You merely own a perpetual license. Basically that means you've rented it for life. You have no ownership rights. None. Zilch. Nada. And, there are no guarantees that it will work on your next computer with a new operating system, and no guarantees that security updates will be available in perpetuity. There's not even a guarantee that your really old versions of LR and PS will work with modern RAW files though they likely will.

I own a small web hosting business. I OWN a perpetual license for the software I use - http://www.whmcs.com/, but I pay an annual fee if I want updates. It's the best package for small web hosts and when security holes are found (and they exist in almost ALL PHP software) they are plugged much faster than Microsoft patches Windows 7. Much faster. We're talking hours usually. That's a cost of doing business. I also pay a monthly fee for cPanel which is installed on each of my lower end servers. I pay annual fees for other add on packages like Softaculous. Again, a cost of doing business.

I also, for fun, run a web forum totally unrelated to Canon and photography. It uses a commercial software forum package - http://www.invisionpower.com/ - for which I have a permanent license. I still pay semiannual fees for upgrades and other services.

Have you ever gone to see the same movie twice? Did they let you in free the second time? The third time?

This is $120/year! $10/month! If you're having to choose between your Adobe license and food, then by all means eat! Lightroom is about $80 to upgrade if I recall correctly. For a little more each year you can get access to Photoshop as well, along with every major and minor upgrade. It's actually a good deal. How much did the last "L" lens you bought cost? Or the last EOS body (M doesn't count)?

So you can refuse to "rent" software, but understand this is the way many big software packages will be sold in the future. It's a good model for software developers as they can anticipate a steady stream of income. It's good for users too because major and minor updates are always available, along with security patches, and because it's easy to switch to the competition. If you've paid $1000+ for Adobe CS6 you might not be as quick to switch.
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Re: Adobe Announces Photoshop & Lightroom for $9.99/mth
« Reply #100 on: September 06, 2013, 12:04:48 PM »
Adobe is being very clear about the price being "not introductory." They go back on that at the risk of a heap of bad PR, but of course in life their are no guarantees. If the price goes up later, I'll re-evaluate. I disagree with what some others have said about this being a "trap" or you'll have no choice if/when Adobe raises prices. You ALWAYS have a choice, AS LONG AS you take steps to maintain your independence. Here, I'm thinking of using the "maximize compatibility" option when you save out Photoshop files, and saving your photo Raw files outside of a proprietary database. (Exporting edited Raws as .DNG is worth considering here, as I expect your Lightroom edits will be preserved if you open them in Adobe Camera Raw later.)

The biggest risk I see is Lightroom. There's a good chance that LR6 will be Cloud-Only. At which point you install it, it upgrades your LR5 catalog and you are stuck. There will be no legal way to get at your lightroom catalog without continuing to pay Adobe.

Photoshop has some of the same issues, you can create files that presumably use features only available in CC and those won't open properly in CS6. Though that's pretty unlikely at this point as most CS6 files open well in CS3 so it's likely we've got a fair few years before that comes into play.

I think you are right that Adobe would look bad if they hiked the price up dramatically. I don't really mind if it goes to $11 next year, but I do worry that they could release LR6, then discontinue this bundle and force us onto the full creative suite.

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Re: Adobe Announces Photoshop & Lightroom for $9.99/mth
« Reply #101 on: September 06, 2013, 12:08:13 PM »
I refuse to RENT software.....and have the possibility that if for any reason I cease to pay Adobe 'ransom', that I may no longer be able to open and work on my files.

Ever leased a car? Or financed a purchase? They will take it away if you don't pay. Or make it inoperative remotely (I'm sure that's coming if it isn't already here). Why is software different?

I know that I'm late to this party but just to be a devil's advocate here, kindly tell me what software you actually OWN.

Unless you've written it yourself, the answer is probably none. You merely own a perpetual license. Basically that means you've rented it for life. You have no ownership rights. None. Zilch. Nada. And, there are no guarantees that it will work on your next computer with a new operating system, and no guarantees that security updates will be available in perpetuity. There's not even a guarantee that your really old versions of LR and PS will work with modern RAW files though they likely will.

I own a small web hosting business. I OWN a perpetual license for the software I use - http://www.whmcs.com/, but I pay an annual fee if I want updates. It's the best package for small web hosts and when security holes are found (and they exist in almost ALL PHP software) they are plugged much faster than Microsoft patches Windows 7. Much faster. We're talking hours usually. That's a cost of doing business. I also pay a monthly fee for cPanel which is installed on each of my lower end servers. I pay annual fees for other add on packages like Softaculous. Again, a cost of doing business.

I also, for fun, run a web forum totally unrelated to Canon and photography. It uses a commercial software forum package - http://www.invisionpower.com/ - for which I have a permanent license. I still pay semiannual fees for upgrades and other services.

Have you ever gone to see the same movie twice? Did they let you in free the second time? The third time?

This is $120/year! $10/month! If you're having to choose between your Adobe license and food, then by all means eat! Lightroom is about $80 to upgrade if I recall correctly. For a little more each year you can get access to Photoshop as well, along with every major and minor upgrade. It's actually a good deal. How much did the last "L" lens you bought cost? Or the last EOS body (M doesn't count)?

So you can refuse to "rent" software, but understand this is the way many big software packages will be sold in the future. It's a good model for software developers as they can anticipate a steady stream of income. It's good for users too because major and minor updates are always available, along with security patches, and because it's easy to switch to the competition. If you've paid $1000+ for Adobe CS6 you might not be as quick to switch.

Leaving aside the differences and discussion between perpetual license and actual ownership of software, the thing that many of us are wary of is that when we stop paying, we stop being able to use the software. If I'm a hobbyist (I am), don't make any money at it, but I still want to use LR and/or PS for some things and am content with the last version I got (PS CS5 through Elements upgrade special), then while I might like the latest version of PS, I use it rarely enough that it doesn't make any sense.

If I were just getting started, said great, I can get it all and started using it. However 6 months later I have money issues and need to stop paying for it (since I don't make any/much money at it), then suddenly I stop being able to use it. If all I really used was Lightroom, sure, I can still get the perpetual license but now I have no money to buy that.

Perhaps the above is a bit muddled, but trying to sum it up clearer, the issue I have is that I rarely use PS, and don't really need the latest version. For Lightroom, if a new version is released every 1.5-2 years, it's still quite a bit more costly (on the order of double or more) to use CC than to simply buy the perpetual license. And then I still need to pay that monthly fee forever if I want to keep using LR. If I find that LR5 has everything I want and don't need to upgrade to LR6 because it doesn't offer me enough of a value proposition, I just don't buy it. Instead, with CC, I have to keep paying for it. No choice. Sure, I get the LR6 additions, but if they offered me no great incentive to upgrade in the first place I may not even use them but I'm still paying.
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Re: Adobe Announces Photoshop & Lightroom for $9.99/mth
« Reply #102 on: September 06, 2013, 01:02:56 PM »


The biggest risk I see is Lightroom. There's a good chance that LR6 will be Cloud-Only. At which point you install it, it upgrades your LR5 catalog and you are stuck. There will be no legal way to get at your lightroom catalog without continuing to pay Adobe.

Photoshop has some of the same issues, you can create files that presumably use features only available in CC and those won't open properly in CS6. Though that's pretty unlikely at this point as most CS6 files open well in CS3 so it's likely we've got a fair few years before that comes into play.

I think you are right that Adobe would look bad if they hiked the price up dramatically. I don't really mind if it goes to $11 next year, but I do worry that they could release LR6, then discontinue this bundle and force us onto the full creative suite.

Unless you copy your LR5 library first! But then so many of these objections are just emotional outbursts with no facts or rational thought behind them. I still have LR2/LR3/LR4 and LR5 catalogs stored should I ever need or want to open a legacy program that is far more likely to be rendered non functional by Microsoft or Apple.

CC files open fine in CS6.
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Re: Adobe Announces Photoshop & Lightroom for $9.99/mth
« Reply #102 on: September 06, 2013, 01:02:56 PM »

Jim O

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Re: Adobe Announces Photoshop & Lightroom for $9.99/mth
« Reply #103 on: September 06, 2013, 01:34:52 PM »
Leaving aside the differences and discussion between perpetual license and actual ownership of software

You can't leave it aside. It's a fact.

While I agree with most of what you say, if you want the upgrades from CS3 or CS4, this is a good deal. CS5 it maybe worth waiting.

My understanding is that LR will continue to be marketed as a standalone product, and as part of CC. The rest of CC will not. As I understand it, CS6 is to be the last release in the "CS" series. If all you want is LR this is not a good deal. If you use PS, this is a good deal.

LR, while used by many pros, is positioned to compete with Aperture and other programs like that, which are in large use by non-professionals as well.

BTW, LR versions 4 and 5 were 14 months apart. Version 5 is really an improvement to me. Who knows when 6 will come out?

Adobe's target is not people who do not want to spend $10/month on their software. That is plain and simple.

I'm all in favor of free and open source software (FOSS), but the truth is, my FreeBSD 9.1 desktop that I mostly use as an NAS device, can't beat my Mac.

And again, I'll point out, there is no guarantee that your version of PS will work on the next version of your OS, or the one after that. As long as you are happy with it though, there is no point in CC. I will say that I have generally done an upgrade every other CS cycle. I was still on CS4 and was considering CS6 or waiting since I also was content. With the incentive I got, CC made sense for me. The CS4 to CC upgrade will likely cost me less than the upgrade to CS6 would have, and eventually I would have had to move to CC if I wanted newer features, say in three years or so. Instead, I got the newest LR and PS, and a few things that I use only on occasion. I also get upgrades regularly and semi-automatically with the cloud app that runs on my Mac.

My frustration here is not with you or with Cayenne, but rather a general one. This is a gearhead forum. Let's take you for instance. Again, not to pick on you, but you have the following listed in your signature:

Quote
5D mark 2, 5D mark 3, EF 17-40mm f/4L,  EF 24-105mm f/4L IS USM, EF 135mm f/2L, EF 85mm f/1.8

That's perhaps over $7000 worth of gear that you use to make images. By this forum's standards that may be less than average.

I find it so incredibly ironic that people with so many thousands of dollars worth of gear don't find the software that they use regularly to be worth $10/month. Not just you, but so many people in this thread. C'mon now. How many of you smoke? Subscribe to HBO? Subscribe to Netflix?

I understand it's a change, a paradigm shift for many of you, but look at the numbers. They aren't big.
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Re: Adobe Announces Photoshop & Lightroom for $9.99/mth
« Reply #104 on: September 06, 2013, 01:41:01 PM »
The biggest risk I see is Lightroom. There's a good chance that LR6 will be Cloud-Only.

Please see my earlier post above. Also see http://blogs.adobe.com/lightroomjournal/2013/05/lightroom-and-the-creative-cloud.html and scroll down to the sixth question:

Quote
Q. Will Lightroom become a subscription only offering after Lightroom 5?

A. Future versions of Lightroom will be made available via traditional perpetual licenses indefinitely.

Your comment was pure speculation and not based on any research. If Adobe is lying in this matter it will bite them in the ass. LR is a money maker for them.

LR competes in a different market than does the rest of CC. If they put it strictly in CC they lose to Aperture and other products. It makes no business sense.
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Re: Adobe Announces Photoshop & Lightroom for $9.99/mth
« Reply #104 on: September 06, 2013, 01:41:01 PM »