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Author Topic: Canon 70D vs Nikon D7100 Epic Shootout  (Read 7928 times)

Harald Wiking

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Re: Canon 70D vs Nikon D7100 Epic Shootout
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2013, 05:12:40 PM »
The green/yellow  cast in Nikon, which profile did you use in the test?
nice work anywhay

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Re: Canon 70D vs Nikon D7100 Epic Shootout
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2013, 05:12:40 PM »

MichaelTheMaven

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Re: Canon 70D vs Nikon D7100 Epic Shootout
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2013, 08:34:08 PM »
All good questions. I will try to answer them the best I can:

- The lenses used were both 24-70 2.8 from their respective companies, in the case of the Canon it was the L II
- I used AWB (Ill explain why in a second)
- I used the Standard, default picture style on both cameras
- Could the green tint be fixed by shifting the WB, styles, or other settings? Probably, the one problem there is being able to say "this is how you do it in every case" as many users may be having different experiences depending on their lighting, lens, subject matter etc. So I try to stick more with "this is what I am seeing"

I believe the green cast is part of the camera's processing for 2 reasons:

1. Im not seeing it through the lens when the picture is taken.
2. The intensity of the green shade seems to be amplified with greater ISO. If you look carefully at the ISO color charts, you can visibly see this amplification happening each step up, both in the green swatch as well as the black border. It is also demonstrated with the ISO of the model at 400.

The suggestion on the RAW files is also appreciated and I know where you are coming from. I think the next time I do a buffer test it will be with JPEG only and RAW only.

I am hesitant to use many RAW images for analysis in these comparisons for a few assumptions (which also may be incorrect):

1. Everyone has a different way to process RAW, and in many cases, some people will be more or less effective & creative in processing RAW files than others. The variation you can get between someone who really knows what they are doing in RAW vs someone who doesn't is pretty wide.
2. Even converting the RAW files into JPEGs to display in the video often changes how they look comparatively. 
3. I'm more interested in what the processors are doing in camera, as the typical user (example: soccer mom) wont even use RAW files.

Part of my shooting philosophy is that the more changes you have to make to a camera right out of the box, for example, changing WB for every lighting condition, changing & tweaking picture styles, converting RAW files a certain way is all useful and relevant, but the vast majority of users of these cameras do not want to have to change anything.

They want to open the box, shoot and get results and that is what I try to stick as close to as possible, what the "real world experience" with the camera will be, not so much how someone with an advanced knowledge will be able to "tweak it". I personally do not like changing WB and if I have a camera that requires it, I see this as a disadvantage, so I tend to shoot with AWB on both cameras to see how they differ. If that makes sense.

Im absolutely open to any ideas you guys have in terms of testing, and have implemented many. I really do want to make these tests as high quality as possible, so I certain appreciate your comments & feedback.

M




thgmuffin

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Re: Canon 70D vs Nikon D7100 Epic Shootout
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2013, 03:50:11 AM »
Thanks for the informative review Michael!

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Re: Canon 70D vs Nikon D7100 Epic Shootout
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2013, 09:43:15 AM »

I am hesitant to use many RAW images for analysis in these comparisons for a few assumptions (which also may be incorrect):

1. Everyone has a different way to process RAW, and in many cases, some people will be more or less effective & creative in processing RAW files than others. The variation you can get between someone who really knows what they are doing in RAW vs someone who doesn't is pretty wide.
2. Even converting the RAW files into JPEGs to display in the video often changes how they look comparatively. 
3. I'm more interested in what the processors are doing in camera, as the typical user (example: soccer mom) wont even use RAW files.


That all makes sense to me, and the "soccer mom" model may well be as good a target audience as any (assuming such a buyer seeks out reviews such as yours in the first place!); it underlines the point that comparing image quality is difficult given the almost infinite number of variables a user can play with.  But maybe next time, if you have the time, you could toss in a couple of minimally processed (e.g. nothing more than LR's default import settings) RAW files along with the rest.

If you want to see if Rockwell's "fix" for the green bias works on the D7100, here's his recipe for the D600 (I've no idea how well it works there, either):

MENU > SHOOTING > White Balance > AUTO > right click to AUTO Normal > right click to the rainbow chart > click one down to M1 > OK.

Set M1, and the green goes away and the LCD looks fine. My biggest whines about this is that we ought not have to tweak it to get neutral color, and when we do tweak it, exactly like the other 2012 FX Nikons, the jump between M0 and M1 isn't fine enough to let me dial-out the green exactly how I'd like it dialed out.

GmwDarkroom

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Re: Canon 70D vs Nikon D7100 Epic Shootout
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2013, 11:35:53 AM »
Michael,

Excellent review.  As a 60D user, I was very interested in the performance of the 70D for the in-field performance and the IQ -- the latter of which seems to be incremental.  The AF and field handling look like winners, though.

Question:  Does the live view give quick focusing on the "first focus"?  I know Canon said that the smooth focus changes were there intentionally, but does it snap to the first selection between shots well?

My debate for the next camera continues to be 70D, 6D, or -- pie in the sky -- 5D3.  Unfortunately, nobody can do that comparison test but me and my wallet.   ;D

MichaelTheMaven

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Re: Canon 70D vs Nikon D7100 Epic Shootout
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2013, 06:28:05 AM »
Question:  Does the live view give quick focusing on the "first focus"?  I know Canon said that the smooth focus changes were there intentionally, but does it snap to the first selection between shots well?

Question- It kind of depends on a few things. I am learning that it helps to have your subject fill the frame, when it gets small is when it gets erratic, it isn't so much distance, its how large the subject is in the frame. The amount of contrast also seems to play a role, a hard edge seems to focus quicker than say a grey wall.


I am hesitant to use many RAW images for analysis in these comparisons for a few assumptions (which also may be incorrect):

1. Everyone has a different way to process RAW, and in many cases, some people will be more or less effective & creative in processing RAW files than others. The variation you can get between someone who really knows what they are doing in RAW vs someone who doesn't is pretty wide.
2. Even converting the RAW files into JPEGs to display in the video often changes how they look comparatively. 
3. I'm more interested in what the processors are doing in camera, as the typical user (example: soccer mom) wont even use RAW files.


That all makes sense to me, and the "soccer mom" model may well be as good a target audience as any (assuming such a buyer seeks out reviews such as yours in the first place!); it underlines the point that comparing image quality is difficult given the almost infinite number of variables a user can play with.  But maybe next time, if you have the time, you could toss in a couple of minimally processed (e.g. nothing more than LR's default import settings) RAW files along with the rest.

If you want to see if Rockwell's "fix" for the green bias works on the D7100, here's his recipe for the D600 (I've no idea how well it works there, either):

MENU > SHOOTING > White Balance > AUTO > right click to AUTO Normal > right click to the rainbow chart > click one down to M1 > OK.

Set M1, and the green goes away and the LCD looks fine. My biggest whines about this is that we ought not have to tweak it to get neutral color, and when we do tweak it, exactly like the other 2012 FX Nikons, the jump between M0 and M1 isn't fine enough to let me dial-out the green exactly how I'd like it dialed out.

Good info worth sharing. Thank you!

ams2d

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Re: Canon 70D vs Nikon D7100 Epic Shootout
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2013, 08:56:59 AM »
Worse video ever!

Joking!  Just tossed in a contrast to the amount of accolades you’ve received for the video so far (add mine as well) and will continue to receive.   

Though the 70D was the winner there still are areas where the D7100 is better and hopefully the next versions of each will push the difference closer.  IMO the decision on which one you buy may come down to what you have currently.  If you have Nikon lenses then unless you are willing to sell and move to Canon, you stick with the D7100 unless you are willing to buy new glass along with the 70D body and the same applies if you have a Canon.

One question about the buffer test.  Did you do, for your own information, a RAW only test for each camera?  Curious if the shots where the buffer was reached was the same as the RAW+JPG or I would guess would be a few more shots.

Thank you again for the informative and balanced video.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 08:59:36 AM by ams2d »
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Re: Canon 70D vs Nikon D7100 Epic Shootout
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2013, 08:56:59 AM »

stolpe

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Re: Canon 70D vs Nikon D7100 Epic Shootout
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2013, 09:26:45 AM »
I like your videos as well, very informative and not Canon or Nikon colored.
It still hurts that Canon haven't cought up on dynamic range and some other stuff, but wer are getting there.
I still love my Canon 5D Mark III camera and won't change brand, it's good with competition as well. It forces Canon to be on their toes or how you say it. (Canon can we please get a focus assist light on our cameras?)

Keep up the good work Michael.

Over and out, Stolpe
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 09:28:27 AM by stolpe »

Rienzphotoz

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Re: Canon 70D vs Nikon D7100 Epic Shootout
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2013, 10:27:55 AM »
Whenever I buy a new lens or a camera, I end up reading/watching reviews but invariably the reviews I read/watch, recommend the product I considered, but did not buy ... take for example my decision to buy Nikon D7100 ... I am primarily a Canon shooter but I went with the Nikon D7100, then comes Michael (and a few other reviewers) who highly recommend the Canon 70D ... what the hell? ;D ... does it ever happen to you guys that you buy something and everything you hear is for the gear you decided against?
Canon 5DMK3 70D G1X | Nikon D610 | Sony a7 | 16-35/2.8LII | 70-200/2.8LISII | 100/2.8LIS | 100-400LIS | 40/2.8 | 50/1.4 | 85/1.8 | 600EX-RTx2 | ST-E3-RT | 24/3.5 T-S | 24-70OSS | 28-300VR | HVL-F43M | Metabones EF adapter | GoPro Black 3+ | DJI Quadcopter | Manfrotto+Gorilap

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Re: Canon 70D vs Nikon D7100 Epic Shootout
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2013, 10:27:55 AM »