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Author Topic: What was the decision to put a crop sensor in the 1D range based upon?  (Read 6427 times)

pwp

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Re: What was the decision to put a crop sensor in the 1D range based upon?
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2013, 07:09:29 PM »
I would like to see a 1.3x sensor in the new 7D, perhaps at 25MP, if only for improved high ISO performance compared to 1.6x. Or, if they can vastly improve 1.6x high ISO, even better.
While the 7D2 is still vapor, rampant speculation is terrific fun. An APS-H 7D2 would be cool, but from a marketing/upgrade path viewpoint this would annoy the hell out of a staggering number of current 7D shooters across the planet with a bag full of EF-S glass. Canon needs to keep them on the logical upgrade path. Such a camera would need to stay true to EF-S.

-PW

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Re: What was the decision to put a crop sensor in the 1D range based upon?
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2013, 07:09:29 PM »

Act444

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Re: What was the decision to put a crop sensor in the 1D range based upon?
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2013, 07:28:22 PM »
^ Ah yes, that's true.

Still, there's always the 70D...BUT, having handled the two cameras there is a significant difference in feel (the 7D handles much more like a "real pro's" camera while the 70D feels more consumer-oriented & plasticky). Both cameras seemed similar in speed though.

Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: What was the decision to put a crop sensor in the 1D range based upon?
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2013, 10:50:24 PM »
Back when the first DSLR's came out in the early to mid 1990's, the APS-H was the largest sensor it was practical to manufacture.
 
I had a 6 mp Kodak DCS 460C with APS-H sensor that originally came out in 1995 and cost $35,500 (I paid $100 a few years ago).  The APS-H sensor was established early on, and was popular. It was basically a digital back that fit a Nikon N90 body with the film back removed.   With the 1D X, it was finally possible to make a fast FF sensor that could be used for sports.
 

 
 

neuroanatomist

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Re: What was the decision to put a crop sensor in the 1D range based upon?
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2013, 12:08:29 AM »
Back when the first DSLR's came out in the early to mid 1990's, the APS-H was the largest sensor it was practical to manufacture.
 
I had a 6 mp Kodak DCS 460C with APS-H sensor that originally came out in 1995 and cost $35,500 (I paid $100 a few years ago).  The APS-H sensor was established early on, and was popular. It was basically a digital back that fit a Nikon N90 body with the film back removed.   With the 1D X, it was finally possible to make a fast FF sensor that could be used for sports.
 


Wow, even then Nikon bodies had lots of buttons.  I line the elegant connection between the halves with the exposed cable, too. Cool stuff!
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AlanF

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Re: What was the decision to put a crop sensor in the 1D range based upon?
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2013, 07:08:45 AM »
Noooooooooooooooooo, don't ask such questions 'round these parts... the APS-H boys will pounce!!!
Ah-ha! Thanks! An APS-H thread!  8)

I've loved the format since it began with the 1D. But sadly it's now consigned to history.  :-[
That's why so many APS-H aficionados are keen to see a true professional level 7DII.

We have our FF bodies for WA, but the x1.3 crop sensor on my 1D4 takes my 70-200 f/2.8 and 300 f/2.8 glass into another universe.

-PW

I have been offered a hardly used 1D4, which I briefly considered because the 1.3x crop would appear to help with bird photography. However, its lower pixel density than the 5DIII means that in practice the effective crop factor is only 1.1. So, I am going to wait for a 7DII to complement my superb 5DIII.
5D III, 70D, Powershot SX50, 300/2.8 II, 1.4xTC III, 2xTC III, 70-200/4 IS, 24-105, 15-85, Sigma 10-20, Tamron 150-600.

KyleSTL

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Re: What was the decision to put a crop sensor in the 1D range based upon?
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2013, 11:15:53 AM »
The first ever production FF DSLR was the Contax N of spring 2002. The 1Ds was the second FF DSLR, launched in September 2002, allowing of EF lenses with the conventional film AoV.

Worth noting that the Contax N used a Phillips CCD sensor, and the 1Ds was CMOS.  Similarly, the original 1D was a CCD sensor (with a 1/500 s Xsync, and made by Panasonic), while the 1D II and subsequent models were CMOS.
Philips ;)


Mark it on the calendar folks, neuro was corrected by another member.  /joking

Neuro, I totally agree with you that the DCS460 was one of the most unelegant designs ever.  However, Canon was not immune to ugly-early-DSLR-syndrome:

DCS 1 / DCS 3 /DCS 5 - http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=2936.msg61510#msg61510
Kodak DCS 520/Canon D2000 - http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/kodakdcs520/
Kodak DCS 560/Canon D6000 - http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/dslr/data/1995-2004/1998_eos-d6000.html?lang=us&categ=crn&page=1995-2004
Look at how far the backs stick out for the DCS 1/3/5 cameras - you'd practically need the EX15 eyepiece extender to even get a complete view.

Even the D30 and D60 had horrible ergonomics for the AF, Drive, and AE butons:

« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 11:40:15 AM by KyleSTL »
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mrsfotografie

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Re: What was the decision to put a crop sensor in the 1D range based upon?
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2013, 11:24:23 AM »
Philips being a Dutch company, I simply had to correct ;) Heheheheh...   8)
5D3, 5D2, Sony α6000, G16 | SY14 f/2.8, Ʃ20 f/1.8, 24 f/2.8, 35 f/2, Ʃ35 f/1.4A, 50 f/1.8 I, Ʃ50 f/1.4 EX, 100L Macro, 17-40L, 24-105L, 70-200 f/2.8L IS II, 1.4x II, 70-300L, 100-400L | E-mount: SY12 f/2, Ʃ19 & 30 f/2.8 EX DN, 16-70 ZA OSS, 55-210 OSS, Metabones SB | FT-QL, AE-1P | FD(n) & FL lenses

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Re: What was the decision to put a crop sensor in the 1D range based upon?
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2013, 11:24:23 AM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: What was the decision to put a crop sensor in the 1D range based upon?
« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2013, 11:40:51 AM »
Philips being a Dutch company, I simply had to correct ;) Heheheheh...   8)

Thanks for the correction.  I guess I have the Dutch to thank for my smooth, Norelco-shaven face...   :D
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Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: What was the decision to put a crop sensor in the 1D range based upon?
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2013, 11:41:05 AM »
Back when the first DSLR's came out in the early to mid 1990's, the APS-H was the largest sensor it was practical to manufacture.
 
I had a 6 mp Kodak DCS 460C with APS-H sensor that originally came out in 1995 and cost $35,500 (I paid $100 a few years ago).  The APS-H sensor was established early on, and was popular. It was basically a digital back that fit a Nikon N90 body with the film back removed.   With the 1D X, it was finally possible to make a fast FF sensor that could be used for sports.
 


Wow, even then Nikon bodies had lots of buttons.  I line the elegant connection between the halves with the exposed cable, too. Cool stuff!

Yes, and if the shutter failed, you just got a different DSLR body and popped off the back door, and mounted it to the Kodak back.  The connecting cable hooked to the existing Nikon port.  It was a really elegant solution for the only 6mp DSLR in 1995.
 
SCSI port, or you could remove the PCMIA Type III card and put it into a reader.  It recorded RAW TIFF files which Adobe Lightroom or Photoshop still reads.  I did not have the cable with the round connector, and could not get the SCSI port to work.
 

 
 
It still takes photos but the image has a reddish tint, which can be corrected.  I expect that the CCD sensor ageing has taken its toll.  :)
 
 

 

mrsfotografie

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Re: What was the decision to put a crop sensor in the 1D range based upon?
« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2013, 11:57:46 AM »
Philips being a Dutch company, I simply had to correct ;) Heheheheh...   8)

Thanks for the correction.  I guess I have the Dutch to thank for my smooth, Norelco-shaven face...   :D

You're welcome of course (and thanks too; for the learning about Norelco; hadn't heard about that before, but then again it's used strictly in the USA...)
5D3, 5D2, Sony α6000, G16 | SY14 f/2.8, Ʃ20 f/1.8, 24 f/2.8, 35 f/2, Ʃ35 f/1.4A, 50 f/1.8 I, Ʃ50 f/1.4 EX, 100L Macro, 17-40L, 24-105L, 70-200 f/2.8L IS II, 1.4x II, 70-300L, 100-400L | E-mount: SY12 f/2, Ʃ19 & 30 f/2.8 EX DN, 16-70 ZA OSS, 55-210 OSS, Metabones SB | FT-QL, AE-1P | FD(n) & FL lenses

mrsfotografie

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Re: What was the decision to put a crop sensor in the 1D range based upon?
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2013, 11:58:40 AM »
Back when the first DSLR's came out in the early to mid 1990's, the APS-H was the largest sensor it was practical to manufacture.
 
I had a 6 mp Kodak DCS 460C with APS-H sensor that originally came out in 1995 and cost $35,500 (I paid $100 a few years ago).  The APS-H sensor was established early on, and was popular. It was basically a digital back that fit a Nikon N90 body with the film back removed.   With the 1D X, it was finally possible to make a fast FF sensor that could be used for sports.
 


Wow, even then Nikon bodies had lots of buttons.  I line the elegant connection between the halves with the exposed cable, too. Cool stuff!

Yes, and if the shutter failed, you just got a different DSLR body and popped off the back door, and mounted it to the Kodak back.  The connecting cable hooked to the existing Nikon port.  It was a really elegant solution for the only 6mp DSLR in 1995.
 
SCSI port, or you could remove the PCMIA Type III card and put it into a reader.  It recorded RAW TIFF files which Adobe Lightroom or Photoshop still reads.  I did not have the cable with the round connector, and could not get the SCSI port to work.
 

 
 
It still takes photos but the image has a reddish tint, which can be corrected.  I expect that the CCD sensor ageing has taken its toll.  :)
 
 


What a MONSTER!!!!
5D3, 5D2, Sony α6000, G16 | SY14 f/2.8, Ʃ20 f/1.8, 24 f/2.8, 35 f/2, Ʃ35 f/1.4A, 50 f/1.8 I, Ʃ50 f/1.4 EX, 100L Macro, 17-40L, 24-105L, 70-200 f/2.8L IS II, 1.4x II, 70-300L, 100-400L | E-mount: SY12 f/2, Ʃ19 & 30 f/2.8 EX DN, 16-70 ZA OSS, 55-210 OSS, Metabones SB | FT-QL, AE-1P | FD(n) & FL lenses

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: What was the decision to put a crop sensor in the 1D range based upon?
« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2013, 03:24:18 PM »
cost and ability to get high fps while keeping a bit more reach

they also got to save on the mechanical mirror box and shutter too, not just the sensor, these are two parts that have real manufacturing costs

Xaaav

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Re: What was the decision to put a crop sensor in the 1D range based upon?
« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2013, 03:34:31 PM »
Hi There,
Reason is not that easy but has has a good reason. Indeed :-)
1D is sport camera for pro, canon knows how to produce good FF sensor and chipset but 1DS3 files are big, and have lot of info on the 21mpx. If you want to get the same resolution with higher FPS, then you need to find a solution as current chipset can t handle 10 images sec with FF Raw 21mpx (if they could at that time it would have been very expensive for the market), best option was to reduce pixel en sensor size, and it gives an extra reach for sport and nature. Also crop are cheaper to produce. Also putting a 7D or 50d sensor in a pro 1D body with high price tag would have been silly... why spending 5 000 usd for same sensor as a 900 usd 50D...

If you note 1DX which is a 12fps >> 14fps you have some limitation
14fps you have to lock autofocus and be jpg
12 fps you have to be below 3200 iso
10fps you can shoot raw and any iso (almost)

Last but not least, EF S lense (entry level quality) on 1D camera (pro) is just like having bicycle wheels on a Porsche Cayenne. You loose most of the advantages..

All is about having good compromise and money wise making sense for the market.

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Re: What was the decision to put a crop sensor in the 1D range based upon?
« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2013, 03:34:31 PM »

AprilForever

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Re: What was the decision to put a crop sensor in the 1D range based upon?
« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2013, 05:10:51 PM »
I have often wondered if Canon would revive the APS-H. They made they fishie lens, what had special markings for it, then abandoned it.  Something I find amusing is to use my 11-16mm Tokina on my 5d mk II. It works to about 14mm, then starts to  vignette. The amount without filter is ok to about 12.5, after which it's just wasting space, except that it becomes maddenling wide angle on the top and bottom of the frame. I would love to try a sigma 8-16 on, but I digress...

 Anyway, what if the 7D mk II were APS-H? Would angle would be workable.... But, would longer become sadder? Mayhap if they increased the pixel density, we could cheer.

My wife has called supper, and, reading htis post, it makes no sense (I work night shift), and must stop become it confuses any more!
What is truth?

RickSpringfield

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Re: What was the decision to put a crop sensor in the 1D range based upon?
« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2013, 08:04:50 AM »
I've never used one but I have used the 1Ds mk3 extensively for the last 4 years. This is a full frame camera but I am lead to believe that the 1D mk3 is a crop sensor? the 1Dx is a full frame but the 1D mk4 is crop and a 1Ds mk4 was never produced.

You are teaching me stuff!  Challenging what I assumed to be FF.  When I read your posts I went here:
http://www.visibledust.com/sensorsizes.php

This shows:
EOS 1Ds Mark III          24 mm approx.         1.0 x
EOS-1D X                  24 mm approx.         1.0 x
EOS 1D Mark III        20 mm approx.         1.3 x
Canon 1D Mark IV        20 mm approx.         1.3 x
EOS-1D C                 24 mm approx.         1.0 x

Is the answer to your question 'Technology available at the time for two different purposes'?  And today they have the X ... FF and Fast.

Makes me wonder what the best portrait/landscape camera in this lineup really is??????  Clearly the winner for Sports/Action is the X.

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Re: What was the decision to put a crop sensor in the 1D range based upon?
« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2013, 08:04:50 AM »