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Author Topic: A New Zoom Macro Coming? [CR1]  (Read 6287 times)

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A New Zoom Macro Coming? [CR1]
« on: September 11, 2013, 02:01:28 PM »

From the land of weird

I received an email today outlining a new macro lens that Canon has in the pipeline and could be released in the next year.


It will be a 1:1 zoom macro, with an aperture of f/4 and IS. No mention of the focal length for the lens. I’m reminded of the now discontinued Nikkor 70-170mm f/4.5-5.6D as a zoom 1:1 macro we’ve seen in the past. A replacement to the 180 f/3.5L perhaps?


A huge grain of salt with this one.


cr


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A New Zoom Macro Coming? [CR1]
« on: September 11, 2013, 02:01:28 PM »

ahsanford

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Re: A New Zoom Macro Coming? [CR1]
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2013, 02:06:43 PM »

If true, perhaps it's like the much-maligned (yet brilliant!) 24-70 F/4 IS macro mode, in which the macro only works on the 70mm end?

Stupid question that I still want an answer to:  Is it possible to have a 1x magnification at more than one focal length in the same lens? 

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Albi86

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Re: A New Zoom Macro Coming? [CR1]
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2013, 02:08:49 PM »
The real question is: what is the advantage of a zoom compared to its long end prime?

mackguyver

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Re: A New Zoom Macro Coming? [CR1]
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2013, 02:09:10 PM »
A huge grain of salt with this one.
That's understatement!  It sure sounds like an odd idea, especially for 1:1, but if it were parfocal, maybe.  A zoom fisheye seemed odd, too (Tokina aside) until the 8-15, so who knows...
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Drizzt321

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Re: A New Zoom Macro Coming? [CR1]
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2013, 02:09:37 PM »

If true, perhaps it's like the much-maligned (yet brilliant!) 24-70 F/4 IS macro mode, in which the macro only works on the 70mm end?

Stupid question that I still want an answer to:  Is it possible to have a 1x magnification at more than one focal length in the same lens? 

- A

Well, they could in theory have a build-in adjustable extension tube that automatically adjusts when in Macro to maintain 1:1 at all focal lengths. Of course, it'd be way cooler if it was free to be at any position so we could get >1:1 magnification at the shorter focal lengths if we wanted. Being cynical, that wouldn't happen because Canon would want another $$$ to 'enable' that feature on a lens because then it's >1:1 so they can charge more.
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ahsanford

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Re: A New Zoom Macro Coming? [CR1]
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2013, 02:12:38 PM »
The real question is: what is the advantage of a zoom compared to its long end prime?

In the choice of a standard zoom vs. standard prime, with a prime you usually can just move your feet to frame.  From what little tripod macro work I've done (as with landscape work on a cliff or prominent vista), some times you can't get the framing right by just moving the tripod or moving your feet -- you need another lens or you need a zoom.

So I see value in this if you shoot a lot of macro, but I'm not a whiz in this arena.  I have the 100L and the 24-70 F/4 IS and I use both for much more than macro.

- A

neuroanatomist

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Re: A New Zoom Macro Coming? [CR1]
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2013, 02:12:56 PM »
Well, the MP-E 65mm f/2.8 1-5x Macro is a macro zoom lens.   ;)
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Re: A New Zoom Macro Coming? [CR1]
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2013, 02:12:56 PM »

RGF

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Re: A New Zoom Macro Coming? [CR1]
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2013, 02:13:46 PM »

If true, perhaps it's like the much-maligned (yet brilliant!) 24-70 F/4 IS macro mode, in which the macro only works on the 70mm end?

Stupid question that I still want an answer to:  Is it possible to have a 1x magnification at more than one focal length in the same lens? 

- A

Well, they could in theory have a build-in adjustable extension tube that automatically adjusts when in Macro to maintain 1:1 at all focal lengths. Of course, it'd be way cooler if it was free to be at any position so we could get >1:1 magnification at the shorter focal lengths if we wanted. Being cynical, that wouldn't happen because Canon would want another $$$ to 'enable' that feature on a lens because then it's >1:1 so they can charge more.

Even if they could do this, what would the IQ be?  Macro tend to be incredibly sharp - could a macro zoom meet this hurdle?

I would like to see a 180-200 macro with Tilt capabilities (don't need shift).  That would help with DOF which is very narrow at magnification

ahsanford

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Re: A New Zoom Macro Coming? [CR1]
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2013, 02:14:13 PM »
Well, the MP-E 65mm f/2.8 1-5x Macro is a macro zoom lens.   ;)

Hell, I always forget that duckbill platypus of a lens.  What a weird piece of kit that is.

- A

RGF

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Re: A New Zoom Macro Coming? [CR1]
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2013, 02:15:46 PM »
Well, the MP-E 65mm f/2.8 1-5x Macro is a macro zoom lens.   ;)

what is the zoom range?  I thought that this was a fixed focual lens and magnification zoom was due to moving in closer to the subject
« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 02:18:31 PM by RGF »

neuroanatomist

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Re: A New Zoom Macro Coming? [CR1]
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2013, 02:18:46 PM »
I would like to see a 180-200 macro with Tilt capabilities (don't need shift).  That would help with DOF which is very narrow at magnification
Probably not as much as you'd think, though.

Privatebydesign quite effectively explained the reasons, so I'll just copy/paste from that post:

Only if the subject is two dimensional, after all tilting doesn't increase dof, it just moves the plane of focus. For instance the ubiquitous fly's eye macro image would gain nothing from tilting.

I am not saying Canon can't or won't do it, they do love their tilt, and macro lenses and combining them would be yet another "because we can" 17mm TS-E moment, but I highly doubt it. Apart from the above mentioned practical use with three dimensional objects there is the MAJOR issue of the J distance and the tilt angle needed at macro distances.

This all falls into the area of Harold Merklinger and his seminal work "How To Focus The View Camera", Everybody, normally with a "knowledgeable" smile, talks of Scheimpflug and his principle, but the really useful guy for us as photographers is Merklinger and his J Point and Hinge Line. See here for a couple of cool gif's and more info http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/using_tilt.html

Basically the longer the focal length the more tilt you need for the same effect, AND, and this is the really important bit for a potential macro tilt lens use, the closer the camera is to the plane of focus the more tilt you need. Bear in mind a 90mm TS-E needs 36º of tilt with a J distance of 6", current Canon T/S lenses have 8º of tilt.
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ahsanford

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Re: A New Zoom Macro Coming? [CR1]
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2013, 02:21:05 PM »
Well, the MP-E 65mm f/2.8 1-5x Macro is a macro zoom lens.   ;)

what is the zoom range?  65 to 330?

The 65mm is really a misnomer with that lens:
http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-MP-E-65mm-1-5x-Macro-Lens-Review.aspx

From that link (read more, of course):  "Canon lists the focal length for this lens as 65mm. It is, but disregard this number for all intents and purposes. Think 1x to 5x magnification. Think 1:1 to 5:1. This lens starts where typical macro lenses stop."

It's a nutty 5:1 macro magnification.  You'd use it to shoot flies' eyeballs, circuit board details, human hairs, etc.  DOF is comically small from what I've read, and it really pushes you to need macro focusing rails, meticulously groom your lighting, stack your focus, all that.  I won't touch that kind of specialized/'engineered' photography with a ten foot pole, but some folks love it.

- A

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Re: A New Zoom Macro Coming? [CR1]
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2013, 02:56:35 PM »
Well, the MP-E 65mm f/2.8 1-5x Macro is a macro zoom lens.   ;)

what is the zoom range?  65 to 330?

The 65mm is really a misnomer with that lens:
http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-MP-E-65mm-1-5x-Macro-Lens-Review.aspx

From that link (read more, of course):  "Canon lists the focal length for this lens as 65mm. It is, but disregard this number for all intents and purposes. Think 1x to 5x magnification. Think 1:1 to 5:1. This lens starts where typical macro lenses stop."

It's a nutty 5:1 macro magnification.  You'd use it to shoot flies' eyeballs, circuit board details, human hairs, etc.  DOF is comically small from what I've read, and it really pushes you to need macro focusing rails, meticulously groom your lighting, stack your focus, all that.  I won't touch that kind of specialized/'engineered' photography with a ten foot pole, but some folks love it.

- A

I have that lens and it's not quite as nutty as you make it seem. It's definitely a challenge, but you can do quite well even without focusing rails and focus stacking.

For those interested in macro shooting with the MP-E 65mm, I highly recommend reading LordV's hints and tips: http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=807056

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Re: A New Zoom Macro Coming? [CR1]
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2013, 02:56:35 PM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: A New Zoom Macro Coming? [CR1]
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2013, 03:05:42 PM »
...you can do quite well even without focusing rails and focus stacking.

Indeed.  These were shot handheld with the MP-E 65mm.


EOS 5D Mark II, MP-E 65mm f/2.8 1-5x Macro @ 5x, 1/60 s, f/11, ISO 400, MT-24EX


EOS 5D Mark II, MP-E 65mm f/2.8 1-5x Macro @ 4x, 1/60 s, f/11, ISO 400, MT-24EX

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RGF

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Re: A New Zoom Macro Coming? [CR1]
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2013, 03:11:44 PM »
I would like to see a 180-200 macro with Tilt capabilities (don't need shift).  That would help with DOF which is very narrow at magnification
Probably not as much as you'd think, though.



Thanks.  Interesting and valuable

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Re: A New Zoom Macro Coming? [CR1]
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2013, 03:11:44 PM »