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Author Topic: 5D3 Shooting in a bar at night: What ISO, Fstop would you guess?  (Read 5912 times)

cayenne

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5D3 Shooting in a bar at night: What ISO, Fstop would you guess?
« on: September 12, 2013, 04:44:58 PM »
I'm going to be helping do a shoot for a charity which involves a bar crawl here in New Orleans.

I'm using my 5D3....as per another thread I've had going, I may be renting a 50L f/1.2 lens to round out what I have:

70-200L f/288
85mm  f/1.8
17-40L f/4

I have the 24-1-5L f/4 kit lens too. I was thinking of taking the first three if I don't get the 50L, which I might, if I did...I might drop the 85mm..maybe?  I will need the 70-200 for earlier in the evening when shooting in daylight to balconies in Jackson Square...

Anyway, I'm going to try to get permission to shoot sample footage in the bars over the next week..but can someone give me some good numbers to try to shoot for so as to get good exposed footage, minimize noise?

I'm going for 24fps.  Setting shutter speed to 50.  I know ISO should be in multiples of 160..does that hold true in HIGH ISO's?  What kind of ISO's am I looking for....at what fstops?

Again, this will be in various bars..some better lit than others, but none of them are going to be terribly bright, lots of neon signs, etc.  I do want to get that ambiance a bit, but I want to also be able to see my people in these....

Again, I'm going to try to go scout and take notes, but looking for suggestions from others as to what settings worked for them in similar situations to give me a good starting point!!

Thanks in advance,

cayenne

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5D3 Shooting in a bar at night: What ISO, Fstop would you guess?
« on: September 12, 2013, 04:44:58 PM »

AmbientLight

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Re: 5D3 Shooting in a bar at night: What ISO, Fstop would you guess?
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2013, 05:31:03 PM »
My only bar shooting experience is some shots taken in Venice, Italy. For me in such situations focal lengths cannot be short enough, because bars in Venice are usually not very large and for using long focal lengths I found myself being to close.

Of course being able to use wide open apertures is also a good idea, especially if you want to have some people in the shot, not just neon signs or reflecting light in arranged glasses and such. I ended up using a 14mm f2.8 on a 7D, sometimes just setting the camera up on a table or on the bar shooting f8, 1/8s, but that's no good for having people in the shot. You will be more efficient using a 24mm f1.4 and/or 35mm f1.4 on your 5D Mark III. I have also used a 24-105mm zoom during that trip to Venice, which is good for close up shots, if you stumble upon something interesting, but I needed to use flash for this and for me this works better in specialized restaurants than in bars. In the attached sample I used f4 1/60s, but in hindsight I rather should have used f8.

I can recommend bringing the 50mm f1.2, because it renders color pretty beautifully, but focal length may be a problem, being almost a bit too long. If you have some space available, this lens might be useful.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 05:36:56 PM by AmbientLight »

sjschall

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Re: 5D3 Shooting in a bar at night: What ISO, Fstop would you guess?
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2013, 06:26:54 PM »
If it were me, I would focus less on correct ISO and shutter speed and more on the story and the framing. What do you want your shots to say? It won't make a big difference at the end if your ISO was a multiple of 160 or not. Don't be afraid to break the rules, you may well have to in order to get the shot. A slower shutter speed will let in a lot more light, and, if the scenes don't have much movement, you'll never be able to tell 1/30th from 1/50th. On the other hand, shooting at 1/60th or 1/100th will accentuate motion, which is a cool look for dancing/sports/etc.

Also, you could bring a light along, which will do wonders. Have fun

Jim Saunders

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Re: 5D3 Shooting in a bar at night: What ISO, Fstop would you guess?
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2013, 07:21:12 PM »
If you can take a flash for the sake of the AF assist lamp you might have more luck.  A 5D2 and a 16-35 had a hard time getting focus in what was a fairly well-lit bar.  The 5D3 might not need it as much but I have no data for comparison.


Jim
I'd probably do better to invest more time and less money.

cayenne

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Re: 5D3 Shooting in a bar at night: What ISO, Fstop would you guess?
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2013, 10:27:45 PM »
If you can take a flash for the sake of the AF assist lamp you might have more luck.  A 5D2 and a 16-35 had a hard time getting focus in what was a fairly well-lit bar.  The 5D3 might not need it as much but I have no data for comparison.


Jim

Remember, this is purely for video....not stills.
:)

Thanks

C

Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: 5D3 Shooting in a bar at night: What ISO, Fstop would you guess?
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2013, 10:32:19 PM »
You should have no issues with your 5D MK III, but at super high ISO settings, there is very little DR, so any lights get blown out if you want to expose dark scenes.  I've used ISO 25600 when I had to, but 12800 works well most of the time. 
 
Movement is the big reason for the super high ISO, people are moving, so you need a fairly fast shutter speed to freeze motion.
 
I think that the 5D MK III can focus fine with something like a 24-70 f/2.8, I stopped using my fast primes after moving from the MK II to the MK III.  They both focused quickly in super low light, and bars are lit well enough that the camera can handle it.

AmbientLight

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Re: 5D3 Shooting in a bar at night: What ISO, Fstop would you guess?
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2013, 05:20:37 AM »
For video work I don't see the point in AF discussions. Your preference should be for a focal length range, which works well in bars.

As a zoom I would recommend the 16-35mm f2.8 so that you are wide enough and still have some possibility to change focal lengths, but your 17-40mm should fill this role in a similar form, so there's no need to purchase anything in a hurry. Using your 24-105mm you will have plenty of flexibility towards longer focal lengths.

I wonder: How much would you be willing to swap lenses to get the better color rendering of say a 50mm f1.2?

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Re: 5D3 Shooting in a bar at night: What ISO, Fstop would you guess?
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2013, 05:20:37 AM »

photonius

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Re: 5D3 Shooting in a bar at night: What ISO, Fstop would you guess?
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2013, 05:45:12 AM »
I'm going to be helping do a shoot for a charity which involves a bar crawl here in New Orleans.

I'm using my 5D3....as per another thread I've had going, I may be renting a 50L f/1.2 lens to round out what I have:

70-200L f/288
85mm  f/1.8
17-40L f/4

I have the 24-1-5L f/4 kit lens too. I was thinking of taking the first three if I don't get the 50L, which I might, if I did...I might drop the 85mm..maybe?  I will need the 70-200 for earlier in the evening when shooting in daylight to balconies in Jackson Square...

Anyway, I'm going to try to get permission to shoot sample footage in the bars over the next week..but can someone give me some good numbers to try to shoot for so as to get good exposed footage, minimize noise?

I'm going for 24fps.  Setting shutter speed to 50.  I know ISO should be in multiples of 160..does that hold true in HIGH ISO's?  What kind of ISO's am I looking for....at what fstops?

Again, this will be in various bars..some better lit than others, but none of them are going to be terribly bright, lots of neon signs, etc.  I do want to get that ambiance a bit, but I want to also be able to see my people in these....

Again, I'm going to try to go scout and take notes, but looking for suggestions from others as to what settings worked for them in similar situations to give me a good starting point!!

Thanks in advance,

cayenne

what hasn't been pointed out is that - while a fast lens is good to let light in - the thin DOF of f1.2 is probably not useful for most of your shots unless you want to focus on portraits where little is in focus.
 

dave

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Re: 5D3 Shooting in a bar at night: What ISO, Fstop would you guess?
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2013, 05:45:23 AM »
For video work I don't see the point in AF discussions. Your preference should be for a focal length range, which works well in bars.

As a zoom I would recommend the 16-35mm f2.8 so that you are wide enough and still have some possibility to change focal lengths, but your 17-40mm should fill this role in a similar form, so there's no need to purchase anything in a hurry. Using your 24-105mm you will have plenty of flexibility towards longer focal lengths.

I wonder: How much would you be willing to swap lenses to get the better color rendering of say a 50mm f1.2?

+1

A shorter focal length has the extra benefit of being easier to manage focus with. You could try renting a Zeiss 35mm 1.4 or 21mm f/2.8. In my experience manual focus with Zeiss lenses is a more user friendly experience.

The 16-35mm is also a good choice as suggested above.

If you are going to use a longer focal length and people are going to be involved in the footage then practice, practice, practice in the meantime.

alexanderferdinand

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Re: 5D3 Shooting in a bar at night: What ISO, Fstop would you guess?
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2013, 07:26:56 AM »
If possible, take a 35L or 24L.
Are you allowed to flash?
If so, fill in some bounced light from a white wall could be helpful.

alexanderferdinand

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Re: 5D3 Shooting in a bar at night: What ISO, Fstop would you guess?
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2013, 07:28:54 AM »
Oops!! Excuse me for the flash!
Didnt notice it is video....


agierke

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Re: 5D3 Shooting in a bar at night: What ISO, Fstop would you guess?
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2013, 10:12:20 AM »
no one can accurately tell you what iso and aperture you should shoot at unless they were familiar with each actual location. lighting varies greatly from location to location and will even vary greatly within each location.

the only answer is shoot at the lowest possible iso at whatever aperture you find effective that will provide good exposure for the chosen shutterspeed. thats it. you got to use your noodle for this. anyone telling you specific isos and apertures is simply taking a stab in the dark (forgive the pun) and if you follow advice like that you probably will not end up with optimal results.

i can tell you this, if you don't have some sort of lighting solution option you are likely to run into scenarios that you just cannot shoot. bars and restaurants have the potential to be brutally dark.
5D3, 5D2, 5DC, sigma 15mm Fish, 24mm TSE, 35mm F1.4L, 85mm F1.8, 24-70mm F2.8L, 70-200mm F2.8L, 580EX, 580EX2, 600EXRT

cayenne

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Re: 5D3 Shooting in a bar at night: What ISO, Fstop would you guess?
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2013, 10:31:02 AM »
For video work I don't see the point in AF discussions. Your preference should be for a focal length range, which works well in bars.

As a zoom I would recommend the 16-35mm f2.8 so that you are wide enough and still have some possibility to change focal lengths, but your 17-40mm should fill this role in a similar form, so there's no need to purchase anything in a hurry. Using your 24-105mm you will have plenty of flexibility towards longer focal lengths.

I wonder: How much would you be willing to swap lenses to get the better color rendering of say a 50mm f1.2?


Thank you for all the replies so far!!!
:)

I am thinking of trying to rent the 50L f/1.2......I had kinda thought that would be short enough to use, but with all the suggestions of the 24L and 35L, hmm....well, I'm trying to decide.

I do have that 17-40L, but at f/4, I'm wondering if it is fast enough.   :-\

Oh well, I'll take some test footage between now and 9/21.  I'll try to take some notes, etc.

I recently got the Sekonic 478DR light meter:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00BBQ8ICY/ref=oh_emp_details_o05__i02?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I pulled it out of the box last night, and am reading up on how to use it...I've never used a light meter before, but this one says it helps with settings for HD video so I'm gonna figure how to use it and test shots out using what it tells me.  Hoping that will help some.

I'd not thought about going as wide angle as some have suggested, I was hoping to travel as light as possible, since this turns into a pub crawl from the French Quarter all the way to the CBD...quite a distance. I have a sling pack which I was gonna bring camera, 3 lenses or so....batteries/ CF cards...and I was going to carry my monopod with the video head.

But I do have the Rokinnon 14mm f/2.8.  I'd thought it would be too wide of a lens, but with the suggestions of wide angle lenses, and with this one being decently fast, perhaps I should consider bringing this? I could shoot wide with it..and crop in as needed in post I guess.

I've never successfully shot at high ISO's so far....when I've tried in the past, I just could not see anything and it was noisy....I've wondered people showing beautiful nighttime street videos show with the 5D3 how they were doing this.

Anyway, gonna practice this weekend and all next week in advance of the shoot.

Again, thank you all so VERY much for the suggestions and advice. Please keep it coming as you think of new things pertinent to my situation here.

cayenne    ;D

PS (edit) I just found the Zeiss 50mm f/1.4 was for rent about the same as the Canon 50L:
http://www.lensrentals.com/rent/canon/lenses/normal-range/zeiss-ze-50mm-f1.4-for-canon

Would anyone suggest I might rent the Zeiss over the Canon?

c
« Last Edit: September 13, 2013, 10:41:08 AM by cayenne »

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Re: 5D3 Shooting in a bar at night: What ISO, Fstop would you guess?
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2013, 10:31:02 AM »

titokane

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Re: 5D3 Shooting in a bar at night: What ISO, Fstop would you guess?
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2013, 10:48:00 AM »
I did a bar crawl with a 50mm 1.4, 6D (very similar ISO performance to 5D3, maybe a tad better), and a monopod, with no external light source. Generally was close to wide open on aperture, 1/50 on shutter, and ISO wherever it needed to be for good exposure (generally multiples of 160). I didn't even bring my zooms because I needed to be extremely mobile and they were too slow, plus stylistically I was ok with shooting 50mm all night.

The person who said you can ignore the 160 rule is not correct if you want the cleanest looking footage possible, especially at lower ISOs and extremely high ISOs. The difference is massive in low-light scenarios. The best values, in order, are 160 - 320 - 640 - 1250 - 1600 - 2000 (weird, right?) - 2500 - 3200 - 5000. Once you get past these you're in inevitably noisy territory, but on the 6D (and I believe on your 5D3 as well) shooting 5000 will shoot a little cleaner than 100, and much cleaner than 125.

50mm was naturally too wide in some situations and too long in others, but I would do this exact same setup again in a heartbeat. As somebody else mentioned, a more versatile setup may be adding a LED light and using the zooms, but I thought I'd share my experience with a similar shoot.

cayenne

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Re: 5D3 Shooting in a bar at night: What ISO, Fstop would you guess?
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2013, 09:51:16 AM »
I did a bar crawl with a 50mm 1.4, 6D (very similar ISO performance to 5D3, maybe a tad better), and a monopod, with no external light source. Generally was close to wide open on aperture, 1/50 on shutter, and ISO wherever it needed to be for good exposure (generally multiples of 160). I didn't even bring my zooms because I needed to be extremely mobile and they were too slow, plus stylistically I was ok with shooting 50mm all night.

The person who said you can ignore the 160 rule is not correct if you want the cleanest looking footage possible, especially at lower ISOs and extremely high ISOs. The difference is massive in low-light scenarios. The best values, in order, are 160 - 320 - 640 - 1250 - 1600 - 2000 (weird, right?) - 2500 - 3200 - 5000. Once you get past these you're in inevitably noisy territory, but on the 6D (and I believe on your 5D3 as well) shooting 5000 will shoot a little cleaner than 100, and much cleaner than 125.

50mm was naturally too wide in some situations and too long in others, but I would do this exact same setup again in a heartbeat. As somebody else mentioned, a more versatile setup may be adding a LED light and using the zooms, but I thought I'd share my experience with a similar shoot.

Thank you VERY much for the info and description of your experience with this.

I'm going to pretty much be a one man band on this...and it is a pub crawl after the initial event, so I'm trying to travel as light as I can...sling bag with room for 5D3, and usually I can carry my 70-200 plus two other regular sized lenses...and will carry my manfroto video mono-pod.

I have a rode videomic pro I was gonna try to use, so, that takes away the top of the camera...but am gonna try to get at least one LED video light to hand carry. Dang, if I had help I could at least bring one light stand and set the LED on that...but hey, gotta work with what I have.

Thanks for the suggestions and info....the event is this Sat (9/21)...so, if anyone has any more advice, please drop a line on the thread here.

Again, thanks to everyone!!

cayenne

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Re: 5D3 Shooting in a bar at night: What ISO, Fstop would you guess?
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2013, 09:51:16 AM »