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Author Topic: Nikon unveils V1 and J1 Mirrorless Cameras  (Read 15412 times)

liberace

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Re: Nikon unveils V1 and J1 Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2011, 07:26:31 AM »
I personally can't see the appeal of APS-C sensors in tiny bodies. They're ridiculous. The 18-200mm lenses for example on the m43 system cameras is laughable. Much more practical to get an actual dSLR.

Nikon's smaller sensor however, allows for genuine miniturisation of interchangeable lense cameras. That said, for the size of their sensor and the slowness of the glass, the lenses really look too big to me, partly diminishing the size advantages.

Plus the bodies look awful.

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Re: Nikon unveils V1 and J1 Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2011, 07:26:31 AM »

wockawocka

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Re: Nikon unveils V1 and J1 Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2011, 07:32:53 AM »
I think this is the thing. Other than pancake lenses I cannot see a valid reason to use 4/3.

Nice jump in IQ granted but for a small jump in size you could have a 5D.
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Gothmoth

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Re: Nikon unveils V1 and J1 Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2011, 08:08:17 AM »
Nikon made a smart business move, to develop a small sensor body, with fast focus and speed. As sensor technology improves - the physical size of the sensor is less meaningful, allowing nikon to provide smaller better quality lenses, and keep costs down. I believe most consumers are not seeking interchangeable lens systems, and do not want to lug around a MFT body and lens. Nikon gives us a smallish body, with super fast performance.

I think this is a very smart business move.

problem is it is not small compared to m43....

m43 has the bigger sensor by similiar sized body+lens combos.
plus m43 has faster lenses.

so there is no reason to buy this nikon system...
beside the 60 FPS that will sure be seen in other (cheaper) P&S cameras soon.

« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 08:12:14 AM by Gothmoth »

djw

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Re: Nikon unveils V1 and J1 Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2011, 08:08:42 AM »
Hi,
    May be Canon can just use the G series and convert it to a mirrorless camera with adapter to use EF/EF-S lens.

     Have a nice day.

I think this would be a good plan for Canon:
  • keep the G series 'feel' and rename/work it a R/'Ranger' series.
  • interchangeable using EF-S (EF would be great!)
  • Ability to have full manual control, audio tags (as per G series) and some of the features from the s100 (e.g. GPS, DIGIC 5) - I think GPS fits in nicely with a rangefinder's traditional 'traveller' feel
  • keep the hotshoe!
  • ... while we are at it add an optional 'motordrive' grip. ;-)

EYEONE

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Re: Nikon unveils V1 and J1 Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2011, 08:43:41 AM »
The V1 maybe the ugliest camera I've ever seen...
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Haydn1971

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Re: Nikon unveils V1 and J1 Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2011, 09:46:28 AM »
Actually, you guys are missing the point here...   Have you seen the tiny size of the 110mm zoom that gives a 35mm equivalent of nearly 300mm in a lens the size of a standard 18-55mm ?  The range also has a powered zoom for video.  Whilst this ain't my thing, I can see it flying out the door as a fancy carry anywhere camera system for folks that don't wish to lug several kg around everywhere.
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neuroanatomist

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Re: Nikon unveils V1 and J1 Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2011, 10:16:44 AM »
Actually, you guys are missing the point here...   Have you seen the tiny size of the 110mm zoom that gives a 35mm equivalent of nearly 300mm in a lens the size of a standard 18-55mm ?  The range also has a powered zoom for video.  Whilst this ain't my thing, I can see it flying out the door as a fancy carry anywhere camera system for folks that don't wish to lug several kg around everywhere.


Right.  But, have you seen the size of the 150mm zoom in the Canon PowerShot SX40 HS that gives a 35mm equivalent of over 800mm in a lens the size of a standard 18-55mm?

The smaller you make the sensor, the smaller the lenses can be...and the lower the IQ.  There are always tradeoffs.  I agree with gmrza on this - it's a tough market segment outside of Japan.  Most people here would be less than thrilled with the IQ delivered by the CX sensor.  At least Nikon released a 'fast' wide angle prime (10mm = 27mm FF-equivalent), but f/2.8 on their CX sensor is equivalent to f/7.6 on FF...not very impressive.

I think Nikon read the Wikipedia section entitled, "...Bridging the gap in sensor sizes," studied this plot:



...and decided, hey, that's where we should put our new sensor format!
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 10:20:36 AM by neuroanatomist »
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Re: Nikon unveils V1 and J1 Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2011, 10:16:44 AM »

K-amps

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Re: Nikon unveils V1 and J1 Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2011, 10:30:21 AM »
.......   but f/2.8 on their CX sensor is equivalent to f/7.6 on FF...not very impressive....


I never knew there was a correlation as direct as that. So if I have a 24-105 f4, is that like f6.4 on a APS-C sensor; or do we need to consider other factors too.

Just learning here... cause then my f4 lens on a 5D is not too bad compared to his 70-200 f2.8 II on his 7D (f4.48 equivalent ?) or should other factors dwarf this correlation?
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 10:33:56 AM by K-amps »
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liberace

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Re: Nikon unveils V1 and J1 Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2011, 10:48:12 AM »
.......   but f/2.8 on their CX sensor is equivalent to f/7.6 on FF...not very impressive....


I never knew there was a correlation as direct as that. So if I have a 24-105 f4, is that like f6.4 on a APS-C sensor; or do we need to consider other factors too.

Just learning here... cause then my f4 lens on a 5D is not too bad compared to his 70-200 f2.8 II on his 7D (f4.48 equivalent ?) or should other factors dwarf this correlation?

This is in terms of Depth of Field only. If you google depth of field and sensor size you should find several calculators to help you.

neuroanatomist

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Re: Nikon unveils V1 and J1 Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2011, 10:55:58 AM »
.......   but f/2.8 on their CX sensor is equivalent to f/7.6 on FF...not very impressive....


I never knew there was a correlation as direct as that. So if I have a 24-105 f4, is that like f6.4 on a APS-C sensor; or do we need to consider other factors too.

Just learning here... cause then my f4 lens on a 5D is not too bad compared to his 70-200 f2.8 II on his 7D (f4.48 equivalent) or should I consider other factors too.

Basically, yes.  But to be clear, the crop factor applies to aperture in terms of depth of field for equivalent subject framing...so, f/2.8 on APS-C gives you the same depth of field that you'd get at f/4.5 on FF, for the same subject framing.  The reason is distance - the crop factor means a narrower angle of view, so to match the framing you need to be further away with APS-C, and that extra distance means a deeper DoF. 

Many people don't realize this.  A great example is people who state they won't upgrade to FF until the 24-70mm has IS, because they want a FF equivalent of the very nice EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS.  What they don't realize is that such an equivalent exists...and is actually better spec'd - the actual FF equivalent of the 17-55mm is a 27-88mm f/4.5, so the 24-105mm is wider, longer, faster, and still has IS plus on the 5DII it will out resolve any APS-C sensor.

The effect of crop factor on aperture does not apply to exposure, though with the better ISO performance of a FF sensor, you can bump up the ISO to compensate for the loss of a 1.3-stops of shutter speed. 
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skitron

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Re: Nikon unveils V1 and J1 Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2011, 11:04:46 AM »
The video OS looks abysmal judging from Nikon's own clips...looks like NEX wins that battle hands down. Plus NEX has APS-C and option for 'real' lens. Hopefully Canon ignores the Nikon formula and goes squarely after Sony.
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K-amps

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Re: Nikon unveils V1 and J1 Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2011, 11:30:26 AM »
.......   but f/2.8 on their CX sensor is equivalent to f/7.6 on FF...not very impressive....


I never knew there was a correlation as direct as that. So if I have a 24-105 f4, is that like f6.4 on a APS-C sensor; or do we need to consider other factors too.

Just learning here... cause then my f4 lens on a 5D is not too bad compared to his 70-200 f2.8 II on his 7D (f4.48 equivalent) or should I consider other factors too.

Basically, yes.  But to be clear, the crop factor applies to aperture in terms of depth of field for equivalent subject framing...so, f/2.8 on APS-C gives you the same depth of field that you'd get at f/4.5 on FF, for the same subject framing.  The reason is distance - the crop factor means a narrower angle of view, so to match the framing you need to be further away with APS-C, and that extra distance means a deeper DoF. 

Many people don't realize this.  A great example is people who state they won't upgrade to FF until the 24-70mm has IS, because they want a FF equivalent of the very nice EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS.  What they don't realize is that such an equivalent exists...and is actually better spec'd - the actual FF equivalent of the 17-55mm is a 27-88mm f/4.5, so the 24-105mm is wider, longer, faster, and still has IS plus on the 5DII it will out resolve any APS-C sensor.

The effect of crop factor on aperture does not apply to exposure, though with the better ISO performance of a FF sensor, you can bump up the ISO to compensate for the loss of a 1.3-stops of shutter speed.

 I was thinking the exposure, but this clears it, thanks neuro and Liberace
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UncleFester

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Re: Nikon unveils V1 and J1 Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2011, 12:32:56 PM »
Just saw this on Engadget!

http://www.engadget.com/2011/09/21/nikon-unveils-v1-and-j1-mirrorless-cameras-10-1mp-cmos-2-7-inc/




Nikon made a smart business move, to develop a small sensor body, with fast focus and speed. As sensor technology improves - the physical size of the sensor is less meaningful, allowing nikon to provide smaller better quality lenses, and keep costs down. I believe most consumers are not seeking interchangeable lens systems, and do not want to lug around a MFT body and lens. Nikon gives us a smallish body, with super fast performance.

I think this is a very smart business move.





Of course it is! Big corps couldn't survive many dumb moves. This is clearly aimed at a target audience. Just look at the colors. They'll sell everyone they build.

The kicker is...there are dslr users who've bought into this idea  and irregardless of it's shortcomings, will just have to have one to "throw in the bag".  It's win/win for Nikon. They know this. They're not dummies. And they'll laugh all the way to the bank.

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Re: Nikon unveils V1 and J1 Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2011, 12:32:56 PM »

Gothmoth

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Re: Nikon unveils V1 and J1 Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2011, 12:43:28 PM »
Quote
Of course it is! Big corps couldn't survive many dumb moves. This is clearly aimed at a target audience. Just look at the colors. They'll sell everyone they build.

well i think i can talk enough customers into buying these cameras if i want too.

BUT if i do my job and give proper information to my customers, i think most who are willing to buy into a system would buy a different camera.

there is not much beside the name, 60 FPS, the yet to seen AF, that makes this looks good compared to a PEN.



« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 12:46:12 PM by Gothmoth »

mackguyver

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Re: Nikon unveils V1 and J1 Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2011, 12:46:04 PM »
Interesting move by Nikon but I think the pricing is way off for those wanting to move up.  I followed this path from compact to 5DMkII and while I went back (in size) to buy a Panasonic LX-5 for my pocket, I can't imagine paying these prices (i.e. more than a small SLR) for a travel or upgrade path camera.  I realize they can't cannibalize their entry SLRs, but without high IQ, I don't see a compelling upgrade path.
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Re: Nikon unveils V1 and J1 Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2011, 12:46:04 PM »