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Author Topic: the future of 1.2 L lenses ?  (Read 9634 times)

Random Orbits

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Re: the future of 1.2 L lenses ?
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2013, 03:03:23 PM »
The problem is, the best autofocus available is only going to do so much with such shallow depth of field.  If we were talking a supertelephoto lens at a daytime sporting event, then yes the 5D3 would very much be the better camera.  But for these slow AF portrait lenses, there's not that much advantage to having those 60 AF points.  One or more of them might pick something you don't want it to focus on...so if you're going to limit the points in use, on a stationary or slow moving subject (person)...then there isn't really an AF advantage with the 5D3, in my opinion.  Indeed there might be a disadvantage in very low light...and certainly there is no significant image quality advantage at low ISO, and really none at all at higher ISO.

He would be better off at least buying a 6D as his "second" camera, rather than worrying about f/1.2L lens obsolescence on his existing and highly compromised-IQ crop bodies...using them as his second body(s).  This whole thread is rather silly (L lens obsolescence).

Yes, I loved getting the ear or nose in focus when using the 5D II's outer points with fast glass when aimed at the eye, or relying on spray and pray for a still object.

The 5D III gives you more freedom in composing the image because the camera still autofocuses accurately using outer points.  And AI servo is useable with the outer points as well which makes it much easier photographying young kids whose "sitting still" is not still.

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Re: the future of 1.2 L lenses ?
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2013, 03:03:23 PM »

steliosk

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Re: the future of 1.2 L lenses ?
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2013, 03:03:30 PM »
At f/1.2 focus accuracy is only going to be so accurate ...

That´s the main point. If you are looking to get the f1.2 lenses, you should have the best available AF, to cope with the very shallow DOF. And if you can´t afford the 1DX, then 5DIII is next in line.

that is why i chose 5D3 over the 6D. Plus the ergonomics. ok the 6D is probably a stop better at high ISO, but i really needed the dual card and the AF system of 5D. I've searched it a lot, even here in canonforum before i make a decision on which camera should i buy.

Anyway, i tried the 85 1.8 at 1.8 and it focus accurately. So i'm thinking the f/1.2 would make a perfect combo with the AF of 5D3.

and as much as i read there will be no successors to these lenses any time soon, so i'm going for it.
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neuroanatomist

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Re: the future of 1.2 L lenses ?
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2013, 04:12:01 PM »
At f/1.2 focus accuracy is only going to be so accurate.

That´s the main point. If you are looking to get the f1.2 lenses, you should have the best available AF, to cope with the very shallow DOF. And if you can´t afford the 1DX, then 5DIII is next in line.

^^ This.  AF point accuracy is determined by the 'baseline' - an f/2.8 line is more accurate than an f/4 line, which is in turn more accurate than an f/5.6 line.  If your subject happens to be near the center of the frame, the 5DIII has five f/2.8 cross-type, dual-orientation points there, the 6D has...one f/2.8 single orientation line (and a less accurate f/5.6 cross).  If your subject is near a rule-of-thirds intersection, the 5DIII has a cross-type dual-orientation point with an f/4 line and an f/5.6 line, and the 6D has...no AF point at all near the rule-of-thirds intersection (the closest AF point is an f/5.6 single-orientation line), and not having an AF point on your subject means focus-recompose, and that means backfocus at f/1.2. 

There's not that much difference.  The 5D3 is not a much better camera, where image quality is concerned.  In fact it's less better.

I don't consider a misfocused shot to have better image quality than a properly focused shot.  There's more to capturing an image than the sensor (and the difference between the image sensors is less than the difference between the AF sensors).
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asmundma

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Re: the future of 1.2 L lenses ?
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2013, 04:57:49 PM »
At f/1.2 focus accuracy is only going to be so accurate.

That´s the main point. If you are looking to get the f1.2 lenses, you should have the best available AF, to cope with the very shallow DOF. And if you can´t afford the 1DX, then 5DIII is next in line.

^^ This.  AF point accuracy is determined by the 'baseline' - an f/2.8 line is more accurate than an f/4 line, which is in turn more accurate than an f/5.6 line.  If your subject happens to be near the center of the frame, the 5DIII has five f/2.8 cross-type, dual-orientation points there, the 6D has...one f/2.8 single orientation line (and a less accurate f/5.6 cross).  If your subject is near a rule-of-thirds intersection, the 5DIII has a cross-type dual-orientation point with an f/4 line and an f/5.6 line, and the 6D has...no AF point at all near the rule-of-thirds intersection (the closest AF point is an f/5.6 single-orientation line), and not having an AF point on your subject means focus-recompose, and that means backfocus at f/1.2. 

There's not that much difference.  The 5D3 is not a much better camera, where image quality is concerned.  In fact it's less better.

I don't consider a misfocused shot to have better image quality than a properly focused shot.  There's more to capturing an image than the sensor (and the difference between the image sensors is less than the difference between the AF sensors).

Agree.
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Re: the future of 1.2 L lenses ?
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2013, 06:17:54 PM »



^^ This.  AF point accuracy is determined by the 'baseline' - an f/2.8 line is more accurate than an f/4 line, which is in turn more accurate than an f/5.6 line.  If your subject happens to be near the center of the frame, the 5DIII has five f/2.8 cross-type, dual-orientation points there, the 6D has...one f/2.8 single orientation line (and a less accurate f/5.6 cross).  If your subject is near a rule-of-thirds intersection, the 5DIII has a cross-type dual-orientation point with an f/4 line and an f/5.6 line, and the 6D has...no AF point at all near the rule-of-thirds intersection (the closest AF point is an f/5.6 single-orientation line), and not having an AF point on your subject means focus-recompose, and that means backfocus at f/1.2. 


What is the baseline of a 70D in liveview?  Does the lens aperture actually matter?  I'm waiting to see some comparisons of focus accuracy with fast lenses versus the older PDAF.
 
So far, I've read Brian's review in TDP, and recall that he noted that AF in liveview was not as accurate based on the number of keepers he had while photographing a horse show.
 
I wonder if the technology is so limited by the manufacturing tolerances and the tiny baseline that is incredibly small.
 
Maybe I misunderstand how the baseline works in a 70D live autofocus.

neuroanatomist

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Re: the future of 1.2 L lenses ?
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2013, 08:08:39 PM »
What is the baseline of a 70D in liveview?  Does the lens aperture actually matter? 

Maybe I misunderstand how the baseline works in a 70D live autofocus.

I haven't come across a detailed enough technical discussion to feel that I knwo enough about how the technology works, so all I can really do is speculate...

The narrower the aperture, the smaller the physical separation between the two parts of the phase detector - the halves of an f/2.8 line are much further apart (they're at the edges of the AF sensor) than the halves of an f/5.6 line.  But the pixel density of the sensor line itself also plays a role (that's how some 1-series bodies achieve f/8 AF).  The fact that PDAF works with max apertures as narrow as f/11 suggests a small baseline...but Canon's graphics imply that the baseline is a single pixel, and I don't think that's possible.  Rather, I suspect small, physically separate pixel arrays are used as the phase detection elements, and the baseline is variable based on the max aperture of the lens in use.  That would mean the baseline is appropriate for the max aperture, widely spaced for f/2.8, closely spaced for f/11.  I wonder if they can also vary it based on the position, and have an even wider baseline for fast primes when the focus point is central in the frame?
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pwp

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Re: the future of 1.2 L lenses ?
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2013, 08:29:06 PM »
If new versions come out, they will carry a much stiffer price tag. That has been the case with all their predecessors. The 2nd hand market will drop slightly, but not much.
Sometimes the opposite can apply because the new lens is premium priced, and thus dragging the outgoing models price upward in its expensive slipstream. Case in point is the 24-70 f/2.8. When the new 24-70 MkII shipped at around $2300 the used price for the MkI 24-70 f/2.8 jumped by a few hundred dollars.

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Re: the future of 1.2 L lenses ?
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2013, 08:29:06 PM »

Chris Jankowski

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Re: the future of 1.2 L lenses ?
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2013, 08:32:35 PM »
I would predict that we may never see F1.2 updates to the current 50L and 85L.

Originally the main driver for the design of F1.2 lenses was low light photography in the film days.  Remember ISO 64 films?  F1.2 lenses gave you a fighting chance to take a photo in low light on film.

This need is gone. You can get now serviceable results at ISO 12,800, which means 250 times shorter exposure time at the same aperture opening.

Shallow DOF was just an optical side effect.  But who really needs 2 cm DOF that 85mm gives you at f1.2 with 1.5 meters distance.  It really gets in a way most of the time.

The disadvantages of F1.2 lenses are known - huge amount of glass translating into large mass, size, cost and slower AF.  You can't just plonk bigger motor in to improve AF speed, as there are available power restrictions.

So, if we see 50L and 85L redone in the future, they may be between F1.4 and F2.0, but sharp as a tack from corner to corner from full opening, weather sealed, smaller and with IS and fast AF.  They won't be cheaper though (:-)).

I believe that in this form they would be generally more useful for modern FF digital cameras then the current models.  I certainly would consider them then.

ajfotofilmagem

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Re: the future of 1.2 L lenses ?
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2013, 09:40:05 PM »
I would predict that we may never see F1.2 updates to the current 50L and 85L.

Originally the main driver for the design of F1.2 lenses was low light photography in the film days.  Remember ISO 64 films?  F1.2 lenses gave you a fighting chance to take a photo in low light on film.

This need is gone. You can get now serviceable results at ISO 12,800, which means 250 times shorter exposure time at the same aperture opening.

Shallow DOF was just an optical side effect.  But who really needs 2 cm DOF that 85mm gives you at f1.2 with 1.5 meters distance.  It really gets in a way most of the time.

The disadvantages of F1.2 lenses are known - huge amount of glass translating into large mass, size, cost and slower AF.  You can't just plonk bigger motor in to improve AF speed, as there are available power restrictions.

So, if we see 50L and 85L redone in the future, they may be between F1.4 and F2.0, but sharp as a tack from corner to corner from full opening, weather sealed, smaller and with IS and fast AF.  They won't be cheaper though (:-)).

I believe that in this form they would be generally more useful for modern FF digital cameras then the current models.  I certainly would consider them then.
No doubt, someday Canon 50mm L will be updated. However, in the face of modern cameras with ISO 6400 pretty good, people will buy F1.2 only by shallow DOF, and not by the lack of light. Canon should be afraid of a future 50mm F1.4 IS with better sharpness wide open, will cannibalize sales of 50L, but if Canon do not, Sigma will do. I think Canon 85L would have a replacement even better, making a Canon 85mm F1.4 IS, which would be lighter and could have autofocus much faster. Again, Canon will be required to do if Sigma do one with great quality.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 09:45:13 PM by ajfotofilmagem »

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Re: the future of 1.2 L lenses ?
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2013, 01:05:46 AM »
Yes, I loved getting the ear or nose in focus when using the 5D II's outer points with fast glass when aimed at the eye, or relying on spray and pray for a still object.

The 5D III gives you more freedom in composing the image because the camera still autofocuses accurately using outer points.  And AI servo is useable with the outer points as well which makes it much easier photographying young kids whose "sitting still" is not still.

The 6D's AF is quite a bit better than the 5D2's, like it or not.  The 6D has no problem with focus accuracy with the outer points.  It's just that they can have more trouble locking focus in a short amount of time, due to them not being cross type.  To each their own. 

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Re: the future of 1.2 L lenses ?
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2013, 01:13:49 AM »

I don't consider a misfocused shot to have better image quality than a properly focused shot.  There's more to capturing an image than the sensor (and the difference between the image sensors is less than the difference between the AF sensors).

Neither do I.  But the 6D is more than a sensor, and its AF is superior to the 5D2's, which sold for a $1k higher price than the 6D has sold for during most of its initial year on the market.  Therefore the 6D is a fantastic camera for the price, period.

The price of the 5D3 is mostly the difference between the AF sensors, and a good bit of faster/more processing...and a whopping 1.5 frames per second of extra multi-shooting.  But like it or not, in most situations you simply have to try to upset the 6D's AF sensor to make it misbehave...which is something you might take pleasure in...in order to goad 6D users...but owners of this camera are happy to work around its shortcomings...and we get fantastic images doing so...most of which are in focus.  Sorry to burst your bubble, but it can only grow so big before it pops.

I have to ask though, do you own a 5D3?  If you like it so much, you really should buy one, and sell that crappy 7D of yours.  It's not like the cost is going to set you back that much.  You already own the 1DX, so I have to wonder why you are so in favor of the 5D3, when you didn't even feel the need to buy one for yourself?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 01:18:18 AM by CarlTN »

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Re: the future of 1.2 L lenses ?
« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2013, 10:26:23 AM »
I don't consider a misfocused shot to have better image quality than a properly focused shot.  There's more to capturing an image than the sensor (and the difference between the image sensors is less than the difference between the AF sensors).
Neither do I.  But the 6D is more than a sensor, and its AF is superior to the 5D2's, which sold for a $1k higher price than the 6D has sold for during most of its initial year on the market.  Therefore the 6D is a fantastic camera for the price, period.

I was comparing two contemporary cameras, the 5DIII and 6D, not a 5-year old camera that has been replaced.  But yes, the 6D is a fantastic camera, for it's price.  My Subaru is a fantastic car for its price, as well. It can go through over a foot of snow on the driveway, with drifts as high as the hood of the car, if I need to get out before the plow service comes. It even has heated seats to keep my butt warm.  But a well-equipped Volvo (5DIII) would be better, and a well equipped Mercedes (1D X) would be better still.  The point is, while the Subaru meets my needs as a car, the 6D does not meet my needs as a camera.

The price of the 5D3 is mostly the difference between the AF sensors, and a good bit of faster/more processing...and a whopping 1.5 frames per second of extra multi-shooting.  But like it or not, in most situations you simply have to try to upset the 6D's AF sensor to make it misbehave...which is something you might take pleasure in...in order to goad 6D users...but owners of this camera are happy to work around its shortcomings...and we get fantastic images doing so...most of which are in focus.  Sorry to burst your bubble, but it can only grow so big before it pops.

A 33% increase in frame rate (plus a more durable shutter) and a much better AF sensor are significant improvements.  "Try to upset the 6D's AF sensor to make it misbehave?" Yes, how dare I try to take images of running children and expect good tracking?  My 5DII couldn't do it very well, and despite it's 'AF superior to the 5D2', the 6D isn't really any better at it.  I don't think that upsets the 6D's AF nearly as much as complaints about the 6D upset you.

I have to ask though, do you own a 5D3?  If you like it so much, you really should buy one, and sell that crappy 7D of yours.  It's not like the cost is going to set you back that much.  You already own the 1DX, so I have to wonder why you are so in favor of the 5D3, when you didn't even feel the need to buy one for yourself?

No, I don't own a 5DIII, although I've used one.  Since we're talking about AF, the 5DIII is very relevant, since it has the same AF sensor as the 1D X, and it's more affordable which as you know is an important consideration for many people.  I sold my 7D quite some time ago, it doesn't offer any advantages over the 1D X, for me.  But it was a very good camera.  A year ago, calling the 7D 'crappy' on this forum was sure to draw out a response from the staunch defenders of 7D awesomeness.  Those folks are quiet these days, but their spirit lives on in the staunch defender (or defenders, if there's more than one) of the 6D.

I see no need to buy a 5DIII, as I have no plans to carry two cameras around routinely, and the EOS M is more convenient as an emergency backup.  Since I prefer a gripped body, and the gripped 5DIII is larger, heavier, and less comfortable to hold than the 1D X, if I absolutely needed a second body, I'd get a second 1D X.  But the 5DIII is an excellent camera, great IQ and great AF performance. 
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Re: the future of 1.2 L lenses ?
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2013, 12:48:49 PM »
Amen  :)
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Re: the future of 1.2 L lenses ?
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2013, 12:48:49 PM »

Eldar

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Re: the future of 1.2 L lenses ?
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2013, 01:18:02 PM »
Just for the records, I have both the 5DIII and 1DX and I am very happy with both. The 1DX is clearly a better camera though.
I also bought a 6D/24-105 kit for my sister, which I played with for 2 weeks before she got it. It produces stunning pictures and is clearly a lot of camera for the money. But, when using the very fast primes, you need very accurate focusing and the AF system of the 6D cannot compete with the 5DIII/1DX.

Prior to my current bodies, I had the 1DsIII and 5DII. I was extremely happy with both at the time I got them. But objectively, the 6D would compare very favorably to those two and probably beat them in most areas. In a couple of years we will get the 5DIV and 1DXI and then we will (probably) discuss how much better they are than the current generation.
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Re: the future of 1.2 L lenses ?
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2013, 02:52:03 PM »
Just for the records, I have both the 5DIII and 1DX and I am very happy with both. The 1DX is clearly a better camera though.
I also bought a 6D/24-105 kit for my sister, which I played with for 2 weeks before she got it. It produces stunning pictures and is clearly a lot of camera for the money. But, when using the very fast primes, you need very accurate focusing and the AF system of the 6D cannot compete with the 5DIII/1DX.

Prior to my current bodies, I had the 1DsIII and 5DII. I was extremely happy with both at the time I got them. But objectively, the 6D would compare very favorably to those two and probably beat them in most areas. In a couple of years we will get the 5DIV and 1DXI and then we will (probably) discuss how much better they are than the current generation.

Agreed, we certainly will.

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Re: the future of 1.2 L lenses ?
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2013, 02:52:03 PM »