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Author Topic: 5d3/6d silent shutter: faster, slower or equal wear?  (Read 3714 times)

Marsu42

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5d3/6d silent shutter: faster, slower or equal wear?
« on: September 25, 2013, 04:07:45 PM »
If shutter lag time isn't an issue: Does shooting in silent shutter mode protect the camera since it's moving the mirror slower(?), i.e. putting less physical stress on the components? Or is the max. shutter rating due to the curtains failing, meaning silent or normal shutter doesn't matter? Thanks!

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5d3/6d silent shutter: faster, slower or equal wear?
« on: September 25, 2013, 04:07:45 PM »

J.R.

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Re: 5d3/6d silent shutter: faster, slower or equal wear?
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2013, 04:45:18 PM »
I've given this aspect some thought too.

The silent shutter mode only slows down the mirror return and the re-cocking of the shutter mechanism. The actual impact taken by the shutter while taking the picture would remain the same regardless of what shooting mode is employed.

The shutter re-cocking mechanism might be relieved of the stress, but the shutter curtains are definitely moving at the same speed and taking the same amount of impact. So your shutter could still die even though the re-cocking mechanism is slightly relieved of the impact.

Maybe someone who knows the mechanical workings of the insides of a shutter will throw some light on this ...
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ajfotofilmagem

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Re: 5d3/6d silent shutter: faster, slower or equal wear?
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2013, 05:24:25 PM »
I've given this aspect some thought too.

The silent shutter mode only slows down the mirror return and the re-cocking of the shutter mechanism. The actual impact taken by the shutter while taking the picture would remain the same regardless of what shooting mode is employed.

The shutter re-cocking mechanism might be relieved of the stress, but the shutter curtains are definitely moving at the same speed and taking the same amount of impact. So your shutter could still die even though the re-cocking mechanism is slightly relieved of the impact.

Maybe someone who knows the mechanical workings of the insides of a shutter will throw some light on this ...
I agree. The shutter curtain should have the same wear and tear that would be in normal mode. However, resetting the shutter and mirror mechanism should suffer less wear when using the silent mode.

distant.star

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Re: 5d3/6d silent shutter: faster, slower or equal wear?
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2013, 05:50:36 PM »
.
No matter to me. I'd keep using silent even if I knew it cut shutter life by half.

It's the classiest shutter sound I know -- reminds me of a Rolls Royce gliding by.
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Re: 5d3/6d silent shutter: faster, slower or equal wear?
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2013, 12:24:17 PM »
.
No matter to me. I'd keep using silent even if I knew it cut shutter life by half.

It's the classiest shutter sound I know -- reminds me of a Rolls Royce gliding by.
+1 - I love it, too!
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Re: 5d3/6d silent shutter: faster, slower or equal wear?
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2013, 01:38:13 PM »
Shutter can fail for many reasons, certainly speed is a big factor.  Using one at 1/8000 sec all the time will cause it to fail sooner with all other things being equal.
 
However, those other things can loom big as well.  One of the big failure reasons is storage at high temperatures or use at very low temperatures.  These also shorten the life.  Storing a camera in a automobile in hot weather can shorten the life.  Its not going to fail tomorrow, its stastical.  Instead of failing at 1 million cycles, it might fail at 80,000. No two cameras are exactly alike, and most see different environmental situations, so there is only generalization, nothing specific.

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Re: 5d3/6d silent shutter: faster, slower or equal wear?
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2013, 02:26:13 PM »
Shutter can fail for many reasons, certainly speed is a big factor.  Using one at 1/8000 sec all the time will cause it to fail sooner with all other things being equal.
 
However, those other things can loom big as well.  One of the big failure reasons is storage at high temperatures or use at very low temperatures.  These also shorten the life.  Storing a camera in a automobile in hot weather can shorten the life.  Its not going to fail tomorrow, its stastical.  Instead of failing at 1 million cycles, it might fail at 80,000. No two cameras are exactly alike, and most see different environmental situations, so there is only generalization, nothing specific.

Yup, any of those MTBF ratings are just statistical. In general, under "normal" use conditions, it'll last X. The shutter you got? Great question, you'll find out when it fails ;)
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Re: 5d3/6d silent shutter: faster, slower or equal wear?
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2013, 02:26:13 PM »

Marsu42

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Re: 5d3/6d silent shutter: faster, slower or equal wear?
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2013, 02:57:56 PM »
Shutter can fail for many reasons, certainly speed is a big factor.  Using one at 1/8000 sec all the time will cause it to fail sooner with all other things being equal.

Then lucky me Canon has disabled 1/8000 on the 6D (though you can set it with ml)... maybe they figured with the shutter quality they put into the 6D, using a speed that fast would let them drown in warranty cases?

I really hope the shutter in the 6D is as sturdy as in my 60D which now has 150k cycles... but I doubt so since the ff design causes more component stress :-\

hgraf

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Re: 5d3/6d silent shutter: faster, slower or equal wear?
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2013, 03:17:09 PM »
Shutter can fail for many reasons, certainly speed is a big factor.  Using one at 1/8000 sec all the time will cause it to fail sooner with all other things being equal.

Just curious: why? Is there something special about 1/8000?

From all the "slow mo" videos I've seen of shutters, the speed of the curtains down the plane is the same, the only difference between shutter speeds is the amount of time delay between the 1st curtain being activated and the 2nd.

Does the camera drive the curtains harder for 1/8000s?

Thanks, TTYL

Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: 5d3/6d silent shutter: faster, slower or equal wear?
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2013, 03:39:16 PM »
Shutter can fail for many reasons, certainly speed is a big factor.  Using one at 1/8000 sec all the time will cause it to fail sooner with all other things being equal.

Then lucky me Canon has disabled 1/8000 on the 6D (though you can set it with ml)... maybe they figured with the shutter quality they put into the 6D, using a speed that fast would let them drown in warranty cases?

I really hope the shutter in the 6D is as sturdy as in my 60D which now has 150k cycles... but I doubt so since the ff design causes more component stress :-\

Its hard to tell if the 6D shutter speed is a feature being limited for product differentiation, or because its not a robust design.  In either event, unless a shutter is fired at max speed all the time, its going to last a long time on the average for a normal user.  The only shutter that has failed for me had a thumb put thru it on purpose.  I was using it for the Canon CLP and I wanted to see what it took to damage a shutter on one of the old 35mm film bodies.  (It was a T50 as I recall), and already had a malfunction.  The shutter was actually pretty strong, but once damaged, it could not be fixed, it had vertical metal blinds that bent and could not be flattened out again.
 
Its statistical, one 60D might last for a million actuations, another might fail at 100.  Unless you test 1000 cameras for 1 million actuations, you won't really know how good the design is.  Most life tests elevate the temperature and then extrapolate the life based on how many actuations it takes to fail at a very high temperature, probably at least 100C.  The test temperature depends on what materials were used, you can't use a temperature that causes material failure before mechanical failure.  That means its just a prediction based on theory.  Changing assumptions a little can let you predict most any life you want, so the result has to be compared with real life to validate it.  A formula that correctly predicted shutter life for a old model is used as the basis for a new one.
 
Many insulation materials and lubricants can handle 125-150C with no problem, same for IC's and other electronic components.  At very low temperatures, stiff lubricants, and contraction of the parts means very tight joints and high friction that puts extreme stresses on all the mechanical parts.
 
Virtually every failure is mechanical in nature.  There are a few where there is some type of voltage breakdown in a semi-conductor, but mechanical breakage is much more common.  In IC's, for example, its often a internal lead or contaminant that causes the breakdown, these are mechanical in nature as opposed to the semi-conductor failing. 

ajfotofilmagem

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Re: 5d3/6d silent shutter: faster, slower or equal wear?
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2013, 04:13:44 PM »
Shutter can fail for many reasons, certainly speed is a big factor.  Using one at 1/8000 sec all the time will cause it to fail sooner with all other things being equal.

Just curious: why? Is there something special about 1/8000?

From all the "slow mo" videos I've seen of shutters, the speed of the curtains down the plane is the same, the only difference between shutter speeds is the amount of time delay between the 1st curtain being activated and the 2nd.

Does the camera drive the curtains harder for 1/8000s?

Thanks, TTYL
A speed fast as 1/8000 becomes problematic because of inertia. When a mechanical piece stops its motion tends to continue the movement. If it is stopped abruptly, and moves in the opposite direction, inertia will cause greater mechanical stress. This should be a bigger problem with heavier pieces. Therefore the mechanism of mirror full frame cameras need to use more resistant materials and (where possible) lighter than APS-C cameras. The smaller mirror size explains why 7D is capable of much faster speeds, without this causing a significant increase in manufacturing cost compared to 6D.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 04:16:09 PM by ajfotofilmagem »

Drizzt321

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Re: 5d3/6d silent shutter: faster, slower or equal wear?
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2013, 06:03:39 PM »
Shutter can fail for many reasons, certainly speed is a big factor.  Using one at 1/8000 sec all the time will cause it to fail sooner with all other things being equal.

Just curious: why? Is there something special about 1/8000?

From all the "slow mo" videos I've seen of shutters, the speed of the curtains down the plane is the same, the only difference between shutter speeds is the amount of time delay between the 1st curtain being activated and the 2nd.

Does the camera drive the curtains harder for 1/8000s?

Thanks, TTYL
A speed fast as 1/8000 becomes problematic because of inertia. When a mechanical piece stops its motion tends to continue the movement. If it is stopped abruptly, and moves in the opposite direction, inertia will cause greater mechanical stress. This should be a bigger problem with heavier pieces. Therefore the mechanism of mirror full frame cameras need to use more resistant materials and (where possible) lighter than APS-C cameras. The smaller mirror size explains why 7D is capable of much faster speeds, without this causing a significant increase in manufacturing cost compared to 6D.

Also usually whenever you have mechanical parts moving at their max rated speed/acceleration/force/etc it puts a lot more stress than, say, operating at 80% of their rated value.
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Re: 5d3/6d silent shutter: faster, slower or equal wear?
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2013, 06:44:25 PM »
Shutter can fail for many reasons, certainly speed is a big factor.  Using one at 1/8000 sec all the time will cause it to fail sooner with all other things being equal.

Just curious: why? Is there something special about 1/8000?

From all the "slow mo" videos I've seen of shutters, the speed of the curtains down the plane is the same, the only difference between shutter speeds is the amount of time delay between the 1st curtain being activated and the 2nd.

Does the camera drive the curtains harder for 1/8000s?

Thanks, TTYL
A speed fast as 1/8000 becomes problematic because of inertia. When a mechanical piece stops its motion tends to continue the movement. If it is stopped abruptly, and moves in the opposite direction, inertia will cause greater mechanical stress. This should be a bigger problem with heavier pieces. Therefore the mechanism of mirror full frame cameras need to use more resistant materials and (where possible) lighter than APS-C cameras. The smaller mirror size explains why 7D is capable of much faster speeds, without this causing a significant increase in manufacturing cost compared to 6D.

Also usually whenever you have mechanical parts moving at their max rated speed/acceleration/force/etc it puts a lot more stress than, say, operating at 80% of their rated value.
Why would shutter curtains need to move at 1/8000 faster than at flash sync speed?

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Re: 5d3/6d silent shutter: faster, slower or equal wear?
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2013, 06:44:25 PM »

ajfotofilmagem

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Re: 5d3/6d silent shutter: faster, slower or equal wear?
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2013, 06:58:00 PM »
Shutter can fail for many reasons, certainly speed is a big factor.  Using one at 1/8000 sec all the time will cause it to fail sooner with all other things being equal.

Just curious: why? Is there something special about 1/8000?

From all the "slow mo" videos I've seen of shutters, the speed of the curtains down the plane is the same, the only difference between shutter speeds is the amount of time delay between the 1st curtain being activated and the 2nd.

Does the camera drive the curtains harder for 1/8000s?

Thanks, TTYL
A speed fast as 1/8000 becomes problematic because of inertia. When a mechanical piece stops its motion tends to continue the movement. If it is stopped abruptly, and moves in the opposite direction, inertia will cause greater mechanical stress. This should be a bigger problem with heavier pieces. Therefore the mechanism of mirror full frame cameras need to use more resistant materials and (where possible) lighter than APS-C cameras. The smaller mirror size explains why 7D is capable of much faster speeds, without this causing a significant increase in manufacturing cost compared to 6D.

Also usually whenever you have mechanical parts moving at their max rated speed/acceleration/force/etc it puts a lot more stress than, say, operating at 80% of their rated value.
Why would shutter curtains need to move at 1/8000 faster than at flash sync speed?
For the same reason that a car can run up to 300 km / h but roads allow a maximum 120 km / h. There is no a "normal" use but is nice to have this capability for use in non-normal situations.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 06:59:59 PM by ajfotofilmagem »

Valvebounce

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Re: 5d3/6d silent shutter: faster, slower or equal wear?
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2013, 07:17:45 PM »
Hi.
My understanding of the shutter speeds is that the curtains travel at a fixed speed. The first curtain departs at x metres per second, then 1/250 or 1/8000 of a second the second shutter departs also at x m/s. At 1/250 being max flash sync on most of our bodies (if my memory serves me well) this is the highest shutter speed where the first curtain arrives before or as the second curtain departs. I.e. the whole sensor is uncovered. All speeds over this the second shutter departs before the first arrives at the far side. The shutters do not travel faster, just the slit that crosses the sensor "exposing" it is narrower. At 1/8000 of a second it is very narrow!

My understanding is that it is also the slit with fixed speed curtains that determine flash sync as above that speed only a small portion of the sensor would recieve the light from the flash, this is without a flash capable of high speed sync which is a burst of less powerful flashes not one strong flash.

I do not know from this whether continued use of a 1/8000 shutter speed would cause any more wear than a 1 second exposure, I would doubt it from basic inertia principles though there may be other factors to take in to account.

Hope this helps.

Cheers Graham.

Shutter can fail for many reasons, certainly speed is a big factor.  Using one at 1/8000 sec all the time will cause it to fail sooner with all other things being equal.

Just curious: why? Is there something special about 1/8000?

From all the "slow mo" videos I've seen of shutters, the speed of the curtains down the plane is the same, the only difference between shutter speeds is the amount of time delay between the 1st curtain being activated and the 2nd.

Does the camera drive the curtains harder for 1/8000s?

Thanks, TTYL
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Re: 5d3/6d silent shutter: faster, slower or equal wear?
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2013, 07:17:45 PM »