December 18, 2014, 05:48:32 PM

Author Topic: I don't understand  (Read 9934 times)

RustyTheGeek

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Re: I don't understand
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2013, 01:36:55 PM »
Yes, I also fail to understand... why we need 40+ MP cameras.  Sigh...

Can someone please enlighten me?  All I see is a future with a 40+ MP camera where I can only fit a small number of large megabyte RAW image files on an expensive CF card that takes longer to write.  Then I have to deal with my expensive lenses not resolving as well on the higher res sensor.  I also have to worry that the sensor itself will or will not render a high quality image with such a high pixel density.  There are other issues but in general, unless I am printing a billboard, I fail to see what super high megapixels really gains me.

FWIW, I was ecstatic when I learned that the 5D3 was NOT going to have a high megapixel sensor.

What I care about is greater exposure abilities and IQ from a sensor, not higher megapixels.  Better low light, dynamic range, etc.  Greater MP seems to always make obtaining better quality that much harder.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 01:38:55 PM by RustyTheGeek »
Yes, but what would  surapon  say ??  :D

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Re: I don't understand
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2013, 01:36:55 PM »

takesome1

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Re: I don't understand
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2013, 01:44:04 PM »
Yes, I also fail to understand... why we need 40+ MP cameras.  Sigh...


40 megapixels sounds way better than .04 gigapixels.
 
The larger numbers make us feel better and helps compensate for other things.
Also true when comparing 24 mp to 40 mp.
Of course it would also give the addicted pixel peepers of the world the drug they need.

RustyTheGeek

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Re: I don't understand
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2013, 01:48:27 PM »
Yeah, things like better low light or action AF is secondary to the benefits of Sky High MP I guess. 
Yes, but what would  surapon  say ??  :D

takesome1

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Re: I don't understand
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2013, 02:04:55 PM »
Yeah, things like better low light or action AF is secondary to the benefits of Sky High MP I guess.

Sounds like a DR discussion, I thought this thread was to simple to head that direction.

GmwDarkroom

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Re: I don't understand
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2013, 02:08:03 PM »
Fighting simplistic statements with simplistic statements is a good way to dumb down a discussion and make this forum much less interesting.
The statement was not to "fight" the OP, but to draw equivalence between the OP and Neuro's point.

I should have made it sharper for you.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 02:12:33 PM by GmwDarkroom »

Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: I don't understand
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2013, 02:16:45 PM »
I guess I don't understand.
Are we only supposed to speculate and talk about Canon Rumors, and only talk about Nikon and Sony products released on the market.
Or is it that it is a waste of time complaining that Canon's Rumors about a FF mirrorless are behind Sony and Nikons rumors.

I am confused now about which rumors we can spread and which we can't.

Its perfectly acceptable to post rumors of other brands, there is a section called third party manufacturers under rumors to do it in.
 
If its posted as a Canon Rumor, then its is either trying to stir up people, or someone can't read.

takesome1

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Re: I don't understand
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2013, 02:24:10 PM »
I guess I don't understand.
Are we only supposed to speculate and talk about Canon Rumors, and only talk about Nikon and Sony products released on the market.
Or is it that it is a waste of time complaining that Canon's Rumors about a FF mirrorless are behind Sony and Nikons rumors.

I am confused now about which rumors we can spread and which we can't.


 
Its perfectly acceptable to post rumors of other brands, there is a section called third party manufacturers under rumors to do it in.
 
If its posted as a Canon Rumor, then its is either trying to stir up people, or someone can't read.

I seldom look at sections and just watch the new posts. Did this thread start out in Canon Rumors and then was moved?

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Re: I don't understand
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2013, 02:24:10 PM »

Sporgon

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Re: I don't understand
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2013, 02:32:52 PM »
Sony and anyone else are welcome to their 36mp sensor. Canon will continue to do that they are good at: producing cameras for photographers. Any more than  24 mp on a FF sensor and I would want a larger format to go with it.

Just out of interest, is there anything in the Sony sensor fabrication that makes it more feasible to have and use 36 mp on a FF sensor size compared with the Canon process ?

Halfrack

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Re: I don't understand
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2013, 03:27:16 PM »
Yes, I also fail to understand... why we need 40+ MP cameras.  Sigh...

You don't need it, but it sure is nice when you have it.  The only way to get it right now is MF.  There are trade offs for MF - and they are huge:

Lens options - let's be honest, there are 10x more in the 35mm world than in the medium format world
Lens length - 200-400mm zoom, 800mm lenses - 35mm has this covered, 645 shooters just got a 2x extender
Shots per second - up to 14fps - need I say more?  Phase does a dark frame equal to your exposure, and Hasselblad does 1fps
Speedlites - TTL is your friend, and doesn't exist in in the MF world, so your wireless remotes are just 'pop'

So, for people who want these high MP images in the 35mm format, the ability to use these advantages is huge.

But, 40/50/60/80mp images are AMAZING to work with, and when printed are a whole different ball of wax.  There is a market for it, but there is an associated cost to it.  I can do a 24x36 print, and my resolution is 300 pixels per inch - off of a native file.  Yes, you can interpolate up to this, and even higher, but side by side, a MF image at size will look better.
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RustyTheGeek

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Re: I don't understand
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2013, 06:24:37 PM »
Yes, I also fail to understand... why we need 40+ MP cameras.  Sigh...

You don't need it, but it sure is nice when you have it.  The only way to get it right now is MF.  There are trade offs for MF - and they are huge:

Lens options - let's be honest, there are 10x more in the 35mm world than in the medium format world
Lens length - 200-400mm zoom, 800mm lenses - 35mm has this covered, 645 shooters just got a 2x extender
Shots per second - up to 14fps - need I say more?  Phase does a dark frame equal to your exposure, and Hasselblad does 1fps
Speedlites - TTL is your friend, and doesn't exist in in the MF world, so your wireless remotes are just 'pop'

So, for people who want these high MP images in the 35mm format, the ability to use these advantages is huge.

But, 40/50/60/80mp images are AMAZING to work with, and when printed are a whole different ball of wax.  There is a market for it, but there is an associated cost to it.  I can do a 24x36 print, and my resolution is 300 pixels per inch - off of a native file.  Yes, you can interpolate up to this, and even higher, but side by side, a MF image at size will look better.

Halfrack - Thank you so much for such an insightful and enlightening explanation why I would want high MP technology in a 35mm FF camera.  No sarcasm or insults, just a good set of reasons from someone who sounds like they have real experience with something that is indeed rare and out of the norm.  I thought I knew why high MP could be important but even though I understand the theory behind what benefit high MP offers, you presented a well supported answer to my basic question.  You sold and explained it in a way that makes me respect high MP more and not see it as a mere marketing ploy to take my money.

If I understand your explanation and read it correctly, you are saying that a high MP FF 35mm format sensor (done well) would offer/allow someone the ability to crop in and get a medium format ratio while using the wealth of technology and lens choices that only the 35mm cameras currently offer.  Even though medium format cameras currently have good sensors, the current state of MF camera technology and lens choices is frustrating to work with.  I was not aware of this because digital medium format is so far out of reach for just about everyone, esp amateurs.  The ability to crop from a high MP 35mm sensor would allow you to "cheat" with good results, use better technology and possibly save money at the same time?

Am I right?  Did I correctly understand your explanation?

Thanks again for bringing light to an otherwise lost thread.
Yes, but what would  surapon  say ??  :D

Drizzt321

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Re: I don't understand
« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2013, 06:40:19 PM »
Yes, I also fail to understand... why we need 40+ MP cameras.  Sigh...

You don't need it, but it sure is nice when you have it.  The only way to get it right now is MF.  There are trade offs for MF - and they are huge:

Lens options - let's be honest, there are 10x more in the 35mm world than in the medium format world
Lens length - 200-400mm zoom, 800mm lenses - 35mm has this covered, 645 shooters just got a 2x extender
Shots per second - up to 14fps - need I say more?  Phase does a dark frame equal to your exposure, and Hasselblad does 1fps
Speedlites - TTL is your friend, and doesn't exist in in the MF world, so your wireless remotes are just 'pop'

So, for people who want these high MP images in the 35mm format, the ability to use these advantages is huge.

But, 40/50/60/80mp images are AMAZING to work with, and when printed are a whole different ball of wax.  There is a market for it, but there is an associated cost to it.  I can do a 24x36 print, and my resolution is 300 pixels per inch - off of a native file.  Yes, you can interpolate up to this, and even higher, but side by side, a MF image at size will look better.

Halfrack - Thank you so much for such an insightful and enlightening explanation why I would want high MP technology in a 35mm FF camera.  No sarcasm or insults, just a good set of reasons from someone who sounds like they have real experience with something that is indeed rare and out of the norm.  I thought I knew why high MP could be important but even though I understand the theory behind what benefit high MP offers, you presented a well supported answer to my basic question.  You sold and explained it in a way that makes me respect high MP more and not see it as a mere marketing ploy to take my money.

If I understand your explanation and read it correctly, you are saying that a high MP FF 35mm format sensor (done well) would offer/allow someone the ability to crop in and get a medium format ratio while using the wealth of technology and lens choices that only the 35mm cameras currently offer.  Even though medium format cameras currently have good sensors, the current state of MF camera technology and lens choices is frustrating to work with.  I was not aware of this because digital medium format is so far out of reach for just about everyone, esp amateurs.  The ability to crop from a high MP 35mm sensor would allow you to "cheat" with good results, use better technology and possibly save money at the same time?

Am I right?  Did I correctly understand your explanation?

Thanks again for bringing light to an otherwise lost thread.

My reading from his (pretty good) post was that the lens choices & accessories are much more varied, and often more advanced than in the MF world. True enough.

But with a high MP FF 35mm format you can either blow it up a lot bigger and avoid interpolation (which will result it better viewing close up) while retaining a fairly small physical size and wide lens & accessories that are available. Or, you can crop in as much or more which gives you a narrower effective Field of View and 'zoom' in digitally while letting you still print at acceptable sizes without interpolation.

However, the one thing that 35mm can never do is simulate the look of MF based on sensor size. Just a fact of physics, the physical sensor size can't give quite the same look that MF can give. I haven't ever used MF digital, but over the past year I've gotten heavily into MF film (6x7 & 6x6). While it's film and then needing to scan it does result in a different look, at lot of it is also the perspective difference that using such a relatively large physical size results in.

Now, in theory, you could have a format that is between 35mm & 6x4.5. Sorta like APS-H was in between APS-C & FF. However you then lose compatibility between all those 35mm accessories, which makes it unlikely Canon would do that. They'd either just go right up to 6x4.5 or 6x6, or go 40+MP on 35mm FF. However, there will still be plenty of people that want 18MP 1DX type body. File sizes, processing time, number of images per card, and especially max frame rate are all important to many different photographers. However there definitely is a place for a high MP FF body, either 5D or 1D style body, but definitely with 1D build quality & functionality.
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Don Haines

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Re: I don't understand
« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2013, 07:30:14 PM »
Rumours from other companies are fine. Canon does not exist in a vacuum, they compete in a global market. What other companies are doing and planning provide clues as to where the industry is heading and that gives us clues as to where Canon might go.

As to "high megapixel" cameras.... remember when 18 Megapixels was a high number? Remember when 10 was big? Remember when 4 was big?

My first digital camera was 320x200 pixels.... I now have a 16Megapixel p/s and an outdated 18 megapixel DSLR (and a 10Mpixel DSLR..... and an 8....) The number of pixels has been steadily growing over the years... the curve seems to be slowing down, but you can be sure that in a few years everyone will have a model over 30 megapixels... right now 20 or 21 is nothing special.

Numbers sell, if it has more then it must be better :)  , particularly with the introductory cameras. Would an introductory Canon camera with 30Mpixels outsell an introductory Nikon with 24Mpixels? Probably... it has more so it must be better. Remember that most users do not understand what makes a good camera.... they buy an introductory camera with a kit lens and they are happy.... and this is the bulk of the market, the people who keep the manufacturers in business.

High end cameras are about quality. Low end cameras are about numbers. If I compare my p/s to a 1DX it looks pretty good.. The 1DX is weathersealed, my p/s works underwater... the 1DX has 18Mpixels, my p/s has 16.... the 1DX has a burst rate of 10 or 12, my p/s has a burst rate from 20 to 60 (depending on image size), my p/s shoots 240hz video.... and my p/s even has a dedicated program mode for taking cat pictures, a necessary feature for facebook :)
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 07:32:16 PM by Don Haines »
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brett b

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Re: I don't understand
« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2013, 07:41:08 PM »
I'm waiting for the 75mp camera from Canon, everything else is just for amateurs. Once I get that, I can FINALLY take the special shots that are locked away in my mind that none of my current sad gear can achieve. Oh I can't wait for that day.

Not me! I'll wait for the 2nd gen version of the body you are waiting for.
By then they'll have the bugs worked out!
Really looking forward to the day I can finally take those good pictures!!

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Re: I don't understand
« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2013, 07:41:08 PM »

Ewinter

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Re: I don't understand
« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2013, 07:46:01 PM »
I'd like a high MPix 1 series body for landscape and portrait but you can prise my 1DX from my cold dead hands for what I use it for, 18 MPix is enough, and I don't want to deal with anything over 20 megapixels when I'm shooting over 1000 images a night and have to pp them next day.

ajfotofilmagem

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Re: I don't understand
« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2013, 08:32:33 PM »
I'd like a high MPix 1 series body for landscape and portrait but you can prise my 1DX from my cold dead hands for what I use it for, 18 MPix is enough, and I don't want to deal with anything over 20 megapixels when I'm shooting over 1000 images a night and have to pp them next day.
I agree with you. I desire nothing more than 18 megapixel on a camera for my use. However, I understand that Canon should offer different options to meet the needs of various types of photographers. Surely there will be a Canon over 36 megapixel, which will be helpful for some people. If I was a Nikon user, I would be pissed about having no camera option now under 24 megapixel. >:( Thank you Canon for offering cameras and lenses more flexible. ;)

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Re: I don't understand
« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2013, 08:32:33 PM »