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Author Topic: Need help, Please " Sunny 16 Rules"  (Read 3628 times)

surapon

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Need help, Please " Sunny 16 Rules"
« on: October 07, 2013, 01:44:05 PM »
Dear Teachers and Friends.
Yes, Past 5 years, I went back to  learn the " Photography" courses in the local Technical College . And one mention of " Sunny 16 rules" that talk about Old Films system.  Yes, I use to use this rule f= 16 when bright sun shine, That 40 years ago, My Canon FT-QL just have the Small Light meter ---Almost useless any way.
NOW, SIR ----The question are :
1) Can we use in the Present Digital age = DSLR. in Manual mode ?    F= 16.0  ?
2) just forget the " Sunny 16 Rules" and shoot  the DSLR as we do in every days. ( ??).
3) In your Idea ----This Rule still usefull in the modern time ???
Thanks.
Surapon

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Need help, Please " Sunny 16 Rules"
« on: October 07, 2013, 01:44:05 PM »

Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: Need help, Please " Sunny 16 Rules"
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2013, 05:58:59 PM »
The rule still works, but film had a wider tolerance for missing the ideal exposure.
 
Back in the days of the FTQL (My first Canon Camera), the exposure meter worked very well, and seeing the actual composition as compared to the parallax of a rangefinder was wonderful.
Of course, slide film was ASA 5, 10, and Kodachrome II was a amazing ASA25.
In practical terms with a 50mm lens handheld, that meant f/8 and 1/50 or 1/60 sec.  The typical exposures for different scenes were printed on a slip of paper in the film box.
 
The basic rule is:
"On a sunny day set aperture to f/16 and shutter speed to the [reciprocal of the] ASA (ISO) film speed for a subject in direct sunlight."
In the USA, film speeds were always given as ASA numbers, ISO came later.
It was complicated by the changes to the ASA standard in 1960 which basically doubled the speed of the film with no change to the film itself.
Thus, ASA 100 became ASA200.  Really Confusing, but the wide latitude allowed by film allowed this to happen without overexposing.  That's why absolute accuracy really wasn't a big deal.

surapon

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Re: Need help, Please " Sunny 16 Rules"
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2013, 08:26:02 PM »
The rule still works, but film had a wider tolerance for missing the ideal exposure.
 
Back in the days of the FTQL (My first Canon Camera), the exposure meter worked very well, and seeing the actual composition as compared to the parallax of a rangefinder was wonderful.
Of course, slide film was ASA 5, 10, and Kodachrome II was a amazing ASA25.
In practical terms with a 50mm lens handheld, that meant f/8 and 1/50 or 1/60 sec.  The typical exposures for different scenes were printed on a slip of paper in the film box.
 
The basic rule is:
"On a sunny day set aperture to f/16 and shutter speed to the [reciprocal of the] ASA (ISO) film speed for a subject in direct sunlight."
In the USA, film speeds were always given as ASA numbers, ISO came later.
It was complicated by the changes to the ASA standard in 1960 which basically doubled the speed of the film with no change to the film itself.
Thus, ASA 100 became ASA200.  Really Confusing, but the wide latitude allowed by film allowed this to happen without overexposing.  That's why absolute accuracy really wasn't a big deal.

Thank you, Sir, Dear Teacher, Mr.Mt Spokane .
Now, I Learn some great Knowledge from you again,  I never know this one before in my life " with no change to the film itself.Thus, ASA 100 became ASA200. " ---Wow, I miss understand that ASA 100 = ISO 100----Wow That Mean I still have KODAK PORTRA 800 professional( in my Refrigerator) = Now ISO 1600 = ??,  and Ilford HP5 , 400 = Now ISO=800 .
Thousand Thanks, Sir, Dear Teacher.
Have a great night.
Surapon

PS.  I will try this Sunny 16 rules, and report back to you very soon.

PS2= Sir, How about Lens Disfraction  of Small F. Stop such as 16.0 ?----May be long time ago the Canon FD  Lenses have no Lens Disfraction yet / for Film camera ???
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 09:20:21 PM by surapon »

Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: Need help, Please " Sunny 16 Rules"
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2013, 09:04:15 PM »
The rule still works, but film had a wider tolerance for missing the ideal exposure.
 
Back in the days of the FTQL (My first Canon Camera), the exposure meter worked very well, and seeing the actual composition as compared to the parallax of a rangefinder was wonderful.
Of course, slide film was ASA 5, 10, and Kodachrome II was a amazing ASA25.
In practical terms with a 50mm lens handheld, that meant f/8 and 1/50 or 1/60 sec.  The typical exposures for different scenes were printed on a slip of paper in the film box.
 
The basic rule is:
"On a sunny day set aperture to f/16 and shutter speed to the [reciprocal of the] ASA (ISO) film speed for a subject in direct sunlight."
In the USA, film speeds were always given as ASA numbers, ISO came later.
It was complicated by the changes to the ASA standard in 1960 which basically doubled the speed of the film with no change to the film itself.
Thus, ASA 100 became ASA200.  Really Confusing, but the wide latitude allowed by film allowed this to happen without overexposing.  That's why absolute accuracy really wasn't a big deal.

Than you, Sir, Dear Teacher, Mr.Mt Spokane .
Now, I Learn some great Knowledge from you again,  I never know this one before in my life " with no change to the film itself.Thus, ASA 100 became ASA200. " ---Wow, I miss understand that ASA 100 = ISO 100----Wow That Mean I still have KODAK PORTRA 800 professional( in my Refrigerator) = Now ISO 1600 = ??,  and Ilford HP5 , 400 = Now ISO=800 .
Thousand Thanks, Sir, Dear Teacher.
Have a great night.
Surapon

PS.  I will try this Sunny 16 rules, and report back to you very soon.

PS2= Sir, How about Lens Disfraction  of Small F. Stop such as 16.0 ?----May be long time ago the Canon FD  Lenses have no Lens Disfraction yet / for Film camera ???
The definition of ASA ratings changed in 1960, so film manufactured after then had the new ASA numbers.  Your Portra is not going to double unless it was made before 1960 under the old ASA system.
I just mentioned it, because it was sort of relevant to the rule of sunny 16.  Processors likely adjusted processing for the higher ASA, but the film itself was not overexposed or changed.
 
Wikipedia  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_speedASA[edit]Based on earlier research work by Loyd Ancile Jones (1884–1954) of Kodak and inspired by the systems of Weston film speed ratings[24] and General Electric film values,[26] the American Standards Association (now named ANSI) defined a new method to determine and specify film speeds of black-and-white negative films in 1943. ASA Z38.2.1-1943 was revised in 1946 and 1947 before the standard grew into ASA PH2.5-1954. Originally, ASA values were frequently referred to as American standard speed numbers or ASA exposure-index numbers. (See also: Exposure Index (EI).)
The ASA scale was arithmetic, that is, a film denoted as having a film speed of 200 ASA was twice as fast as a film with 100 ASA.
The ASA standard underwent a major revision in 1960 with ASA PH2.5-1960, when the method to determine film speed was refined and previously applied safety factors against under-exposure were abandoned, effectively doubling the nominal speed of many black-and-white negative films. For example, an Ilford HP3 that had been rated at 200 ASA before 1960 was labeled 400 ASA afterwards without any change to the emulsion. Similar changes were applied to the DIN system with DIN 4512:1961-10 and the BS system with BS 1380:1963 in the following years.
In addition to the established arithmetic speed scale, ASA PH2.5-1960 also introduced logarithmic ASA grades (100 ASA = 5° ASA), where a difference of 1° ASA represented a full exposure stop and therefore the doubling of a film speed. For some while, ASA grades were also printed on film boxes, and they saw life in the form of the APEX speed value Sv (without degree symbol) as well.
ASA PH2.5-1960 was revised as ANSI PH2.5-1979, without the logarithmic speeds, and later replaced by NAPM IT2.5-1986 of the National Association of Photographic Manufacturers, which represented the US adoption of the international standard ISO 6. The latest issue of ANSI/NAPM IT2.5 was published in 1993.
The standard for color negative film was introduced as ASA PH2.27-1965 and saw a string of revisions in 1971, 1976, 1979 and 1981, before it finally became ANSI IT2.27-1988 prior to its withdrawal.
Color reversal film speeds were defined in ANSI PH2.21-1983, which was revised in 1989 before it became ANSI/NAPM IT2.21 in 1994, the US adoption of the ISO 2240 standard.
On an international level, the ASA system was superseded by the ISO film speed system between 1982 and 1987, however, the arithmetic ASA speed scale continued to live on as the linear speed value of the ISO system.

surapon

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Re: Need help, Please " Sunny 16 Rules"
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2013, 09:21:18 PM »
Thank you, Sir, Dear Teacher, Mr.Mt Spokane .
Wow, Wow, Wow.
Surapon

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Re: Need help, Please " Sunny 16 Rules"
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2013, 09:58:42 PM »
Thank you, Sir, Dear Teacher, Mr.Mt Spokane .
Wow, Wow, Wow.
Surapon

I've learned a lot from your posts, and from some of the excellent replies to them, so we all win!

surapon

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Re: Need help, Please " Sunny 16 Rules"
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2013, 08:26:33 AM »
Thank you, Sir, Dear Teacher, Mr.Mt Spokane .
Wow, Wow, Wow.
Surapon

I've learned a lot from your posts, and from some of the excellent replies to them, so we all win!

 :)  :)  :)

Surapon

PS, After talk , and Learn from you, I  search the Internet and find out some great Infor., And will Test this Theory of SUNNY 16 , when the rain in my home town are gone, and sunny 16/ Bright sun shine come back.

"Sunny 16 rule
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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For the EP by Ben Folds, see Sunny 16 (EP).

In photography, the Sunny 16 rule (also known as the Sunny f/16 rule) is a method of estimating correct daylight exposures without a light meter. (For lunar photography there is a similar rule known as the Looney 11 rule.) Apart from the obvious advantage of independence from a light meter, the Sunny 16 rule can also aid in achieving correct exposure of difficult subjects. As the rule is based on incident light, rather than reflected light as with most camera light meters, very bright or very dark subjects are compensated for. The rule serves as a mnemonic for the camera settings obtained on a sunny day using the exposure value (EV) system.

The basic rule is, "On a sunny day set aperture to f/16 and shutter speed to the [reciprocal of the] ISO film speed [or ISO setting] for a subject in direct sunlight."[1] For example:

    On a sunny day and with ISO 100 film / setting in the camera, one sets the aperture to f/16 and the shutter speed to 1/100 or 1/125 second (on some cameras 1/125 second is the available setting nearest to 1/100 second).
    On a sunny day with ISO 200 film / setting and aperture at f/16, set shutter speed to 1/200 or 1/250.
    On a sunny day with ISO 400 film / setting and aperture at f/16, set shutter speed to 1/400 or 1/500.

As with other light readings, shutter speed can be changed as long as the f-number is altered to compensate, e.g. 1/250 second at f/11 gives equivalent exposure to 1/125 second at f/16. More in general, the adjustment is done such that for each step in aperture increase (i.e., decreasing the f-number), the exposure time has to be halved (or equivalently, the shutter speed doubled), and vice versa. This follows the more general rule derived from the mathematical relationship between aperture and exposure time — within reasonable ranges, exposure is proportional to the square of the aperture ratio and proportional to exposure time; thus, to maintain a constant level of exposure, a change in aperture by a factor c requires a change in exposure time by a factor 1/c² and vice-versa. Steps in the aperture always correspond to a factor close to the square root of 2, thus the above rule.

An elaborated form of the Sunny 16 rule is to set shutter speed nearest to the reciprocal of the ISO film speed / setting and f-number according to this table:[2][3]

        Aperture    Lighting Conditions    Shadow Detail
        f/22    Snow/Sand    Dark with sharp edges
        f/16    Sunny    Distinct
        f/11    Slight Overcast    Soft around edges
        f/8    Overcast    Barely visible
        f/5.6    Heavy Overcast    No shadows
        f/4    Open Shade/Sunset    No shadows
        Add One Stop    Backlighting    n/a":
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 09:21:51 AM by surapon »

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Re: Need help, Please " Sunny 16 Rules"
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2013, 08:26:33 AM »

surapon

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Re: Need help, Please " Sunny 16 Rules"
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2013, 02:42:44 PM »
Wow, Pass 7 Days after I post the Question of " Sunny 16",( And I have learn the New Knowledge from my dear Teacher, Mr. Mt Spokane ) The Sunny 16 = bright sun shine is coming back  to my home town to day. Iyes I just grab my dear Canon 5D MK II and Canon TS-E 24 mm. F/ 3.5 L MK II, and set up the camera = Manual mode, at F = 16.00, Yes, Set Shutter speed at  1/ X Sec, Which X =  The Value of ISO.
Yes,  All the Photos are great Exposure---May be Small Under exposure on my computer screen (  Yes, I will try to print and see).
All the photos below are original photos, Not Post processing--Except to reduce the size to fit in CR post.
Enjoy learn some thing old and some thing new with me.
Your Friend.
Surapon

PS, These Photos of the back yard of my home in this afternoon = 2:00PM, Bright sun shine = Sunny 16.

"The basic rule is, "On a sunny day set aperture to f/16 and shutter speed to the [reciprocal of the] ISO film speed [or ISO setting] for a subject in direct sunlight."[1] For example:

    On a sunny day and with ISO 100 film / setting in the camera, one sets the aperture to f/16 and the shutter speed to 1/100 or 1/125 second (on some cameras 1/125 second is the available setting nearest to 1/100 second).
    On a sunny day with ISO 200 film / setting and aperture at f/16, set shutter speed to 1/200 or 1/250.
    On a sunny day with ISO 400 film / setting and aperture at f/16, set shutter speed to 1/400 or 1/500.

As with other light readings, shutter speed can be changed as long as the f-number is altered to compensate, e.g. 1/250 second at f/11 gives equivalent exposure to 1/125 second at f/16. More in general, the adjustment is done such that for each step in aperture increase (i.e., decreasing the f-number), the exposure time has to be halved (or equivalently, the shutter speed doubled), and vice versa. This follows the more general rule derived from the mathematical relationship between aperture and exposure time — within reasonable ranges, exposure is proportional to the square of the aperture ratio and proportional to exposure time; thus, to maintain a constant level of exposure, a change in aperture by a factor c requires a change in exposure time by a factor 1/c² and vice-versa. Steps in the aperture always correspond to a factor close to the square root of 2, thus the above rule."
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 02:45:56 PM by surapon »

AcutancePhotography

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Re: Need help, Please " Sunny 16 Rules"
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2013, 12:12:58 PM »
The great thing about DSLRs is that you can use the Sunny 16 as your starting point.  Then you can chimp to a better exposure in real time.  ;D
I shoot with a Camera Obscura with an optical device attached that refracts and transmits light

surapon

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Re: Need help, Please " Sunny 16 Rules"
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2013, 01:41:10 PM »
The great thing about DSLRs is that you can use the Sunny 16 as your starting point.  Then you can chimp to a better exposure in real time.  ;D

Yes, Sir, You are right on the target, Dear Mr. AcutancePhotography.
Great thing for our DSLR., We just see the LCD both Picture and Histograms, and adjust the exposure that we love , start from the rule of " Sunny 16"-----Yes, The Manual program  for us as the starting " PRO ".
Thanks you, Sior.
Nice to talk to you.
Surapon

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Re: Need help, Please " Sunny 16 Rules"
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2013, 01:53:41 PM »
I remember when I was a young lad with one of my first cameras the battery for the TTL metering died and I had to resort to using the exposure settings given on the inside of the film box - ie bright sun 60th @f16. ( must have been 64 ASA film. I was baffled by the results which, often as not were better than when using the TTL meter. It was after this a got an incident light meter.

surapon

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Re: Need help, Please " Sunny 16 Rules"
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2013, 02:38:45 PM »
I remember when I was a young lad with one of my first cameras the battery for the TTL metering died and I had to resort to using the exposure settings given on the inside of the film box - ie bright sun 60th @f16. ( must have been 64 ASA film. I was baffled by the results which, often as not were better than when using the TTL meter. It was after this a got an incident light meter.

Dear sir, Mr. Sporgon.
Yes, That was the last guess after the Dead battery, It happens to me too.
Wow, Great Old day, We have 24 Films or 36 films in the Camera, And High cost of money if we miss the setting of the camera.
Yes, Great Old days------THINKS, before shoot, and not waste any films.
NOW, Cheap Memory card and can reuse 1,000 times---Many of us ( Photographer by Hobby) forget to think before press the shutter.
Nice to talk to you, Sir.
Surapon
« Last Edit: October 16, 2013, 02:52:57 PM by surapon »

DigitalDivide

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Re: Need help, Please " Sunny 16 Rules"
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2013, 03:25:49 PM »
The rule still works, but film had a wider tolerance for missing the ideal exposure.

<snip>

Thus, ASA 100 became ASA200.  Really Confusing, but the wide latitude allowed by film allowed this to happen without overexposing.  That's why absolute accuracy really wasn't a big deal.

This is true of print film, but slide film has a much narrower exposure latitude.  It is often said that the exposure needs to be dead on when shooting slides.  I'm not sure the same is true of today's digital DSLRs, which have a pretty impressive dynamic range - 12 or more stops.  While nailing the exposure is certainly important when using the technique of exposing to the right in order to avoid blowing the highlights, I would think that a fair amount of underexposure can be tolerated at the cost of gradually decreasing shadow detail.

I am a relatively late convert to digital photography, having upgraded from an EOS 10S to a 5D mk2 early last year.  I have been struggling with exposure on the 5D2, trying to improve my ETTR technique but finding that I frequently have to take multiple shots and fiddle with the exposure compensation before I get it right (I typically shoot in aperture priority mode).  I shot slides with the 10S for over 20 years, and the exposure was almost always spot on.  I used the exposure compensation only for backlit subjects and other tricky scenes, again with very good results.

I still shoot film occassionally with my small collection of medium format cameras, relying on a Voigtlander clip-on lightmeter for those without a built-in meter, and again I rarely have a problem with exposure.  I am puzzled as to why I have so much trouble with the 5D2.  This is tangential to the subject of this thread so perhaps I should post it elsewhere, but I am curious as to how the modern DSLR metering and exposure behavior compares to the film era.

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Re: Need help, Please " Sunny 16 Rules"
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2013, 03:25:49 PM »

Valvebounce

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Re: Need help, Please " Sunny 16 Rules"
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2013, 05:35:30 AM »
Dear Mr Surapon.
A well executed demonstration of the sunny 16 rules for us. It is said a picture is worth a thousand words and it would seem that all the words above the images trying to describe the technique are rendered redundant by your 4 images.
Thank you for your effort to make this demonstration. For following an old rule it shows that it is possible to achieve basically sound images with new technology.

Cheers Graham.
7D + Grip, 40D + Grip, 20D, EF-S 17-85 Kit lens, EF 70-200 f2.8 L IS II USM, EF 2x III, Sigma 150-500, Sigma 17-70 f2.8-4 C, 50mm f1.8, 550EX some Filters Remotes Macro tubes Tripod heads etc!
20D, BG-E2N, 17-85mm, 50mm are pre loved. :)
(300D Saved a holiday, E-FS 18-55 Cosina 100-300 retired)

surapon

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Re: Need help, Please " Sunny 16 Rules"
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2013, 06:35:35 AM »
Dear Mr Surapon.
A well executed demonstration of the sunny 16 rules for us. It is said a picture is worth a thousand words and it would seem that all the words above the images trying to describe the technique are rendered redundant by your 4 images.
Thank you for your effort to make this demonstration. For following an old rule it shows that it is possible to achieve basically sound images with new technology.

Cheers Graham.

Dear sir, Mr. Graham.
You are welcome, Sir, But I have to give the Good word to Sir, Dear Teacher, Mr.Mt Spokane . , who explain to us, the back ground of this theory " Sunny 16" , which we all can use, when our batteries in the Camera are dead.( Film Camera only---Not DSLR).
Nice to talk to you, Sir.
Surapon.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 02:01:32 PM by surapon »

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Re: Need help, Please " Sunny 16 Rules"
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2013, 06:35:35 AM »