October 26, 2014, 03:21:27 AM

Author Topic: Wait for the Canon 5D Mark IV or get the Mark III?  (Read 70022 times)

StudentOfLight

  • Canon 70D
  • ****
  • Posts: 319
  • I'm on a life-long journey of self-discovery
    • View Profile
Re: Wait for the Canon 5D Mark IV or get the Mark III?
« Reply #105 on: November 02, 2013, 06:29:34 PM »
Firstly... I have both 5D-III and the 6D so I speak from personal experience

Now consider... DSLRs are crap for shooting general video. The only reason to go the DSLR video route is if you really want to do lots of shallow depth of field shots and you want to spend tons of money, time and effirt to get cine type results.

Now on to your question...
Since money is a concern consider getting the 6D and a camcorder. That way you have the benefit of full frame, high ISO and the capability to EASILY shoot general video and on occasion shoot shallow-depth-of-field-shots with the 6D.

The only reason to consider the 5D-III is if you really need the AF system.

OSD
Fantasy Gear:
TS-E: 45mm f/2.8 L-II,  EF: 40mm f/0.8,  100mm f/1.4,  35-85mm f/1.8, 
EF with 1.4xInt: 100-300mm f/4 ,  500mm f/5.6 L

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Wait for the Canon 5D Mark IV or get the Mark III?
« Reply #105 on: November 02, 2013, 06:29:34 PM »

m3tek44

  • PowerShot G1 X II
  • ***
  • Posts: 45
    • View Profile
Re: Wait for the Canon 5D Mark IV or get the Mark III?
« Reply #106 on: November 02, 2013, 06:48:02 PM »
You know better than anyone about yourself.  Ask yourself, do you need camera now? If not and willing to wait for another 1-2 yrs sure why not....
5D Mark III/60D (sold) /  24-70mm f2.8L / 16-35mm f2.8L II / 70-200mm f2.8L IS II/ 85mm f1.8/ 580EX II

StudentOfLight

  • Canon 70D
  • ****
  • Posts: 319
  • I'm on a life-long journey of self-discovery
    • View Profile
Re: Wait for the Canon 5D Mark IV or get the Mark III?
« Reply #107 on: November 02, 2013, 07:33:10 PM »

...
None of what is said here is in any way meant to bash the 5d3,  it's a fantastic camera.  Hell, one of the reasons i am using my 6d more now is to put less miles on the 5d3.  What i am saying though is this  - do you need everything the 5d3 brings to the table?  If you were upgrading from a 7d, and use the 7d's AF system to the maximum level, if you shoot sports and wildlife, then yes - the 5d3 is probably the better choice.  But if your not doing that, then, snag a 6d and use the savings to buy a nice lens!

+1 Chuck, it's like you take the words right out of my mouth!

Although I would say snag a 6D, and some flashes. While a good camera-body and lens is handy, good light is always more handy ;)
Fantasy Gear:
TS-E: 45mm f/2.8 L-II,  EF: 40mm f/0.8,  100mm f/1.4,  35-85mm f/1.8, 
EF with 1.4xInt: 100-300mm f/4 ,  500mm f/5.6 L

noel

  • Power Shot G7X
  • **
  • Posts: 15
    • View Profile
Re: Wait for the Canon 5D Mark IV or get the Mark III?
« Reply #108 on: November 02, 2013, 10:33:18 PM »
Hm, okay, thank you, Neuroanatomist. Great points. (I love this list.)

Now it's down to the wire, I have to make my decision tomorrow to get a good deal...

StudentofLight, I have a few questions for you: How is the autofocus on the 6? I've read that it's sluggish under normal conditions. This really worries me. I don't have a lot of tolerance for this.

What about the fewer cross type focus points, does this seem to make any difference? (I'm guessing the above question is related to this...)

Lastly, does the 97% (or something) viewfinder make a difference to you?

I was psyched about the 2 cards on the 5dmiii, but I can live w/o that.

I'd really appreciate your thoughts.

N



What about the less good
Current camera: Film, Canon EOS A2E (love it, but need a DSLR asap)

StudentOfLight

  • Canon 70D
  • ****
  • Posts: 319
  • I'm on a life-long journey of self-discovery
    • View Profile
Re: Wait for the Canon 5D Mark IV or get the Mark III?
« Reply #109 on: November 03, 2013, 01:51:01 AM »
The 6D's AF-system is better than the 5D2 which has served pro-photographers well since 2008. The centre AF point is phenomenal, this link may be of interest (http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/50043373). Anyway I find it more than adequate. The 6D's centre AF-point works all the way down to -3Ev while the 5D3 stops working at about -2Ev.

Shooting Techniques:
With the 6D my personal shooting style is to shoot wider than necessary and crop in post. 20MP goes a long way, so basically I use the center AF-point mainly. The other approach is to lock focus and recompose to shoot but depending on how much your scene changes in that time and your depth of field you can get out-of-focus shots. Another tip is to use high contrast areas on your subject to focus-recompose.

I don't know what lenses you are using but these can also be a limiting factor, both in terms of AF-acquisition speed and cross-type AF-support. Even with the newest firmware on the 5D3, some of the f/2.8 lenses (like my non-L 100mm Macro) are not fully supported for periferal cross-type AF points. For this lens only cross-types in the central section of the AF-array work as cross-types the others just work as conventional AF-points.

In terms of your AF needs, will your subject be moving erratically or toward and away from you? If this is the case then the AF-tracking abilities of the 5D3 offer a definite advantage. The option to use expanded AF-assist points  in AI-servo mode is necessary for high-speed action like sports or wildlife photography.

In terms of viewfinder accuracy... Do you process your images yourself or do you pass them on to a colleague straight-out-of-camera? Both the 6D and 5D3 have similar image quality to the 1DX, which is only 18MP so I'm not shy to crop away 10-15% in post to straighten and compose a shot to make it 100% presentable. It'll still be bigger than a 1DX pic  ;D.

OSD

If I were in your position I would look at the price-difference between the teo bodies and think about what you could get with that money instead, like a flash or a lens. If the AF system is more valuable to you than that other item/items then get the 5D3. If it's not get the 6D + other item/items.
Fantasy Gear:
TS-E: 45mm f/2.8 L-II,  EF: 40mm f/0.8,  100mm f/1.4,  35-85mm f/1.8, 
EF with 1.4xInt: 100-300mm f/4 ,  500mm f/5.6 L

Niki

  • Rebel T5i
  • ****
  • Posts: 127
    • View Profile
Re: Wait for the Canon 5D Mark IV or get the Mark III?
« Reply #110 on: November 03, 2013, 04:49:39 AM »
the canon 5d mark IV might not have raw VIDEO…if you need that

Marsu42

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 4828
  • ML-66d / 100L / 70-300L / 17-40L / 600rts
    • View Profile
    • 6D positive spec list
Re: Wait for the Canon 5D Mark IV or get the Mark III?
« Reply #111 on: November 03, 2013, 05:55:52 AM »
The 6D's AF-system is better than the 5D2 which has served pro-photographers well since 2008. The centre AF point is phenomenal

The 6d's af system is an improvement in terms of precision (see lensrentals on this), but otherwise that doesn't mean much ... I definitely wouldn't call the center point "phenomenal" with f2.8+ lenses but find it to be rather erratic with my 100L lens when trying to lock on low-contrast surfaces, that's because @f2.8 it's non-cross it and this really shows. Also of course focus & recompose induces a lot of problems because the outer points are so few and don't have f2.8 precision at all.

the canon 5d mark IV might not have raw VIDEO…if you need that

I doubt if Canon will really remove the firmware hooks for Magic Lantern raw processing on the 5d4, it's a major sales factor and not everyone can afford a 1dc... the real danger is that the 2-3 people working on Magic Lantern raw will be busy with other projects in the future and there won't be a ML at all for the 5d4 (or 70d or 7d2, for that matter).

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Wait for the Canon 5D Mark IV or get the Mark III?
« Reply #111 on: November 03, 2013, 05:55:52 AM »

noel

  • Power Shot G7X
  • **
  • Posts: 15
    • View Profile
Re: Wait for the Canon 5D Mark IV or get the Mark III?
« Reply #112 on: November 03, 2013, 06:38:40 AM »
Thank you, all!

Yes, I am planning on buying the 24-70 f 2.8 lens. (I have a 28-80 on my film camera now, and use the 2.8 for depth of field). I do most photojournalism work, so things (i.e. people) are generally moving around, but not with the speed of sports.

The thought of being able to grab a shot truly quickly is mighty appealing. To me, there is nothing worse then that feeling of: attempting to focus, camera can't quite get it, I reframe a little (maybe go for a slightly more contrast area), refocus and hope the focus kicks in, camera still can't get it, I reset the focal point or my framing just a bit, again, try to refocus, etc.  -- only to have lost the shot at this point, as the camera didn't respond more quickly. By then, I'm worried that trying focus, recompose will again mess with my composition/depth of field.

I never use the A1 Servo, would make a difference? In other words, can you "fix" the sluggish AF by simply shooting in Servo?

My film camera is an A2E which has that old eye tracking control (where you look is where you focus). I know a lot of people didn't care for that, but for me, it has worked wonderfully, otherwise, I just use center-point focus, too.

I need to learn more about the cross-type focusing, I've tried online and still don't get it entirely. My understanding is that if there isn't a cross point, it can be difficult to focus in that area. Because I am coming from a film camera, it's hard to know if a digital slr w/ fewer cross points will be any more difficult to focus then what I am used to now. I sort of get the feeling that digital technology, by it's nature, makes it more difficult to focus w/o a lot of cross-points (compared to plain old focusing w. film cameras). But I may be way off here.

StudentofLight, that's helpful to hear that I should shoot a little wider. I'm not yet a "post" person. I like to take pictures and compose in the camera. And really don't care for sitting at computers. If I go w/ the 6, I'll take your advice, though. Thank you!

Marsu42, what do you mean that you "find it to be rather erratic with my 100L lens when trying to lock on low-contrast surfaces, that's because @f2.8 it's non-cross." I didn't realize the f top effected the cross points. (Oh, so much to learn!).

 As for video, thank you, Niki. Thought it was RAW but I'll check. Unless I can get af on video, I'm going to mostly ignore the video for the most part, and use my old vid camera.

Noel


Current camera: Film, Canon EOS A2E (love it, but need a DSLR asap)

Marsu42

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 4828
  • ML-66d / 100L / 70-300L / 17-40L / 600rts
    • View Profile
    • 6D positive spec list
Re: Wait for the Canon 5D Mark IV or get the Mark III?
« Reply #113 on: November 03, 2013, 07:48:16 AM »
Marsu42, what do you mean that you "find it to be rather erratic with my 100L lens when trying to lock on low-contrast surfaces, that's because @f2.8 it's non-cross." I didn't realize the f top effected the cross points. (Oh, so much to learn!).

Indeed, this is a rather tricky problem with the 6d/5d3 af system... you have to differentiate between pattern detection and precision. Here's my layman explanation:

* pattern detection: a cross-type af point can detect horizontal (example: venetian blinds) and vertical lines (example: fence), and thus is more reliable to focus on low-contrast surface. On the 5d2/6d the outer af points are either horizontal *or* vertical and thus will fail more often - you need to focus on a contrast and then recompose.

* precision: some af points are not precise enough for the thin depth of field of f2.8+ lenses - such as the 5d2/6d outer points and some Rebels - this means that with a slower lens you'll never experience any problems (probably that's why Canon released the 24-70/4LIS as f4...), but with a fast lens you'll get more out of focus shots.

Here's the catch: The 5d2/6d centeral af point is non-cross (horizontal only) @f2.8, but cross @f5.6, meaning if it cannot focus with the f2.8 line it will fall back to the f5.6 cross. So for example shooting with the 100L wide open it'll be fine on contrasty objects, but I find myself getting more slight oof shots on tricky objects :-\

StudentOfLight

  • Canon 70D
  • ****
  • Posts: 319
  • I'm on a life-long journey of self-discovery
    • View Profile
Re: Wait for the Canon 5D Mark IV or get the Mark III?
« Reply #114 on: November 03, 2013, 08:21:55 AM »
Marsu42 is correct, and a good explanation of contrast AF.

I admit I was perhaps a little exuberant with my statement that the 6D's centre AF-point is "phenomenal". But in my post I did also recommend aiming at high-contrast areas to acquire focus. Anyway, if you aim either one of the cameras at a scene with insufficient contrast then both will fail to acquire focus.

To satisfy my own curiosity, I just did a focus speed test with the 100mm Macro in poor lighting conditions. I used a grey lens pounch from one of the L-lenses as the "low-contrast" target. I used a tripod and unchanged ambient lighting.

In my test the 6D centre AF-point focused in about 2.1 seconds. The 5D3 centre AF-point focused in about 3.4 seconds. Of course there the possibility to use expanded-AF acquisition on the the 5D3 (using 4 or 8 AF-assist points) in which case it took between 0.9-1.3 seconds to acquire focus.
Fantasy Gear:
TS-E: 45mm f/2.8 L-II,  EF: 40mm f/0.8,  100mm f/1.4,  35-85mm f/1.8, 
EF with 1.4xInt: 100-300mm f/4 ,  500mm f/5.6 L

noel

  • Power Shot G7X
  • **
  • Posts: 15
    • View Profile
Re: Wait for the Canon 5D Mark IV or get the Mark III?
« Reply #115 on: November 03, 2013, 08:25:22 AM »
This is an amazing explanation. Thank you so much. I can't believe it takes so many others, so long, to get to the same point, online (not here, other sites).

Sounds like if I am shooting with my 24-70, 2.8, as soon as I open up past 5.6 or go for a shallow depth of field, I may loose some of the sharp or fast focus on the 6D. Or, for that matter, I could run into a focus problem potentially anywhere (including the center point) depending on my depth of field or contrast of my subject? In other words, the focus on the 6D will work best if you use the center point and always focus on something above 5.6 and w/greater contrast?

When you refer to precision, are you also suggesting that even some of the cross-type points aren't as precise as others, and there are differences in precision between differently located cross-type points? Or, just between cross and non-cross?

Sounds like the reviews say the focus is okay in low light which confuses me, based on what you a re saying. But it's probably all relative (to the Nikon for example). Since I don't do a lot of super low light shooting, this isn't my biggest concern.

I guess this leads me to think about two things: should I err on the side of the 5dmiii to avoid some of these issues and/or should I rethink my decision to buy a 24-70mm f 2.8 lens. (But I do love the 2.8 depth of field)?

StudentofLight, interesting test (and thank you!). I'm curious about why it look longer, originally, with the 5d3.

N
Current camera: Film, Canon EOS A2E (love it, but need a DSLR asap)

noel

  • Power Shot G7X
  • **
  • Posts: 15
    • View Profile
Re: Wait for the Canon 5D Mark IV or get the Mark III?
« Reply #116 on: November 03, 2013, 08:33:37 AM »
StudentofLight, one other question... When you used the expanded AF acquisition, I'm assuming you used more cross points around it? Does that get in the way, visually, of you composing your shot?

I can't thank you all enough for this help!

Noel
Current camera: Film, Canon EOS A2E (love it, but need a DSLR asap)

Marsu42

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 4828
  • ML-66d / 100L / 70-300L / 17-40L / 600rts
    • View Profile
    • 6D positive spec list
Re: Wait for the Canon 5D Mark IV or get the Mark III?
« Reply #117 on: November 03, 2013, 08:38:07 AM »
I just did a focus speed test with the 100mm Macro in poor lighting conditions.

As in many other 6d tests this is worthless (sorry) if you don't specify the LV of the scene (you can calculate it from aperture/shutter/iso value) - the 5d3 is supposed to focus up to -2 LV, the 6d center up to -3 LV ... question is from which LV downwards is the 6d quicker to do so, even if it's somewhat brighter than -2LV.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Wait for the Canon 5D Mark IV or get the Mark III?
« Reply #117 on: November 03, 2013, 08:38:07 AM »

StudentOfLight

  • Canon 70D
  • ****
  • Posts: 319
  • I'm on a life-long journey of self-discovery
    • View Profile
Re: Wait for the Canon 5D Mark IV or get the Mark III?
« Reply #118 on: November 03, 2013, 09:43:42 AM »
StudentofLight, one other question... When you used the expanded AF acquisition, I'm assuming you used more cross points around it? Does that get in the way, visually, of you composing your shot?

Noel, on the 5D3 you can choose the expanded AF to either 4 or 8 AF-points adjacent to the focus point that you have selected to assist with achieving focus. If the selected point struggles to focus then it tries to get focus from a neighboring AF-point. The Assist points could be either cross-type or basic depending on which point you select as the center.
Fantasy Gear:
TS-E: 45mm f/2.8 L-II,  EF: 40mm f/0.8,  100mm f/1.4,  35-85mm f/1.8, 
EF with 1.4xInt: 100-300mm f/4 ,  500mm f/5.6 L

noel

  • Power Shot G7X
  • **
  • Posts: 15
    • View Profile
Re: Wait for the Canon 5D Mark IV or get the Mark III?
« Reply #119 on: November 03, 2013, 09:55:40 AM »
Perfect, thanks. That's what I kinda thought. And you don't find all those points distracting/cover up the subject?

N
Current camera: Film, Canon EOS A2E (love it, but need a DSLR asap)

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Wait for the Canon 5D Mark IV or get the Mark III?
« Reply #119 on: November 03, 2013, 09:55:40 AM »