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Author Topic: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras  (Read 160718 times)

zlatko

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #105 on: October 16, 2013, 08:57:45 PM »
I don't worry a bit about Canon's sensor tech.  It's amazing, especially as to resolution, dynamic range and color resolution.  No problems with it at all.  I'm also very pleased with the improvements from one generation to the next.
Aah! I almost couldn't tell if you were joking or being serious.

Please use some  ::) :o :-* :P ;D faces when telling a joke.
100% serious.  I'm making great photos with Canon.  Their sensor technology proves itself week after week.  Also, Canon service is phenomenal.  I broke 2 lenses in an accident last week and received them fixed by Canon in just 7 days door to door; that includes shipping time and a 3-day holiday weekend.

Sure you can take nice photos with a Canon DSLR and maybe they have good service but what does that have to do with top DR, resolution, color sensitivity?? You should run for political office  ;) ;D.

The point is that they offer a great system backed by great service.  It's not about scoring high on a gear test site.  It's about actual use by photographers in a great many applications.  Again ... Canon sensors may not meet the standards of some anonymous people, but they meets the standards of a long list of renowned photographers, and a much longer list of not-renowned but very good working photographers and videographers.  How is that possible?  The reason is that sensors long ago met the technical threshold for high quality work.  At this point, worrying about the optimal sensor is about as productive as worrying about the optimal color of one's underwear.

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #105 on: October 16, 2013, 08:57:45 PM »

Normalnorm

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #106 on: October 16, 2013, 09:02:11 PM »
(and the ones that are lured away may find it isn't necessarily going to meet all their needs).

As others have stated, the lens selection is terrible. For those who are excited about adapters to mount EF lenses while retaining AF, all other current examples of this are almost completely worthless if AF speed is of concern to the type of work you do.

The appeal for me is a quasi-open system that allows me to choose what sensor to attach to what lens. IOW, I would be very happy to attach my Canon 17 TS-E onto a 36MP FF camera AND also be able to use the Nikkor 14-24 f2.8. My style of photography is tripod mounted, Live View focus images. AF would be nice with the Nikkor but as I am never shooting action or BIF it is not an issue for me.
For events where snappy AF and cool lenses are required I would choose the Olympus as the lenses and the larger DOF would get me more keepers. The AF is fast enough to keep up with wedding action so, for me, that would be ideal.

As noted, depending on the style of photography one would make different choices.

I am also confident that Sony will offer a better lineup of lenses but I am also confident that people will whine about the price.

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #107 on: October 16, 2013, 09:18:25 PM »
At this point, worrying about the optimal sensor is about as productive as worrying about the optimal color of one's underwear.

Maybe for you, but not for everyone including skilled and serious photographers. And I be willing to be that even you could make use of more DR from time to time if you had it.

Sure you can take endless photos where you don't need it, but why be limited to those endless scenarios when there are endless others where it would make a difference?

And saying that you don't need more is one thing and fine enough but making it sound like Canon is class leading in MP and DR and has been making big strides each recent generation is another thing and it's factually not true.

zlatko

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #108 on: October 16, 2013, 09:25:49 PM »
I don't worry a bit about Canon's sensor tech.  It's amazing, especially as to resolution, dynamic range and color resolution.  No problems with it at all.  I'm also very pleased with the improvements from one generation to the next.

Wow, how much does Canon pay you to shill for them?? How is 2.5 stops worse DR, 50% less MP and modestly less color resolution, truly amazing, world beating?? How is not having improved DR or MP for more than half a decade very pleasing sensor improvements from generation to generation (OK at high ISO maybe, but not at low ISO).

Canon pays me zero.  I pay them.  Is everything about scoring highest on a few select parameters on a gear test site?  What about the rest of the system, from the option to switch to a smaller raw file size to certain unique lenses to ergonomic factors to color when photographing humans (not test charts)?

How is it that some people find a car to be excellent for their needs when it doesn't have the biggest engine, fastest acceleration, heaviest towing capacity, shortest braking, highest headroom, etc.?  How can anyone be happy with a car that isn't the absolute best in the world in every parameter we choose to measure?

roguewave

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #109 on: October 16, 2013, 09:34:41 PM »
I don't worry a bit about Canon's sensor tech.  It's amazing, especially as to resolution, dynamic range and color resolution.  No problems with it at all.  I'm also very pleased with the improvements from one generation to the next.

Wow, how much does Canon pay you to shill for them?? How is 2.5 stops worse DR, 50% less MP and modestly less color resolution, truly amazing, world beating?? How is not having improved DR or MP for more than half a decade very pleasing sensor improvements from generation to generation (OK at high ISO maybe, but not at low ISO).

Canon pays me zero.  I pay them.  Is everything about scoring highest on a few select parameters on a gear test site?  What about the rest of the system, from the option to switch to a smaller raw file size to certain unique lenses to ergonomic factors to color when photographing humans (not test charts)?

How is it that some people find a car to be excellent for their needs when it doesn't have the biggest engine, fastest acceleration, heaviest towing capacity, shortest braking, highest headroom, etc.?  How can anyone be happy with a car that isn't the absolute best in the world in every parameter we choose to measure?

I also find your logic confusing, to say the least - unless you are not entirely honest about who pays who between you and Canon :-).

First you rave about Canon's "car" having an amazing "engine". As soon as people show that the engine lacks compared to the competition, you sidestep the point and talk about the warranty service. Or that the engine does not matter, only the whole car does. I don't necessarily disagree, but the original argument was about the engine :-).

Dylan777

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #110 on: October 16, 2013, 09:37:22 PM »

No need to get rid of all your Canon glass, with an adaptor for the Sony you could keep using them and save yourself A LOT of money. That Sony/Zeiss glass is even more overpriced than Canon glass :P!

Putting an adapter + L lens(es) on A7 or A7R would kill the primary purpose of mirrorless. You might as well stay with Canon DSLR + L lenses.

??? How?

It means you finally Exmor DR for shooting and you don't have to sell Canon glass and try to buy Nikon lenses.

A bulky lens on a tiny body, that's how you kill the primary purpose of mirrorless.

I don't give a dam about DR(current 5D III & 1D X are fine), I bought A7 for one reason: 35mm sensor in tiny body so I can carry around.

ksagomonyants

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #111 on: October 16, 2013, 09:43:57 PM »
Loyalty to Canon comes not only from their products but also from their customer/technical support. Sony's customer support is known to be bad and one doesn't want to wait 1-2 months for their DSLRs/mirrorless cameras to be fixed.

I'd personally wait for Canon's response to this announcement. Will see what their anticipated high MP camera is going to bring, and it seems it'll be released faster than we thought. Apparently the regular 3-4 year cycles for DSLR releases will be gone soon.

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #111 on: October 16, 2013, 09:43:57 PM »

zlatko

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #112 on: October 16, 2013, 09:50:50 PM »
At this point, worrying about the optimal sensor is about as productive as worrying about the optimal color of one's underwear.

Maybe for you, but not for everyone including skilled and serious photographers. And I be willing to be that even you could make use of more DR from time to time if you had it.

Sure you can take endless photos where you don't need it, but why be limited to those endless scenarios when there are endless others where it would make a difference?

And saying that you don't need more is one thing and fine enough but making it sound like Canon is class leading in MP and DR and has been making big strides each recent generation is another thing and it's factually not true.

As I said, Canon's DR meets the standards of a long list of renowned photographers, and a much longer list of not-renowned but very good working photographers and videographers.  Could one use more DR?  Of course.  We can always use more of everything.  I could use the 36mp and low-ISO DR of the D800, but then I'd have to put up with with other aspects of that system (which for me outweigh the benefit).  I might find a use for a car that can tow a house, but that might not be the car I want to buy. 

Photographers choose gear based on how it meets their actual needs, not based on "endless other scenarios" where some other gear might perform better some day.  The new Sony A7 will fit some scenarios wonderfully, but perhaps not others.  Should an A7 buyer worry that the A7 won't meet endless other scenarios where some other camera might be better?  I don't think so.

I didn't say or make it sound that Canon is "class leading" in MP or DR.  I did say that each generation of camera has met my needs better than the previous one and that the things that some anonymous people complain about are just not an issue for me.

zlatko

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #113 on: October 16, 2013, 10:08:20 PM »
I don't worry a bit about Canon's sensor tech.  It's amazing, especially as to resolution, dynamic range and color resolution.  No problems with it at all.  I'm also very pleased with the improvements from one generation to the next.

Wow, how much does Canon pay you to shill for them?? How is 2.5 stops worse DR, 50% less MP and modestly less color resolution, truly amazing, world beating?? How is not having improved DR or MP for more than half a decade very pleasing sensor improvements from generation to generation (OK at high ISO maybe, but not at low ISO).

Canon pays me zero.  I pay them.  Is everything about scoring highest on a few select parameters on a gear test site?  What about the rest of the system, from the option to switch to a smaller raw file size to certain unique lenses to ergonomic factors to color when photographing humans (not test charts)?

How is it that some people find a car to be excellent for their needs when it doesn't have the biggest engine, fastest acceleration, heaviest towing capacity, shortest braking, highest headroom, etc.?  How can anyone be happy with a car that isn't the absolute best in the world in every parameter we choose to measure?

I also find your logic confusing, to say the least - unless you are not entirely honest about who pays who between you and Canon :-).

First you rave about Canon's "car" having an amazing "engine". As soon as people show that the engine lacks compared to the competition, you sidestep the point and talk about the warranty service. Or that the engine does not matter, only the whole car does. I don't necessarily disagree, but the original argument was about the engine :-).

Wow, you're going to keep running with this baseless insult about payment?!  This is a serious problem with online forums — anonymous people don't feel bound by norms of civility; instead they feel at liberty to make up lies about others. 

Canon's "engine" works just fine.  I stand by that.  For proof, just look at the work of some rather good photographers and videographers who use Canon.  Don't make me make a list of them ... because it would be very long.  One doesn't judge a camera system by the unseen work (or constant complaints) of anonymous people on the Internet.

rpt

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #114 on: October 16, 2013, 10:34:08 PM »
It ups the game a bit for sure.  Sony have been ploughing their own furrow and seem to abandon technoogies as quickly as they develop them, no SLT here by the looks of it.

Canon also have they advantage that an EF lens will work on any EOS camera is well established with plenty of choice from budget to high performing.

The Sony idea of letting you fit the APS-C lenses with cropping is a goody (as do Nikon, I appreciate the mirror on 135/leica/minature format EOS cameras prohibits this)
+1

And don't forget what ML can do! Dual ISO and other stuff... I am waiting for their next release on the 5D3 even if it is another Alpha release.

roguewave

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #115 on: October 16, 2013, 10:48:16 PM »
I don't worry a bit about Canon's sensor tech.  It's amazing, especially as to resolution, dynamic range and color resolution.  No problems with it at all.  I'm also very pleased with the improvements from one generation to the next.

Wow, how much does Canon pay you to shill for them?? How is 2.5 stops worse DR, 50% less MP and modestly less color resolution, truly amazing, world beating?? How is not having improved DR or MP for more than half a decade very pleasing sensor improvements from generation to generation (OK at high ISO maybe, but not at low ISO).

Canon pays me zero.  I pay them.  Is everything about scoring highest on a few select parameters on a gear test site?  What about the rest of the system, from the option to switch to a smaller raw file size to certain unique lenses to ergonomic factors to color when photographing humans (not test charts)?

How is it that some people find a car to be excellent for their needs when it doesn't have the biggest engine, fastest acceleration, heaviest towing capacity, shortest braking, highest headroom, etc.?  How can anyone be happy with a car that isn't the absolute best in the world in every parameter we choose to measure?

I also find your logic confusing, to say the least - unless you are not entirely honest about who pays who between you and Canon :-).

First you rave about Canon's "car" having an amazing "engine". As soon as people show that the engine lacks compared to the competition, you sidestep the point and talk about the warranty service. Or that the engine does not matter, only the whole car does. I don't necessarily disagree, but the original argument was about the engine :-).

Wow, you're going to keep running with this baseless insult about payment?!  This is a serious problem with online forums — anonymous people don't feel bound by norms of civility; instead they feel at liberty to make up lies about others. 

Canon's "engine" works just fine.  I stand by that.  For proof, just look at the work of some rather good photographers and videographers who use Canon.  Don't make me make a list of them ... because it would be very long.  One doesn't judge a camera system by the unseen work (or constant complaints) of anonymous people on the Internet.

Well, I thought a smiling face was enough to indicate that I was joking along the lines of LetTheRightLensIn's words. If it wasn't, I apologize - I was joking and I didn't mean to insult you.

However, that does not mean that I agree with you. If you had initially said that Canon's engine "works just fine", that's one thing. Instead, you had made claims that it's "amazing", in areas like DR, resolution, which clearly aren't its strenghts.

I agree that many distinguished photographers have great success with Canon... but that does not prove that the sensor is amazing. As you said yourself, photographers judge the complete system. I am sure they chose Canon for other reasons and not because their sensor's DR and resolution are so great.

So, while I have no reason to draw conclusions about payment, your claims and your reluctance to admit the obvious as far as the "engine", do make you look biased toward Canon.

verysimplejason

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #116 on: October 16, 2013, 10:54:02 PM »

No need to get rid of all your Canon glass, with an adaptor for the Sony you could keep using them and save yourself A LOT of money. That Sony/Zeiss glass is even more overpriced than Canon glass :P!

Putting an adapter + L lens(es) on A7 or A7R would kill the primary purpose of mirrorless. You might as well stay with Canon DSLR + L lenses.

??? How?

It means you finally Exmor DR for shooting and you don't have to sell Canon glass and try to buy Nikon lenses.

A bulky lens on a tiny body, that's how you kill the primary purpose of mirrorless.

I don't give a dam about DR(current 5D III & 1D X are fine), I bought A7 for one reason: 35mm sensor in tiny body so I can carry around.

I think that's according to your requirements (or definition for that matter) but not for most of us.  For me, it's being able to serve as a backup body and as an able, compact walk-around body.  You can buy a compact lens or two and yet have it take a bulky lens when you need it.  I imagine, it'll also be a good landscape body when you want something lighter but doesn't mind the bulk while retaining or getting better IQ.  E.g., my backpack is big enough to contain a DSLR but I would like to keep the weight down as much as possible to preserve my back.  Yup, a native, light compact lens might do it, but my 17-40mm seems light enough for me and my wallet.

gmrza

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #117 on: October 16, 2013, 10:54:07 PM »
Loyalty to Canon comes not only from their products but also from their customer/technical support. Sony's customer support is known to be bad and one doesn't want to wait 1-2 months for their DSLRs/mirrorless cameras to be fixed.

I'd personally wait for Canon's response to this announcement. Will see what their anticipated high MP camera is going to bring, and it seems it'll be released faster than we thought. Apparently the regular 3-4 year cycles for DSLR releases will be gone soon.

That is what I am hoping - that Canon will respond.  Competition is the best thing for a market.
Sony has an uphill battle on its hands as it is behind on service and overall system - photographers buy into a system (which includes flash systems, speciality lenses etc.) not just one body.

I see small mirrorless bodies only addressing a portion of the market - mainly where portability trumps ergonomics and features.  Beyond that, the ergonomics of a full-size DSLR body with a vertical grip provide the best package for serious enthusiast and professional use - providing a good control layout and a physically balanced package which works well with large lenses.
For those who have to make do with what they can fit into an airline baggage allowance, or even a backpack which they can shoulder for days on end, this smaller kind of camera is a godsend.  A smaller, less obtrusive system is also a boon to street photographers, who dislike the intimidating appearance of professional DSLRs.
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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #117 on: October 16, 2013, 10:54:07 PM »

RobertP

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #118 on: October 16, 2013, 11:39:56 PM »
Can someone explain the advantage of mirrorless cameras to me. If I'm having to tote a big lens to get 24-70 and f2.8 then I'm not going to buy into a system just to get a smaller camera body. I always thought Canon's EF to M lens adaptor was a silly idea. It seemed to offer photographers a way to combine the inferior performance of the M1 with the bulk of an APS-C.

I actually don't want a 24-70. I like taking pictures inside churches - I like medieval architecture - so I want something wider than 24 on a quiet camera that works well in low light. If the Sony's get great reviews and a decent wide angle lens was available from somewhere then I might be tempted but at the moment my Christmas present list still has a 5Dmk iii and a 16-35 lens on it. 

zlatko

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #119 on: October 16, 2013, 11:42:25 PM »
I don't worry a bit about Canon's sensor tech.  It's amazing, especially as to resolution, dynamic range and color resolution.  No problems with it at all.  I'm also very pleased with the improvements from one generation to the next.

Wow, how much does Canon pay you to shill for them?? How is 2.5 stops worse DR, 50% less MP and modestly less color resolution, truly amazing, world beating?? How is not having improved DR or MP for more than half a decade very pleasing sensor improvements from generation to generation (OK at high ISO maybe, but not at low ISO).

Canon pays me zero.  I pay them.  Is everything about scoring highest on a few select parameters on a gear test site?  What about the rest of the system, from the option to switch to a smaller raw file size to certain unique lenses to ergonomic factors to color when photographing humans (not test charts)?

How is it that some people find a car to be excellent for their needs when it doesn't have the biggest engine, fastest acceleration, heaviest towing capacity, shortest braking, highest headroom, etc.?  How can anyone be happy with a car that isn't the absolute best in the world in every parameter we choose to measure?

I also find your logic confusing, to say the least - unless you are not entirely honest about who pays who between you and Canon :-).

First you rave about Canon's "car" having an amazing "engine". As soon as people show that the engine lacks compared to the competition, you sidestep the point and talk about the warranty service. Or that the engine does not matter, only the whole car does. I don't necessarily disagree, but the original argument was about the engine :-).

Wow, you're going to keep running with this baseless insult about payment?!  This is a serious problem with online forums — anonymous people don't feel bound by norms of civility; instead they feel at liberty to make up lies about others. 

Canon's "engine" works just fine.  I stand by that.  For proof, just look at the work of some rather good photographers and videographers who use Canon.  Don't make me make a list of them ... because it would be very long.  One doesn't judge a camera system by the unseen work (or constant complaints) of anonymous people on the Internet.

Well, I thought a smiling face was enough to indicate that I was joking along the lines of LetTheRightLensIn's words. If it wasn't, I apologize - I was joking and I didn't mean to insult you.

However, that does not mean that I agree with you. If you had initially said that Canon's engine "works just fine", that's one thing. Instead, you had made claims that it's "amazing", in areas like DR, resolution, which clearly aren't its strenghts.

I agree that many distinguished photographers have great success with Canon... but that does not prove that the sensor is amazing. As you said yourself, photographers judge the complete system. I am sure they chose Canon for other reasons and not because their sensor's DR and resolution are so great.

So, while I have no reason to draw conclusions about payment, your claims and your reluctance to admit the obvious as far as the "engine", do make you look biased toward Canon.

The topic of "payment to shill" isn't really funny, so I didn't take it as a joke.  When it comes up, it appears to be a baseless attempt to undermine my statements and attack my character.  As I'm not anonymous, I respond to that as I did.

I'll qualify my initial statement that DR, resolution and color are "amazing" with Canon gear by saying they are amazing to me.  I don't claim they are "class leading" or whatever.  But they are amazing to me because I know where we've been with DR, resolution and color in the past, and the technology has come a long way since then, to the point that it is amazing to me and meets my needs amazingly well.  Based on that, I am "biased" toward Canon ... to the point that I willingly buy and use their gear (as many other people here do).

I expect the A7/A7r to be amazing too, but not because of DR, resolution or color — none of which I have complaints about with my current gear.  Instead, the amazing part is the dramatic reduction in full-frame camera size & weight.

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #119 on: October 16, 2013, 11:42:25 PM »