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Author Topic: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras  (Read 63771 times)

Zv

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #255 on: December 04, 2013, 09:09:40 PM »
I recently had a play about with an A7 in a store. Seems like a nice, medium sized camera. Decent weight to it and solid build. The only issue I had with it was the EVF. I don't think I could get used to it. It's not as "instant" as OVF. There's a small but noticeable lag, you know you're looking at a screen. Maybe I'm just not used to it but I also don't think it would be all that great for any real demanding work. I guess a lot of landscapers won't care about EVF though.

Do Mirrorless cameras need EVF?? Seems to me if you're gonna view the live image you might as well do it on the larger, clearer and better LCD on the back. I love Magic Lantern's "magic zoom" function on the EOS M. Seriously awesome feature. Don't miss the viewfinder all that much.
 
Also not related but it was lying next to the A7 was the Nikon Df. Has anyone else tried moving those dials with one hand?? Impossible! They're all locked with a metal pin that you push down, it's a two handed affair!! All advantage of dials LOST! Fail.
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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #255 on: December 04, 2013, 09:09:40 PM »

weixing

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #256 on: December 04, 2013, 09:33:25 PM »
Hi,
    Try out the Sony 7R... quite like the build and the design, but don't like to the EVF (especially in low light) and also the shutter release... the first time I press the shutter, I thought something had fallen off the camera...  :P I still prefer the feel of my 6D silent shutter.

    Have a nice day.

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #257 on: December 04, 2013, 10:39:48 PM »
I still don't understand who these full frame mirorrless cameras are aimed at, aside from a hobbyist with a lot of money to burn.

-Average consumer, it is too expensive
-Camera-oriented gadget freak, would probably rather have a cameraphone like the Lumia 1020
-Compact camera fan, the zoom lenses are too big to truck around - all these pics don't look much smaller than a 6D w/ lens.
-Professional, would rather have a real DSLR with viewfinder through lens, more physical buttons, big lens selection, bigger body to grip

So what is left for this camera? Hobbyists with a lot of cash?  I guess that is the market they are going for.
I bought one. i'm a 32 year old who has been in to photography since learning in a darkroom in the early 90's with my mom's old Minolta.
For years, i was dissatisfied with digital cameras because of their poor image quality and generally stayed away. In 2008 I bought a top of the line Sony Cyber Shot for a 3 month backpacking trip to South America. In 2010 I was in Hong Kong traveling and finally bought a Canon DSLR. I was excited to have better image quality. i was never happy with APS-C, the crop factor, and always wanted the best low light abilities. I traveled for about 10 months using the 550D and taking tons of photos.
 After I finished traveling I wanted something to better suit my 24-105 lens, so I traded up to a used 5DC but it always seemed a little antiquated(terrible AF and back screen.)
So, I bought a used D700 and 24-70 2.8 for the AF and image quality. It was simply amazing, but after traveling in Japan for a month last year, my shoulders and back were sore every day from hanging 5 pounds around my neck and shoulders for 8 to 10 hours a day of walking around and sightseeing. Additionally, I like to carry a camera in my bag and when I walk to my work, or come home I like to take some pictures. This is at night and poor image quality annoys me, but my D700 took up my WHOLE backpack and made it a chore to carry, the opposite of fun.
So, I have been eagerly awaiting something that offers top of the line image quality, but in a size that doesn't hurt my shoulders and back. Something that is manageable.
Sure, my D700 is fantastic, and If I had to have the best chance of getting the picture, i'd use that(mostly because of the AF and great ergonomics), but, I simply never carried it in my bag, so I was never able to use it.
If I go to local game, or I just want to go out for a few hour and shoot some pictures, I can use my D700 no problem. but for carrying daily in my backpack, backpacking, hiking, or for my wife, the a7 is 1000x times better.
I don't make money on my photos... but I do enjoy doing it. And I could never say I enjoyed carrying my D700 around.
i bought my a7 last week. I got a small very high quality case for it and it now sits in my backpack every day.
When I go to work, or go out, I ALWAYS have it now. I don't even notice it's in my bag.
So now, photography can be a fun hobby for me again, instead of a (literally) pain in the neck, back and shoulders.

And, this is saying nothing about how AWESOME the a7 is at manual focusing. This is something I loved about my early days but had totally lost using DSLRs.  I Love slowing down a little bit, composing my shots, using focus peaking and magnification and focusing myself! Despite it's small size, the a7 does have all the manual controls, knobs and buttons of a normal DSLR. The layout and programmable buttons are far easier and more useful to me than the D700 or 5DC. The Sony a7 is the closest thing to the old school shooting experience I have seen outside of the Leica.

In all, I'd say the a7 is for anyone who appreciates having absolute top image quality but doesn't want to carry a huge DSLR. This could be anyone.
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Zv

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #258 on: December 05, 2013, 12:41:55 AM »
I still don't understand who these full frame mirorrless cameras are aimed at, aside from a hobbyist with a lot of money to burn.

-Average consumer, it is too expensive
-Camera-oriented gadget freak, would probably rather have a cameraphone like the Lumia 1020
-Compact camera fan, the zoom lenses are too big to truck around - all these pics don't look much smaller than a 6D w/ lens.
-Professional, would rather have a real DSLR with viewfinder through lens, more physical buttons, big lens selection, bigger body to grip

So what is left for this camera? Hobbyists with a lot of cash?  I guess that is the market they are going for.
I bought one. i'm a 32 year old who has been in to photography since learning in a darkroom in the early 90's with my mom's old Minolta.
For years, i was dissatisfied with digital cameras because of their poor image quality and generally stayed away. In 2008 I bought a top of the line Sony Cyber Shot for a 3 month backpacking trip to South America. In 2010 I was in Hong Kong traveling and finally bought a Canon DSLR. I was excited to have better image quality. i was never happy with APS-C, the crop factor, and always wanted the best low light abilities. I traveled for about 10 months using the 550D and taking tons of photos.
 After I finished traveling I wanted something to better suit my 24-105 lens, so I traded up to a used 5DC but it always seemed a little antiquated(terrible AF and back screen.)
So, I bought a used D700 and 24-70 2.8 for the AF and image quality. It was simply amazing, but after traveling in Japan for a month last year, my shoulders and back were sore every day from hanging 5 pounds around my neck and shoulders for 8 to 10 hours a day of walking around and sightseeing. Additionally, I like to carry a camera in my bag and when I walk to my work, or come home I like to take some pictures. This is at night and poor image quality annoys me, but my D700 took up my WHOLE backpack and made it a chore to carry, the opposite of fun.
So, I have been eagerly awaiting something that offers top of the line image quality, but in a size that doesn't hurt my shoulders and back. Something that is manageable.
Sure, my D700 is fantastic, and If I had to have the best chance of getting the picture, i'd use that(mostly because of the AF and great ergonomics), but, I simply never carried it in my bag, so I was never able to use it.
If I go to local game, or I just want to go out for a few hour and shoot some pictures, I can use my D700 no problem. but for carrying daily in my backpack, backpacking, hiking, or for my wife, the a7 is 1000x times better.
I don't make money on my photos... but I do enjoy doing it. And I could never say I enjoyed carrying my D700 around.
i bought my a7 last week. I got a small very high quality case for it and it now sits in my backpack every day.
When I go to work, or go out, I ALWAYS have it now. I don't even notice it's in my bag.
So now, photography can be a fun hobby for me again, instead of a (literally) pain in the neck, back and shoulders.

And, this is saying nothing about how AWESOME the a7 is at manual focusing. This is something I loved about my early days but had totally lost using DSLRs.  I Love slowing down a little bit, composing my shots, using focus peaking and magnification and focusing myself! Despite it's small size, the a7 does have all the manual controls, knobs and buttons of a normal DSLR. The layout and programmable buttons are far easier and more useful to me than the D700 or 5DC. The Sony a7 is the closest thing to the old school shooting experience I have seen outside of the Leica.

In all, I'd say the a7 is for anyone who appreciates having absolute top image quality but doesn't want to carry a huge DSLR. This could be anyone.

I also enjoy the odd manual focusing only I went the cheaper route of -

EOS M + FD adaptor + $90 Canon FD 50 1.4 (found on ebay) + Magic Lantern.

I also have zebras and focus peaking and manual only fun but for a fraction of the cost. Sure it's not FF but with a few tweeks in LR images come out just fine.

Just sayin.

Seems a bit strange to buy a $1500 digital camera just to use it as a manual focus only camera. Are you planning on buying additional E mount lenses with it?

Tell you what, have a look at this set of images I took. Some were with the EOM & 22mm f/2 and others were with my 5D2 & ... well if I told you that it would make it too easy. Try and see which ones are which!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/zanjum/sets/72157637909346605/
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 12:48:39 AM by Zv »
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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #259 on: December 05, 2013, 05:31:00 AM »
In all, I'd say the a7 is for anyone who appreciates having absolute top image quality but doesn't want to carry a huge DSLR. This could be anyone.

+1 exactly!


Sony A7/R compared to Canon EOS 6D (smallest Canon FF-DSLR)

Sony A7R + FE 24-70/4 OSS (SonyZeiss) = 895 g
Canon 6D + EF 24-70/4 IS                         = 1370 g
Size comparison: http://j.mp/1dDS5hu

Sony A7R + FE 35/2.8 =  527 g
Canon 6D + EF 40/2.8 = 900 g
Size comparison: http://j.mp/1dliIKV

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #260 on: December 05, 2013, 07:14:48 AM »
I don't see from your pictures, with lens attached, how a 3% reduction in depth and 10% reduction width turns a dslr from 'huge' into compact. If anything it looks like it would take up nearly the same amount of space with lens  in the bag but have an inferior grip.  Less weight is nice, but when you are talking 900g vs 550g with lens, I think even the weakest person would be okay with either.

on the other hand, slap a 70-200 f/2.8 on both and I think you will see the ergonomics of the a7 fail big time!
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 07:19:57 AM by Ruined »

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #261 on: December 05, 2013, 08:30:34 AM »
I don't see from your pictures, with lens attached, how a 3% reduction in depth and 10% reduction width turns a dslr from 'huge' into compact. If anything it looks like it would take up nearly the same amount of space with lens  in the bag but have an inferior grip.  Less weight is nice, but when you are talking 900g vs 550g with lens, I think even the weakest person would be okay with either.

on the other hand, slap a 70-200 f/2.8 on both and I think you will see the ergonomics of the a7 fail big time!

Maybe a 70-200/2.8 is not the go-to lens for everybody? Most of my shots are either <100mm (95%) or >200mm (5%). I'm keeping my DSLR for use with telezooms, but I'm happily in the process of swapping my other lenses for an a7 body and I preordered the Zeiss 24-70/4.

EchoLocation has nailed it perfectly. Hike up and down mountains for a whole day and see if you don't notice the difference - and it has nothing to do with physical strength, since you don't hike naked holding an empty backpack.

It might not reflect your own priorities, but for many people it has been a blessing. I don't know why in this forum people think that their experiences/preferences must be the rule for the whole world.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 08:32:23 AM by Albi86 »

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #261 on: December 05, 2013, 08:30:34 AM »

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #262 on: December 05, 2013, 08:44:51 AM »
Been shooting all week with it now. Dynamic range over a stop better than my 1dx. Noise is similar.

Summary from a Canon Landscape Photographer

Sony A7R Cons:

- Needs battery grip to balance EF lenses properly.
- Slow autofocus with Metabones Adaptor. One shot AF is slow and AI servo is not accurate.
- Only 4 fps, so not suitable for sport
- Battery charger not included. The battery charges from either an AC or USB source, in camera. Separate charger is $79. If you have a battery grip and don’t have a separate charger, you need to remove the grip and place individual batteries in the camera body to charge.

Sony A7R Pros:

- When used with native FE lenses there is fast and accurate AF. It is a perfect setup for street photography. Remove the grip, and you’re good to go incognito.
- Fantastic Sensor with great dynamic range. Arguably the best of any current DSLR.
- Low noise. ISO up to 51200, still very usable
- 36.4 megapixel sensor – over 50% more than any current Canon DSLR sensor.
- When used with a grip, EF lenses (up to 100mm) balances well.
- Excellent EVF, Easy to manual focus with focus magnifier
- Customizable buttons and controls.
- Cost $2398.00 AUD – likely to be 1/3 the price of any future large megapixel Canon offering.

In Summary:

A great addition to the kit of any current Canon Landscape Photographer, particularly if your clients favour large prints. You can use all your existing favourite EF lenses, and manual focus is easy and quick. Factor in the cost of a grip, extra battery and an external charger though.





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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #263 on: December 05, 2013, 08:48:00 AM »
I don't see from your pictures, with lens attached, how a 3% reduction in depth and 10% reduction width turns a dslr from 'huge' into compact. If anything it looks like it would take up nearly the same amount of space with lens  in the bag but have an inferior grip.  Less weight is nice, but when you are talking 900g vs 550g with lens, I think even the weakest person would be okay with either.

on the other hand, slap a 70-200 f/2.8 on both and I think you will see the ergonomics of the a7 fail big time!

yes, I agree to some point. I've deliberately picked the "worst possible view on size". :-)
In front or rear view one gets a better sense, just how much smaller an A7/R is compared to even the smallest FF DSLR, even with lens mounted. Much less obtrusive too (important to me for street shooting and other situations).   

Main issue are the lenses. Neither Canon nor Sony have the kind of pancakes/ultracompact lenses to go "small and light" - sole exception the EF 40/2.8 which I really like. The Sony FE 35/2.8 is ok for me sizewise, but not pricewise [not even with Zeiss written on it]. Unfortunately no wide angle pancake (e.g. 20/4) or ultra-compact tele (e.g. 85/2.8) on either side (yet).   

70-200 ... depends. I use it quite a bit tripod mounted ... then it will be just fine on an A7/R with adapter. Hand-held I'll have to try it, once I get my hands on an A7/R. Bigger issue for me is the (apparently) extremely slow AF (if at all working) via adapter ... and in poor light on top.

Reported A7/R shutter noise irks me as well. Was really hoping for a silent "concert cam". Looks like the mirrorslappin' 5D III in "silent" mode is a better option for that. Too bad! 

Ruined

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #264 on: December 05, 2013, 08:50:35 AM »
I don't see from your pictures, with lens attached, how a 3% reduction in depth and 10% reduction width turns a dslr from 'huge' into compact. If anything it looks like it would take up nearly the same amount of space with lens  in the bag but have an inferior grip.  Less weight is nice, but when you are talking 900g vs 550g with lens, I think even the weakest person would be okay with either.

on the other hand, slap a 70-200 f/2.8 on both and I think you will see the ergonomics of the a7 fail big time!

yes, I agree to some point. I've deliberately picked the "worst possible view on size". :-)
In front or rear view one gets a better sense, just how much smaller an A7/R is compared to even the smallest FF DSLR, even with lens mounted. Much less obtrusive too (important to me for street shooting and other situations).   

Main issue are the lenses. Neither Canon nor Sony have the kind of pancakes/ultracompact lenses to go "small and light" - sole exception the EF 40/2.8 which I really like. The Sony FE 35/2.8 is ok for me sizewise, but not pricewise [not even with Zeiss written on it]. Unfortunately no wide angle pancake (e.g. 20/4) or ultra-compact tele (e.g. 85/2.8) on either side (yet).   

70-200 ... depends. I use it quite a bit tripod mounted ... then it will be just fine on an A7/R with adapter. Hand-held I'll have to try it, once I get my hands on an A7/R. Bigger issue for me is the (apparently) extremely slow AF (if at all working) via adapter ... and in poor light on top.

Reported A7/R shutter noise irks me as well. Was really hoping for a silent "concert cam". Looks like the mirrorslappin' 5D III in "silent" mode is a better option for that. Too bad!

I see where you are going, and the A7 would be truly smaller with a pancake, but that limits your photography to primes which is not ideal IMO.  The size of the FF zooms appear to defeat the purpose of a mirrorless camera, unlike the APS-C mirrorless zooms which actually are quite compact.

In terms of the 70-200 2.8, I struggle with that lens handheld on a rebel, so I don't know how I'd possibly handle it on an a7.  I am good with it on the 6d-5d etc though.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 08:52:21 AM by Ruined »

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #265 on: December 05, 2013, 09:58:18 AM »

Hilarious, and unfortunately, too the point.

I think it may be a long wait for a similar piece of gear from Canon, Mirrorless does seem to be something Canon want to be in because everyone else is, but they concentrate on the FF DSLR market and possibly intend to remain that way for some time.

The news on new M disappointed me and I went and purchased the a7r, I like what I see so far, some things I'm not so happy with (The EVF takes some getting used to when you've never used one before), but I feel that way about my 1Dx & 5DMK III as well, but I do think Sony have a reasonable winner in the a7r, it's such a pity they decided to bring it to market with such abysmal support, in Singapore when I picked up the a7r they had just the Zoom Kit lens from Sony, or the Zeiss 35, which is a lovely Lens. I think if you stick to the Zeiss Lenses that will become available for the a7r over the next 12 months or so the Sony becomes a viable system, won't replace the 1Dx in any way, but might replace the 5DMK III.

As of right now, there is no other camera can replace 1D X eml58  ;D

As an owner of 5D III, I do agree with you A7 series is good candicate to replace 5D III in slower shooting. Wedding shooter might be able to get away with just two A7 plus some of these lenses: Zeiss 35mm, 55mm, 85mm, and 135mm. The weight reduction will be HUGE.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 10:04:11 AM by Dylan777 »
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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #266 on: December 05, 2013, 10:26:48 AM »
...

yes, I agree to some point. I've deliberately picked the "worst possible view on size". :-)
In front or rear view one gets a better sense, just how much smaller an A7/R is compared to even the smallest FF DSLR, even with lens mounted. Much less obtrusive too (important to me for street shooting and other situations).   

Main issue are the lenses. Neither Canon nor Sony have the kind of pancakes/ultracompact lenses to go "small and light" - sole exception the EF 40/2.8 which I really like. The Sony FE 35/2.8 is ok for me sizewise, but not pricewise [not even with Zeiss written on it]. Unfortunately no wide angle pancake (e.g. 20/4) or ultra-compact tele (e.g. 85/2.8) on either side (yet).   

...

I picked up a EF 28 f/2.8 IS when it went on sale for 350, and it is much smaller than my other lenses.  Only had took a couple snaps to make sure that it was functioning ok and to set the AFMA roughly, but I was impressed by its compact size and IQ.  Never tried the EF 40 f/2.8 but it is even smaller.  So a set of compact primes (24 f/2.8 IS, 28 f/2.8 IS, 35 f/2 IS, 40) exist for the EOS system.  The difference in body size is not that significant to me because it's really lens + camera that matters, and if it doesn't fit in a pocket, then I'll be bringing a camera bag anyway.

The thing that bothers me, is that the lenses being offered for the A7/A7R are slow and expensive.  35 f/2.8,  28-70 (f/4-?), 24-70 f/4, 50 f/1.8...  I see the advantages for landscape users like LightandMotion, because he can get a high IQ FF sensor at a good price and does not need AF.  And those that have lots of vintage glass can use them with appropriate adaptors, but how big are these market segments?  The slower lenses allow them to be more compact, but restricts their use indoors in ambient light.  I'd rather use a 35 f/1.4 at ISO 3200 rather than a 35 f/2.8 at ISO 12800, where noise and DR suffer significantly.  And the faster the glass, the larger the lens, and the less advantage the mirrorless system has.

I'm all for mirrorless versions of the 5D, 6D, etc in due time.  Without a physical shutter, the sync speed and frame rate can increase.  Focus peaking will be nice but only if the EVF reaches the quality/responsiveness of the OVF.  More MP in smaller packages with higher frame rates will require more processing power, and battery chemistry has not changed.  It's not surprising that these mirrorless offerings have abysmal battery life' they're using the same technology as DSLRs, their batteries are smaller and the electronics are active all the time.  Unfortunately, there aren't any good technologies to replace Li-ion, so the battery will need to be bigger.

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #267 on: December 05, 2013, 10:33:27 AM »
Sony A7R Cons:
- Battery charger not included. The battery charges from either an AC or USB source, in camera. Separate charger is $79.

On top of crap battery life, you have to plug the camera in to charge the battery…Sony, WTF?!?
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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #267 on: December 05, 2013, 10:33:27 AM »

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #268 on: December 05, 2013, 10:48:37 AM »
Sony A7R Cons:
- Battery charger not included. The battery charges from either an AC or USB source, in camera. Separate charger is $79.

On top of crap battery life, you have to plug the camera in to charge the battery…Sony, WTF?!?
I´m not sure this is a bad thing. A camera like this will attract a different user community than a 1DX. These users will not fire off high fps series shooting wildlife, birds or sports, but rather use it as a walk around on a vacation, for family arrangements, street photography etc. That will primarily mean single shots and not in the thousands. And they will have easy access to a computer with USB or use the same USB charger they have for their mobile phone, which again requires less hardware and they can charge it every night.

At the moment it does not appeal to me though, but you never know ...

Elm58; It will be interesting to read your views on this camera, when you´ve had it for a while. You seem to be a more extreme user than most :)
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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #269 on: December 05, 2013, 11:00:56 AM »
Sony A7R Cons:
- Battery charger not included. The battery charges from either an AC or USB source, in camera. Separate charger is $79.

On top of crap battery life, you have to plug the camera in to charge the battery…Sony, WTF?!?
I´m not sure this is a bad thing. A camera like this will attract a different user community than a 1DX. These users will not fire off high fps series shooting wildlife, birds or sports, but rather use it as a walk around on a vacation, for family arrangements, street photography etc. That will primarily mean single shots and not in the thousands.

Personally when walking around on vacation, if I'm out walking around, I want my camera with me, and if I'm not out walking around, I'm sleeping.  On many vacations, I average well over 300 shots per day - kinda hard on a 200 shot battery, right?  When out shooting landscapes/architecture, I use battery power at a faster rate than the number of shots would imply, due to time spent composing, tilting and shifting in Live View.

OTOH, having the ability to charge via USB in addition to a standalone charger is a nice feature, given that there are charging stations in airports, etc. (in fact, in a park in downwotn Boston, there are chairs with solar-powered USB chargers!).
EOS 1D X, EOS M, and lots of lenses
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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #269 on: December 05, 2013, 11:00:56 AM »