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Author Topic: A Loose Roadmap [CR1]  (Read 13758 times)

gmrza

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Re: A Loose Roadmap [CR1]
« Reply #45 on: October 02, 2011, 06:02:03 PM »

You mean will the G series be replaced by mirrorless?

Interesting thought ... would those that buy the G series go for that?

Or is the G series waiting for other new technology that isn't yet complete or allowed by cost?

That is what I am wondering.  The problem is that mirrorless spans a multitude of EVILs (excuse the pun).  Depending on price, size, features and lenses, it could span anywhere from where the G series sits to where the Leica M9 sits.  That may give a hint as to why runaway success is eluding the mirrorless segment at the moment.

I guess my biggest quibbles with my G11 are the sensor size (and associated DoF and noise issues), the shutter lag and f/2.8 not being bright enough at the short end.  In reality I don't need an interchangeable lens system for my pocketable camera.  If I want anything longer than about 150mm (35mm normalised) I may as well use a DSLR.  That requirement set shows absolutely no need to a compact system camera!


That said, I think that in the longer term, the days of reflex mirrors are numbered.  Within 5 years it would not surprise me if most "single lens cameras" have done away with the reflex mirror.  The biggest stumbling block may still be a decent EVF.
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Re: A Loose Roadmap [CR1]
« Reply #45 on: October 02, 2011, 06:02:03 PM »

moreorless

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Re: A Loose Roadmap [CR1]
« Reply #46 on: October 03, 2011, 05:22:45 AM »
That is what I am wondering.  The problem is that mirrorless spans a multitude of EVILs (excuse the pun).  Depending on price, size, features and lenses, it could span anywhere from where the G series sits to where the Leica M9 sits.  That may give a hint as to why runaway success is eluding the mirrorless segment at the moment.

I guess my biggest quibbles with my G11 are the sensor size (and associated DoF and noise issues), the shutter lag and f/2.8 not being bright enough at the short end.  In reality I don't need an interchangeable lens system for my pocketable camera.  If I want anything longer than about 150mm (35mm normalised) I may as well use a DSLR.  That requirement set shows absolutely no need to a compact system camera!

That said, I think that in the longer term, the days of reflex mirrors are numbered.  Within 5 years it would not surprise me if most "single lens cameras" have done away with the reflex mirror.  The biggest stumbling block may still be a decent EVF.

Thats always been my feeling, espeically now the Nikon's smaller mirrorless doesnt seem to save much space.

I wouldnt be supprized if the delay to the G13 is a response to the X10, manifactures should really have been pushing up sensor size for manual high end compacts well before now so hopefully that camera kicks off a shift in that direction? The X10's lens size doesnt seem to have become that large even with the large appature thoughout the range so I can see potential for Canon to push things even further with sensor size.

If Canon creates an interchangeble lens mirrorless then I think there better off aiming above not below m43.  To me the most obvious gap in the market right now seems to be between the X100 and NEX, crop size sensor, a couple of bodies(one larger prenium with a hybrid OVF/EVF and one budget without) and a range of small primes that balance well with those bodies.

Rocky

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Re: A Loose Roadmap [CR1]
« Reply #47 on: October 04, 2011, 10:20:14 PM »
That said, I think that in the longer term, the days of reflex mirrors are numbered.  Within 5 years it would not surprise me if most "single lens cameras" have done away with the reflex mirror.  The biggest stumbling block may still be a decent EVF.
The biggest stumbling bock should be a good fast AF. We may say that The New Nikon mirrorless has both contrast detector and phrase detector built into the sensor(??). But Nikon may be holding the patent right on it. So it will be off limit to other manufacturer.   If we are using mirrorless, we can just use the LCD screen at teh back of the camera as view finder. All point and shoot user are doing it. we do not need EVF and use the mirrorless like a DSLR.
On the other hand, Canon can build a copy of the M9 with Leica M mount and made a new line of lenses. Canon is fully capable of doing it. Canon has been making Leica copies for decaded until the 60's. The patent right of M mount has expired afew years back.

moreorless

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Re: A Loose Roadmap [CR1]
« Reply #48 on: October 05, 2011, 03:06:36 AM »
That said, I think that in the longer term, the days of reflex mirrors are numbered.  Within 5 years it would not surprise me if most "single lens cameras" have done away with the reflex mirror.  The biggest stumbling block may still be a decent EVF.
The biggest stumbling bock should be a good fast AF. We may say that The New Nikon mirrorless has both contrast detector and phrase detector built into the sensor(??). But Nikon may be holding the patent right on it. So it will be off limit to other manufacturer.   If we are using mirrorless, we can just use the LCD screen at teh back of the camera as view finder. All point and shoot user are doing it. we do not need EVF and use the mirrorless like a DSLR.
On the other hand, Canon can build a copy of the M9 with Leica M mount and made a new line of lenses. Canon is fully capable of doing it. Canon has been making Leica copies for decaded until the 60's. The patent right of M mount has expired afew years back.

The biggest drawback will IMHO be using an EVF, the current generation are still IMHO pretty poor looking and I have my doubts they'll ever look great given the size limations.

The NEX seems to show that mirrorless ultimately does not have THAT big an impact on lens size and most serious photogra0hers are not going to want a grossly unbalanced body,. If the body is held back my having to balance the lens(and include the current amount of manual controls) and the lens arent that much smaller then is a much smaller reduction in size worth giving up the OVF for?

My feeling is that we'll probabley see the high end market spilt between DSLR's with the current wide range of zooms and large sensor ultra compact mirrorless that use mostly primes.

kubelik

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Re: A Loose Roadmap [CR1]
« Reply #49 on: October 05, 2011, 02:33:27 PM »
That is what I am wondering.  The problem is that mirrorless spans a multitude of EVILs (excuse the pun).  Depending on price, size, features and lenses, it could span anywhere from where the G series sits to where the Leica M9 sits.  That may give a hint as to why runaway success is eluding the mirrorless segment at the moment.

I guess my biggest quibbles with my G11 are the sensor size (and associated DoF and noise issues), the shutter lag and f/2.8 not being bright enough at the short end.  In reality I don't need an interchangeable lens system for my pocketable camera.  If I want anything longer than about 150mm (35mm normalised) I may as well use a DSLR.  That requirement set shows absolutely no need to a compact system camera!

That said, I think that in the longer term, the days of reflex mirrors are numbered.  Within 5 years it would not surprise me if most "single lens cameras" have done away with the reflex mirror.  The biggest stumbling block may still be a decent EVF.

Thats always been my feeling, espeically now the Nikon's smaller mirrorless doesnt seem to save much space.

I wouldnt be supprized if the delay to the G13 is a response to the X10, manifactures should really have been pushing up sensor size for manual high end compacts well before now so hopefully that camera kicks off a shift in that direction? The X10's lens size doesnt seem to have become that large even with the large appature thoughout the range so I can see potential for Canon to push things even further with sensor size.

If Canon creates an interchangeble lens mirrorless then I think there better off aiming above not below m43.  To me the most obvious gap in the market right now seems to be between the X100 and NEX, crop size sensor, a couple of bodies(one larger prenium with a hybrid OVF/EVF and one budget without) and a range of small primes that balance well with those bodies.

I don't necessarily think the G-series needs to move into the interchangeable lens arena in order to compete.  my ideal G13 would be the followings:

sensor size between 2/3" and 4/3" sensors ... 1" sensor?  similar to Nikon's 1/CX sensor
integrated lens, 24-70mm equivalent, f/2 fixed
good FPS (5+)
HD video options
EVF
smaller than Nikon 1/CX

if this sold for G-series prices (~$500), would you buy it?  I'd definitely buy it instead of the Nikon 1/CX cams.

I feel like camera companies miss the point when they make interchangeable lens systems on very small sensors.  people don't want interchangeable lenses just to have interchangeable lenses.  they want them so that they can shoot differently.  what's the point of a wide fast prime if your sensor offers you no DOF control?  what's the point of a supertelephoto if your AF tracking and body handling characteristics suck?

I feel like people buying cameras in this mid-range segment want a do-it-all upgrade from their do-it-all P&S, or they want a backup camera from their existing DSLR system.  the G-series does that just fine, and would do it even better with a slightly larger sensor and a wide-angle wide-aperture built-in zoom lens.

moreorless

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Re: A Loose Roadmap [CR1]
« Reply #50 on: October 05, 2011, 10:14:23 PM »
I don't necessarily think the G-series needs to move into the interchangeable lens arena in order to compete.  my ideal G13 would be the followings:

sensor size between 2/3" and 4/3" sensors ... 1" sensor?  similar to Nikon's 1/CX sensor
integrated lens, 24-70mm equivalent, f/2 fixed
good FPS (5+)
HD video options
EVF
smaller than Nikon 1/CX

if this sold for G-series prices (~$500), would you buy it?  I'd definitely buy it instead of the Nikon 1/CX cams.

I feel like camera companies miss the point when they make interchangeable lens systems on very small sensors.  people don't want interchangeable lenses just to have interchangeable lenses.  they want them so that they can shoot differently.  what's the point of a wide fast prime if your sensor offers you no DOF control?  what's the point of a supertelephoto if your AF tracking and body handling characteristics suck?

I feel like people buying cameras in this mid-range segment want a do-it-all upgrade from their do-it-all P&S, or they want a backup camera from their existing DSLR system.  the G-series does that just fine, and would do it even better with a slightly larger sensor and a wide-angle wide-aperture built-in zoom lens.

That was exactly my point, I don't think the avarge buyer of a camera with a sensor between m43 and high end compacts really wants to go the interchangeble lens route if a good general purpose lens can be built in.

Whats more looking at the X10 and these new Nikons it seems to me thats the better use of space. I know the Nikons have a sensor twice as large but its zoom lens with a shorter range and a much poorer appature is alot larger than the X10's folded down. Not having to build in external tech and being able to partly fold into the body just seem like better options to me.

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Re: A Loose Roadmap [CR1]
« Reply #50 on: October 05, 2011, 10:14:23 PM »