Canon 650d or 70d

[magic_lantern_is_cool]

Hello everyone, I'm new here 

Firstly I'll say if it wasn't for the Magic Lantern firmware hack I wouldn't be looking for a Canon DSLR. So Magic Lantern is awesome as my username states .

Now back to business .

I'm looking to buy my first DSLR and I don't want to be disappointed. Am looking for the latest technology that'll hopefully last me a good couple of years. I've done my research and had decided I wanted a 600d (T3i/Rebel) or a 60D. Sadly there's a chance both will be superseded early 2012 with the 650d or 70d. Looking at previous releases it looks like there is a pattern.

450D - Early 2008
500D - Early 2009
550D - Early 2010
600D - Early 2011
650D - Early 2012 (see a pattern if all goes right it's about time for a new Rebel model)

as with the mid range 60D

30d - Early 2006
40D - Mid 2007
50D - Mid 2008
60D - Mid 2010
70D - Mid 2012 (if the pattern goes right we will see it at appropriately Mid 2012)

But something also crossed my mind, we haven't seen a High-End or Flagship Camera since Late 2009 and it's about time we seen a new 5D Mark 3, 1D Mark 5 and/or a (6d or 8d). So Canon are most likely working hard on a new one of those. So it looks like I'm out of luck. By mid next year I really wanted to see a newer version of the 600d or 60d.

I'm looking for a camera with AGC (disable-able) or at least compatible with Magic Lantern, 1080p 60fps, 720p 90fps, better ISO (love using my camera to take shoots in the dark)... all which I think is possible with their new digic 5 processor.

Do you guys think I'm out of luck.
I really want to see a 650d or 70d by mid-2012.
Otherwise I'm going to bite the bullet and get a 60d now and hopefully won't be disappointed by finding out Canon are releasing a newer model sooner than I expected.

[DJL329]

Canon is very tight-lipped about new releases, so there's no way of knowing when the next xxxD or xxD body will come out.  However, as you pointed out, the xxxD line has consistently been on an annual update schedule, so the next one will probably come out early next year.  IMO, I doubt the releases of the pro bodies (xD) is going to affect the "consumer" ones (xxxxD and xxxD).  The "pro-sumer" line (xxD) is another story, as it may have switched to a 2 year schedule, irregardless of the xD schedule.

-------------------------------
When the original 5D came out, I decided to wait, because it didn't have a feature that I wanted (live view).  I ended up waiting 3 years for the 5D Mark II to be released.  Of course, I had a 35mm SLR that I was happy with, so I could afford to wait.  In the end, I was glad I waited; you're actual happiness may vary...
-------------------------------

Have you been to a camera shop to try out the 60D or perhaps even rented it?  Maybe it does everything you need it to do?  Remember, no camera will be perfect.  There will always be a new one with some new feature down the road...

A common recommendation you'll see here is that if you need it now, buy it.  If you already have a camera and you are okay with using it for 4-6 more months, then perhaps you can afford to wait.  Maybe there's something happening in the next 3 months (vacation, someone's wedding, etc.) and you can't wait.

So, ask yourself:  do I need it now?

[Hesbehindyou]

Firstly I'll say if it wasn't for the Magic Lantern firmware hack I wouldn't be looking for a Canon DSLR. So Magic Lantern is awesome as my username states .

Fantastic isn't it; keeps me loyal to Canon.

I'm looking for a camera with AGC (disable-able) or at least compatible with Magic Lantern, 1080p 60fps, 720p 90fps, better ISO (love using my camera to take shoots in the dark)... all which I think is possible with their new digic 5 processor ... I really want to see a 650d or 70d by mid-2012 ... Otherwise I'm going to bite the bullet and get a 60d now

As DJL329 said; if you /need/ it now, buy it /now/.  You can always sell when the replacement comes out.  This is probably the best compromise.  If budget is a consideration then holding off will likely be the best option - I reckon Digic 5 will be awesome.

[Dave]

But something also crossed my mind, we haven't seen a High-End or Flagship Camera since Late 2009

I guess the earthquake has delayed the development (actually the production) in Japan at least for 6 months. So its not that far out that the 650D will be relased at the photokina 2012 (September).

so I could afford to wait

This is the first question you'll have to ask yourself: Can I afford to wait. I'm in the same position as you are. I'm waiting for the 5D3 or the 7D2. But I have a 350D and I don't care if I buy the camera now or in a year.

The second question is: Does the current SLRs have everything you need. If yes: Buy now! If the 7D would have a flip screen and the new video zoom from the 600D I would have bought one last month... This is the only thing I'm waiting for.
It is nonsense to wait for a camera because of some new features you don't know and don't need. And no matter WHEN you buy. If the successor of your comes out (and this WILL definitely happen one day) it will have some cool new features. No matter if you buy a 1100D or a 1D.

regards, Dave

[dr croubie]

If the 7D would have a flip screen and the new video zoom from the 600D I would have bought one last month...

Whereas, if the 7D mk2 has a flip screen, then i'm definitely *not* buying one, i'll keep my 7D mk1 and use it as an excuse to go FF. I'm not saying you're wrong, that's just my opinion, whether i'm in the majority or you are I have no idea. (although one thing is fairly certain, it'll be hard to keep the same level of waterproofing with the flip-screen. Not impossible, but it might push the price up a bit. I just don't see the flipscreen going higher than xxD though)

Anyway, as for the 650D and 70D, there's one certainty, in that if the 7D mk2 (or 6D if it's not a cheap FF) is not out first, then the 650/70 are going to have the same 18MP sensor. No way they'll lead a new sensor in with the xx/xxxD lines, then sales of the 7D will just go to zero until the 7D mk2 comes in with the better sensor. announced at the same tie is possible, but still unlikely.

But that said, if they have to keep the same schedule going, with 70/650D next year, they have to provide a reason to upgrade from the 60/600D. And there's not much less to upgrade without cannibalising from higher models. Flip screen and video zoom was probably the only difference between 550->600D, 60D already has the flip screen and there's not much else you can add (like AFmicroadjust, better sealing, and better AF sensor) without killing 7D sales.


So all up, I really don't think the 70/650D are going to happen before the 7D mk2. If they do, there's not going to much, if anything, to differentiate them from the 60/600D. So don't bother waiting, is my advice (or do wait, then get a cheaper older model once the new one is announced).

[neuroanatomist]

But that said, if they have to keep the same schedule going, with 70/650D next year, they have to provide a reason to upgrade from the 60/600D. And there's not much less to upgrade without cannibalising from higher models. Flip screen and video zoom was probably the only difference between 550->600D, 60D already has the flip screen and there's not much else you can add (like AFmicroadjust, better sealing, and better AF sensor) without killing 7D sales.

Digic 5 and a 1 fps bump in frame rate for the 70D (bringing the xxD line back up to where the 50D was).  Same for the T4i/650D, plus a new AF system (time to EOL the 20D's AF system that was pushed down to the xxxD line).

[Fleetie]

I don't agree that if the 650D/70D had more megapixels than the 7D, it would totally destroy sales of the 7D.

The 7D is a "luxury" APS-C camera that is a joy to use. Also, it has AF Microadjust, which the other 2 cameras probably won't. And it does 8FPS.

I took mine out yesterday for the first time in a  while, with the 24-105 L, having been doing film photography for the last couple of months. I remembered again why I love it so much!


Wandering slightly off-topic for a bit:

Frankly, the quality of pics I'm getting from the 7D totally destroys what I'm getting from film - ALTHOUGH I am suspecting issues with negative scanner or its software at the processing shop I use. I might look into that more later. Currently the 7D pics have much deeper, richer colours, and more dynamic range most of the time (!!!). And better resolution; the film scans are grainy; again, this surprises me a bit.

I shoot jpeg (!!!) and NEVER do anything in post. That is policy. I'll take the same shot again and again until I'm happy with the exposure and composition, and when I'm happy with it, that's it. And that often works very well for me. I like to get it right in the field, using the camera. Admittedly I'm just an amateur, so there are no other pressures on me. I get my pics printed at 18" x 12" which works out at about 11.5 pixels per mm, and the resolution at that size is fantastic; there's more there than the eye can see properly, really. So my 7D gives me what I need and I'm so pleased with it.

I will be buying the 5D3 pretty much as soon as it comes out, and keeping the 7D as a second body.
My reason for going full-frame is so that I can shoot in near-darkness with low noise, and to give me better DOF control, i.e. better bokeh for a given composition.

[dr croubie]

I don't agree that if the 650D/70D had more megapixels than the 7D, it would totally destroy sales of the 7D.

The 7D is a "luxury" APS-C camera that is a joy to use. Also, it has AF Microadjust, which the other 2 cameras probably won't. And it does 8FPS.

Well, true, but maybe i didn't explain my point well enough.

Say the 650/70D comes out first, and it's got something like a 24MP sensor.
Why then, would I buy the 7D with its 18MP sensor, when it's fairly obvious that the 7D mk2 will have (at least) the same 24MP sensor? (and probably better video than the 7D mk1, with video zoom etc.)

[Fleetie]

I don't agree that if the 650D/70D had more megapixels than the 7D, it would totally destroy sales of the 7D.

The 7D is a "luxury" APS-C camera that is a joy to use. Also, it has AF Microadjust, which the other 2 cameras probably won't. And it does 8FPS.

Well, true, but maybe i didn't explain my point well enough.

Say the 650/70D comes out first, and it's got something like a 24MP sensor.
Why then, would I buy the 7D with its 18MP sensor, when it's fairly obvious that the 7D mk2 will have (at least) the same 24MP sensor? (and probably better video than the 7D mk1, with video zoom etc.)

Ah, yes, I see your point. If you're prepared to wait for the 7D2, then that changes everything.

[neuroanatomist]

Firstly I'll say if it wasn't for the Magic Lantern firmware hack I wouldn't be looking for a Canon DSLR.

Is there a Magic Lantern hack available for the 7D?  No - Canon locked down the firmware to an extent that stymied the folks at ML.  So, if it's critical for you that ML works, you'd better get the 60D, or wait for comfirmation that a hack is available for the forthcoming bodies.

[Dave]

Whereas, if the 7D mk2 has a flip screen, then i'm definitely *not* buying one, i'll keep my 7D mk1 and use it as an excuse to go FF.

Than you will have to go to 1D... I'm sure that every released camera up to the 5D definetly WILL get a flip screen. If people want it or not. Flip Screen is the future. Sonys 7D competitor (Alpha 77) also has one. Canon can't afford not to implement one.

it'll be hard to keep the same level of waterproofing with the flip-screen

May be... But I don't care, I leave it to Canon to care about hat.

then sales of the 7D will just go to zero until the 7D mk2 comes

If you buy a 7D you won't buy it because of the sensor. Most people (at least in German communities) don't care about MP - neither do I. I''d buy a (current) 7D because of the superb Auto Focus (imo one of the best in market), higher ISO better shutter time etc.
So no one would abandon a 7D because of a 650D with the same sensor.

But in a way you're right. Imo Canon has to many models in the lineup
- 1100D and 600D are very close to each other
- same thing at 600D and 60D
- same thing at 600D and 7D
- same thing at 7D and 1D
etc.

So if Canon would release... let's say a 7D FF camera (labled with "5D MK II" nobody would buy a 1D. So Canon has to start at the top...
...Improve 1D
...5D
...7D
...60D
...600D

The 7D is the highest APS-C cam and the 5D is the lowest FF cam. And that's why I think a 5D always will be "worse" (concerning features) than a 7D... it HAS to be...

[moreorless]

Sales wouldnt go to "zero" but I think its pretty obvious they'd be very very badly hit, espeically if the 70D has the new sensor first.

My guess is that Canon will put out the 650D with the old 7D sensor but the new processor and market it on high FPS(plus some gimmick features) next spring then put out the 7D mk2 in the summer with the new sensor followed by the 70D with that sensor a few months latter and the 700D with it in spring 2013.

[Dave]

I'm still quite sure that the next cameras will be a 1D and/or a 5D.

The 1D will come before the Olympics... Imo that's the only thing we can take for sure. Everything else would be just stupid.
For the 5D there will be 3 options:
a) it will be released long before the 1D (may be this year)
b) it will be released at the same time with a 1D
c) it will be released at  the photokina 2012

I'm afraid c) will be the most probable way... On the other hand it is unlikely that they will release more then 3 cams on the photokina (650D, 70D, 7D).

Gruß, Dave