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Author Topic: PocketWizard, Yongnuo, or Phottix?  (Read 8727 times)

privatebydesign

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Re: PocketWizard, Yongnuo, or Phottix?
« Reply #45 on: October 31, 2013, 09:21:04 AM »

That's the way I understand it... My goal is to resurrect my wedding business and I have visualized shots with light trails entering the image and then "popping" the B&G PJ-style... Can't do that with 1st curtain...

I have done that many many times with bride and groom dance shots, often I have just used the on camera second curtain sync, until I realsied that unless the way they are dancing is important it doesn't make any difference which way the trails go! Sure for things like cars driving away with lights on from the back (from the front or side imo first curtain looks better anyway) second curtain sync is the way to go, but I have never seen a compelling wedding image that needed second curtain remote sync and there are millions of compelling wedding images out there.
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Re: PocketWizard, Yongnuo, or Phottix?
« Reply #45 on: October 31, 2013, 09:21:04 AM »

ScottyP

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Re: PocketWizard, Yongnuo, or Phottix?
« Reply #46 on: October 31, 2013, 09:53:00 AM »
I disagree I find the images sharper using second curtain as the sharp image is exposed over the top of any movement blur not the other way around

Well you might disagree, but that doesn't make you right. You have two exposures, ambient and flash, the two exposures are exactly the same, the burn in is identical with first or second curtain sync for the same ambient exposure, one is not "on top" of the other as the pixel information relays a two dimensional image, each pixels brightness is the result of the combined two exposures. Further, any movement blur is outside the sharper flash image, the pixels that record the blur are pixels that didn't get any flash exposure, so how can it matter when the flash fired?

There are a couple of good reasons for second curtain sync, but imo your examples are not one.

I think if a person is moving in one direction in the shot, the 2nd curtain makes a clearer image because there is a hard sharp leading edge.  If the subject is not really moving in one direction, or if they are moving randomly, it would not make a difference.

But I still can't understand why Canon couldn't make that work. Clearly it is not impossible if any 3rd party can take Canon's own equipment and not seem to struggle with it.
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bchernicoff

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Re: PocketWizard, Yongnuo, or Phottix?
« Reply #47 on: October 31, 2013, 10:27:01 AM »
surapon, I love your self portrait in the bathroom mirror. If I saw this image in any other context, I would want to know the story behind it!
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surapon

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Re: PocketWizard, Yongnuo, or Phottix?
« Reply #48 on: October 31, 2013, 10:38:03 AM »
surapon, I love your self portrait in the bathroom mirror. If I saw this image in any other context, I would want to know the story behind it!


Ha, Ha, Ha---Dear Mr. bchernicoff
Both my wife and My son do not like Photography, and Hard to convince them to shoot my Photos for the DIY.
Yes, I have no choice , and must shoot my self in the Mirror in the office Bath room-----Ha, Ha, Ha.---Sorry.
Nice to talk to you, and THANKSSSS for share your great Photography knowledge with us, and make me know some thing new, more and more.
Have a great day, Sir.
Surapon

wickidwombat

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Re: PocketWizard, Yongnuo, or Phottix?
« Reply #49 on: October 31, 2013, 09:18:01 PM »
I disagree I find the images sharper using second curtain as the sharp image is exposed over the top of any movement blur not the other way around

Well you might disagree, but that doesn't make you right. You have two exposures, ambient and flash, the two exposures are exactly the same, the burn in is identical with first or second curtain sync for the same ambient exposure, one is not "on top" of the other as the pixel information relays a two dimensional image, each pixels brightness is the result of the combined two exposures. Further, any movement blur is outside the sharper flash image, the pixels that record the blur are pixels that didn't get any flash exposure, so how can it matter when the flash fired?

There are a couple of good reasons for second curtain sync, but imo your examples are not one.

ok it makes a difference WHEN the flash fires because of this
the pixels are like buckets filling up with photons, as you know, since its been done to death on these forums and then some :P

so the model will get some exposure by ambient light even when standing in the shadow but this light doesn't fill the buckets very much and all of this exposure is blurry especially at 5 seconds exposure!

so in second curtain,  the second exposure by the flash fills the buckets up more and all the light on the model covers all the previous blurred exposure with nice razor sharp exposure from the shadows to highlights

now with first curtain sync the flash fires at the front filling up the buckets with sharp flash exposure and any movement of the model will add smudging movement blur from the ambient continuing to expose for those 5 seconds
this has a lesser effect in the highlight areas (since the extra ambient light is not likely to be brighter than the flashed exposure) than it does in the shadow areas (where if a brighter part of the subject moves across a darker area say an arm across a dress the ambient exposure will fill up the buckets with more photons and bam some extra ghosting blur) but the net result is some movement blur smudging what was a previously sharp flash exposure.

I know i'm right on this, In summary second curtain sync WILL give you a sharper subject than first curtain for long exposures. If the model stays very still then the difference might not be too noticeable and also for shorter exposures first curtain will still be fine like in the 1/4 second exposures i have there i agree first or second probably won't see a difference. But for 5 seconds there is going to always be a degree of involuntary movement which is enough to blur the fringes of detail.

Just because your say I'm wrong doesn't make it so ;) :D
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 09:19:38 PM by wickidwombat »
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privatebydesign

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Re: PocketWizard, Yongnuo, or Phottix?
« Reply #50 on: October 31, 2013, 10:07:34 PM »
Show me.

Show me the "deal breaker" deficiency of not having remote second curtain sync, and take a guess (it is a 50 50 chance) is this first or second curtain, are they rotating clockwise or anticlockwise? I know and I can't tell the difference between first curtain and clockwise or second curtain and anticlockwise.


I am not arguing that there is never a difference, as I said above for tail lights going away second curtain works better (but headlights coming to you first curtain works better) but the vast majority of the time there is no detectable difference unless you know the direction of travel of the subject if there is any.

P.S. Your simplistic bucket filled pixels is overlooking the fact that photons are photons, it doesn't matter to the total exposure of the pixel if the photons come from the flash or the ambient, or in which order they come, it is just a total number of photons to achieve the level of charge, and susiquently exposure, for each individual pixel.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2013, 09:13:57 AM by privatebydesign »
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StudentOfLight

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Re: PocketWizard, Yongnuo, or Phottix?
« Reply #51 on: November 03, 2013, 06:24:05 AM »
There is a small difference in certain situations even on static objects. I remember shooting interior shots in a kitchen and out of interest I shot with conventional and rear-curtain sync and in that situation there was more contrast on some of the shiny objects in the scene.

The only way I could explain it to myself was that the 1st curtain flash continued re-reflecting in the scene on various objects and so exposure was built up more on some shiny surfaces. Surprisingly it was not all surfaces or even all shiny surfaces. So I believe factors like object and lighting orientation can play a role in small shooting areas. In large open areas the light will obviously just disperse. Anyway, my point is that while it is possible to get better contrast with 2nd curtain, improved contrast is not guaranteed.

If there is motion in your shot then obviously rear curtain will lock final moment of your exposure and 1st curtain locks initial moment of exposure.
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Re: PocketWizard, Yongnuo, or Phottix?
« Reply #51 on: November 03, 2013, 06:24:05 AM »


privatebydesign

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Re: PocketWizard, Yongnuo, or Phottix?
« Reply #53 on: November 03, 2013, 08:42:31 AM »
Surapon,

I think most of us understand that part.

My specific challenge is can anybody tell the difference if they don't know what the direction of travel is, if there is any travel, and can anybody differentiate first and second curtain flash if there is no movement? My assertion is no, you can't. Others seem to say there is a difference but nobody can post two images demonstrating that difference.

As nobody can so far demonstrate this difference my assertion still follows that Canon remote flash systems not having second curtain sync is not a "deal breaker", and as any possible differences are so small, even advocates can't post any examples, they are not of any consequence.

Surapon, look at the image I posted, did I use first or second curtain sync, are they rotating clockwise or anticlockwise? What is the difference?
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ScottyP

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Re: PocketWizard, Yongnuo, or Phottix?
« Reply #54 on: November 03, 2013, 09:03:07 AM »
If things were reversed (Canon had 2nd curtain, and the competition did not) would those Canon owners proclaiming its irrelevance so vigorously be doing so?  I do not know, but my guess is "no".  ???

I don't have them yet (back ordered) but at $319 (Adorama eBay sale) my new Phottix Mitros Plus units would have to have something dreadfully wrong with them, and not a collection of tiny quibbles, to make me think I should have gotten the 600 rt's instead, given the added features, and the lower price, and the really very good Phottix name.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 09:22:29 AM by ScottyP »
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surapon

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Re: PocketWizard, Yongnuo, or Phottix?
« Reply #55 on: November 03, 2013, 09:25:44 AM »
Surapon,

I think most of us understand that part.

My specific challenge is can anybody tell the difference if they don't know what the direction of travel is, if there is any travel, and can anybody differentiate first and second curtain flash if there is no movement? My assertion is no, you can't. Others seem to say there is a difference but nobody can post two images demonstrating that difference.

As nobody can so far demonstrate this difference my assertion still follows that Canon remote flash systems not having second curtain sync is not a "deal breaker", and as any possible differences are so small, even advocates can't post any examples, they are not of any consequence.

Surapon, look at the image I posted, did I use first or second curtain sync, are they rotating clockwise or anticlockwise? What is the difference?


Thank you, Sir Dear Mr. privatebydesign.
Sorry, I never use Second Curtain Flash Sync.  in my  Job ( Just 2-3 Time In my Photography Class that I went to Learn). Yes From your Beautiful Photo, Let Me see the Advantage of this System with the Imaginative  Technique ( Rotation)  for the best special Effect that Regular flash  might not do the same.
Thanks, I have learn some thing New to day , Both from  You and from all of Our CR. Friends.
Have a great Sunday, Sir.
Surapon
« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 09:28:23 AM by surapon »

privatebydesign

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Re: PocketWizard, Yongnuo, or Phottix?
« Reply #56 on: November 03, 2013, 09:31:43 AM »
If things were reversed (Canon had 2nd curtain, and the competition did not) would those Canon owners protesting its irrelevance here be doing so?  I do not know, but my guess is "no".  ???

What is the point of that comment? Can you illustrate the difference?

I have been a frequent supporter and happy owner of Yongnuo gear. I very strongly considered the Phottix Odin system before getting the Canon RT system. My main deciding factor was I wanted on camera flash and remote radio control, something you couldn't do with the Odin system (without a clunky workaround) until the release of the nearly unavailable and not cheap Mitros+. I wanted real world functionality the Odin system did not have, how is that being a Canon zealot? I also wanted five group functionality not three as with the Odin system, another real world identifiable function, not a "feature" that nobody can actually illustrate! Now the remote zoom functionality of the Odin system is a useful and desirable feature, I would like Canon to be able to do that, it is a feature with demonstrable use that actually makes a difference to images.

So often people who don't know better and don't have the experience are sold features as "deal breakers", well if you can't illustrate that deal breaking functionality am I wrong to point out that it probably isn't a deal breaker?
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Lichtgestalt

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Re: PocketWizard, Yongnuo, or Phottix?
« Reply #57 on: November 03, 2013, 10:05:25 AM »
the YN-622C get a great addition soon.
a new YN-622C TX transmitter with LCD.

from what i read its hard to justifie the price of the odin then.

make no mistake i like the odin but the 622C are great too and a real bargain.
with the enhanced 622C TX controller they get even better.

this image shows the N (nikon) version:



features known so far

USB port for firmware updates
3 groups Mix TTL and Manual groups
1/3rd stop power and FEC adjustment
Remote flash zoom in 3 groups
2nd Curtain Sync, HSS, SuperSync
AF Assist Light
Remote Shutter Release function
Battery level indicator
PC Sync Port
Improved stability and transmission speed (especially for SB-800 user)
SuperSync manual timing adjustment (great for studio strobes)

http://flashhavoc.com/new-yn-622-tx-has-manual-supersync-timing-adjustment/
« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 10:31:53 AM by Lichtgestalt »

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Re: PocketWizard, Yongnuo, or Phottix?
« Reply #57 on: November 03, 2013, 10:05:25 AM »

jonathan7007

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Re: PocketWizard, Yongnuo, or Phottix?
« Reply #58 on: November 03, 2013, 03:08:25 PM »
Couldn't find a Mitros+ "sale" on eBay in or outside the Adorama [virtual]store. Too bad to miss that unless someone knows a link that gets right to the relevant page(?) I would have probably bought at least one. I use several Phottix Odins and one StratoII and having one that can act as controller is appealing.

Please let us know -- anyone that again sees the Mitros+ units on sale.

LostArk

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Re: PocketWizard, Yongnuo, or Phottix?
« Reply #59 on: November 03, 2013, 03:32:19 PM »
PocketWizard ControlTL radios are ├╝ber alles. Even if you own 600EX flashes, the AC3 zone controller makes it faster and easier to adjust multiple flash groups (even mixing TTL and manual groups!) than using the Canon menus. I wouldn't stop using PW's even if someone gave me a 5D3 and a bunch of 600EX's. Another exclusive feature of PocketWizards are their compatibility with various Sekonic light meters - you can even adjust flash power from the light meter itself (L-478). No other radio triggers offer the functionality, versatility, and performance of PocketWizard. No other triggers make accomplishing anything with off camera flash truly effortless. In my opinion, all other triggers are ghetto jury rigs.

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Re: PocketWizard, Yongnuo, or Phottix?
« Reply #59 on: November 03, 2013, 03:32:19 PM »