December 17, 2014, 09:50:47 PM

Author Topic: EOS 7D Mark II Spec List Surfaces [CR1]  (Read 42405 times)

Lee Jay

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Spec List Surfaces [CR1]
« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2013, 01:36:03 PM »
"Very good ISO performance"

Ahhh. Now I can rest easy  :)

Did they also say: "no more noisy blues skies at base ISO"?

There's noise in the light itself.  It's impossible to have a noise-free image. 

Logical fallacy.

Huh?

SNR = sqrt (photons collected).  To make SNR infinity you have to make photons collected infinity.

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Spec List Surfaces [CR1]
« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2013, 01:36:03 PM »

Lee Jay

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Spec List Surfaces [CR1]
« Reply #31 on: October 27, 2013, 01:36:50 PM »
The noise in the 7D  reminds me of the classic Panasonic all-in-one super zooms. But yeah, terrible blue channel noise at ISO 100. I'd much rather see them focus on low ISO dynamic range and noise than ISO 64000 jpeg noise.  Any addition of megapixels to the 1.6x sensor means I won't be picking one up. 18 is already too many.

Why?  More pixels = less noise and more detail.

Botts

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Spec List Surfaces [CR1]
« Reply #32 on: October 27, 2013, 01:40:19 PM »
The noise in the 7D  reminds me of the classic Panasonic all-in-one super zooms. But yeah, terrible blue channel noise at ISO 100. I'd much rather see them focus on low ISO dynamic range and noise than ISO 64000 jpeg noise.  Any addition of megapixels to the 1.6x sensor means I won't be picking one up. 18 is already too many.

Why?  More pixels = less noise and more detail.

There is a school of thought, somewhat based in science, that bigger pixels equal less noise and/or higher sensitivity.

There are engineering realities which can nullify, mitigate, or amplify the above however.
6D, Sigma 35/1.4, 40STM, 50/1.4, 70-200/4 IS, 430ex II
T2i, 17-55/2.8 IS, 270ex

Pi

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Spec List Surfaces [CR1]
« Reply #33 on: October 27, 2013, 01:43:44 PM »
"Very good ISO performance"

Ahhh. Now I can rest easy  :)

Did they also say: "no more noisy blues skies at base ISO"?

There's noise in the light itself.  It's impossible to have a noise-free image.  With the capture of lots of light and the application of noise reduction in software, it's possible to have the appearance of noise-free images, but that's all.

Of course, there is noise in the image as well but you know well what I meant. The blue channel of the 7D is much noisier than the signal itself, and much noisier than on any Nikon.

If you have to be picky, there is no such thing as a noise-free image of the physical object but there is such thing (theoretically) as noise free way to capture what hits the sensor, at least photosite by photosite; and then there is no theoretical and possibly a practical limit how close you can get.

Pi

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Spec List Surfaces [CR1]
« Reply #34 on: October 27, 2013, 01:46:54 PM »
There is a school of thought, somewhat based in science, that bigger pixels equal less noise and/or higher sensitivity.
Did you mean to post this to this thread: http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=17775.msg328453#msg328453? ;)

MichaelHodges

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Spec List Surfaces [CR1]
« Reply #35 on: October 27, 2013, 01:47:47 PM »
"Very good ISO performance"

Ahhh. Now I can rest easy  :)

Did they also say: "no more noisy blues skies at base ISO"?

There's noise in the light itself.  It's impossible to have a noise-free image. 

Logical fallacy.

Huh?

SNR = sqrt (photons collected).  To make SNR infinity you have to make photons collected infinity.

You dismissed his concern about the 7D's noise with a logical fallacy.

Lee Jay

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Spec List Surfaces [CR1]
« Reply #36 on: October 27, 2013, 01:56:02 PM »
There is a school of thought, somewhat based in science, that bigger pixels equal less noise and/or higher sensitivity.

That school of thought it wrong in all but exceptionally photon-starved situations (ISOs in the 6 and 7 digits).

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Spec List Surfaces [CR1]
« Reply #36 on: October 27, 2013, 01:56:02 PM »

Lee Jay

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Spec List Surfaces [CR1]
« Reply #37 on: October 27, 2013, 01:56:44 PM »
"Very good ISO performance"

Ahhh. Now I can rest easy  :)

Did they also say: "no more noisy blues skies at base ISO"?

There's noise in the light itself.  It's impossible to have a noise-free image. 

Logical fallacy.

Huh?

SNR = sqrt (photons collected).  To make SNR infinity you have to make photons collected infinity.

You dismissed his concern about the 7D's noise with a logical fallacy.

The 7D's sky noise is present in every camera of every size to varying degrees.

Pi

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Spec List Surfaces [CR1]
« Reply #38 on: October 27, 2013, 02:02:19 PM »
The 7D's sky noise is present in every camera of every size to varying degrees.

Those degrees vary quite a lot from camera to camera, which was the point of my remark, and I am sure that you know that.

MichaelHodges

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Spec List Surfaces [CR1]
« Reply #39 on: October 27, 2013, 02:11:53 PM »
"Very good ISO performance"

Ahhh. Now I can rest easy  :)

Did they also say: "no more noisy blues skies at base ISO"?

There's noise in the light itself.  It's impossible to have a noise-free image. 

Logical fallacy.

Huh?

SNR = sqrt (photons collected).  To make SNR infinity you have to make photons collected infinity.

You dismissed his concern about the 7D's noise with a logical fallacy.

The 7D's sky noise is present in every camera of every size to varying degrees.

Let's just cut the logical fallacies and address the poster's 7D noise concerns. Personally, as a 7D owner, I agree with him that the noise in blue skies at low ISO is unacceptable for a DSLR in this range. The only true upgrade path at this time to remedy such issues seems to be full frame.

Lee Jay

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Spec List Surfaces [CR1]
« Reply #40 on: October 27, 2013, 02:12:04 PM »
The 7D's sky noise is present in every camera of every size to varying degrees.

Those degrees vary quite a lot from camera to camera, which was the point of my remark, and I am sure that you know that.

I have a T2i (basically the same sensor as the 7D) and I don't find the sky noise to be a problem compared to other cameras I have including my 5D.

WPJ

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Spec List Surfaces [CR1]
« Reply #41 on: October 27, 2013, 02:22:43 PM »
What I wonder as on sensors is this new Nokia 1020 phone camera, its 41mp.  And the sensor size is small I can't find out how small.  I wonder on how good it is my guess it's about 1/8th the size of an aps-c if it was a amazing sensor and they made it aps-c size it would be like 328mp..wowzers...only if.


traveller

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Spec List Surfaces [CR1]
« Reply #42 on: October 27, 2013, 02:29:34 PM »
EVFs are more expensive than OVFs, if the EVF is decent.

I have to disagree with you here, it's not just the cost of the pentaprism, you have to factor in the whole mirror mechanism as well as the seperate af senor and its submirror and the light meter; none of these are required for mirrorless/EVF designs.

(lens design freedom) This isn't an advantage of an EVF, it's an advantage of removing the mirror box, and only if your entire lens system changes.

As I stated previously, using an EVF allows you to remove the mirror, which in turn allows lens designers to use this space for lens elements, especially when the EF mount is used for a crop frame sensor -there is no need to remove the mirror box entirely. Early ultra wide angle SLR lenses require the use of mirror lock-up and external finders.

(shooting information, electronic focusing aids) I consider that a disadvantage, as it's distracting.  I turn it all off on my EVF cameras.  The only advantage is for manual focus situations.

Others might find the information useful, you're not their only customer, and as you state, you can turn it off. I find manually focussing fast lenses difficult with modern viewfinders and autofocus isn't always reliable at large apertures (and changing focussing screens is a PITA).

Zero power draw (is a "Con") as well.

Fair comment, but I don't think it's a deal breaker. Battery technology moves on.

Since (cheaper to produce) is an invalid reason, I don't see why they'd bother to make everything else worse.

So cheaper to produce to isn't a valid reason? For a mass market producer, I would say it was the most valid of reasons. I'm not saying that there will not be a market for traditional DSLR technology, just that the mass market will no longer be willing to pay the price premium.

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Spec List Surfaces [CR1]
« Reply #42 on: October 27, 2013, 02:29:34 PM »

jbooba

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Spec List Surfaces [CR1]
« Reply #43 on: October 27, 2013, 02:32:07 PM »
"Innovative video features"

lol yeah maybe 2 years later with ML hacks.

unless its 4K its DOA.

JB

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Spec List Surfaces [CR1]
« Reply #44 on: October 27, 2013, 02:33:29 PM »
The 7D's sky noise is present in every camera of every size to varying degrees.

Those degrees vary quite a lot from camera to camera, which was the point of my remark, and I am sure that you know that.

I have a T2i (basically the same sensor as the 7D) and I don't find the sky noise to be a problem compared to other cameras I have including my 5D.

yeah.. but you are not shooting for NatGeo.....   ;)
 

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Re: EOS 7D Mark II Spec List Surfaces [CR1]
« Reply #44 on: October 27, 2013, 02:33:29 PM »