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Author Topic: Canon 60D v. Nikon D7000  (Read 80993 times)

Osiris30

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Re: Canon 60D v. Nikon D7000
« Reply #90 on: September 30, 2010, 10:51:24 AM »
Not necessarily NR.  Especially if light sensitivity is improved... it could be the AA filter they are talking about as the 550D and 7D could moire sometimes.. I haven't seen any sharpness hit (well nothing meaningful that's for sure.. all 18mp sensors are a bit 'mushy' in comparison to older 10mp sensors).

Osiris


unexposure ... so basically, Canon's applying even more noise reduction on the sensor ... not unexpected, but still a little disappointing.  I'm still waiting for them to turn that corner.  that being said, it also sounds like a pixel-peeping thing ... probably won't bother 90% of users

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Re: Canon 60D v. Nikon D7000
« Reply #90 on: September 30, 2010, 10:51:24 AM »

CameraAddict

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Re: Canon 60D v. Nikon D7000
« Reply #91 on: September 30, 2010, 09:54:52 PM »
Have you had a chance to play with high-iso on the 60D... I'm starting to really believe the rumours of a tweaked sensor.  I was playing around at 6400 tonight and my mind is literally blown out the back of my skull. 

Either my 60D is the 'golden copy' or Canon really did a few little things no one noticed to their core tech.  The AF has been flawless some 4000 shots in now... I can count AF misses on one hand regardless of lens (even the troublesome 50 1.8).. well maybe two hands, but really some of them are most likely my fault for getting sloppy. 


LOL, if they tweaked the sensor they'd be telling you, that's for sure.  They wouldn't hide such a thing.  It would be a marketing ++++.  I don't know what camera you came from, but your results DON'T mirror those of Camera Labs, in their comparison of high iso on the 50D and 60D.  They found that jpg was better on the 60D because the in-camera jpg processing increased sharpness and contrast, and probably did some noise reduction.

However, when raw shots were taken and processed in the same way, the two cameras were pretty equal. 

Osiris30

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Re: Canon 60D v. Nikon D7000
« Reply #92 on: September 30, 2010, 10:32:55 PM »
Have you had a chance to play with high-iso on the 60D... I'm starting to really believe the rumours of a tweaked sensor.  I was playing around at 6400 tonight and my mind is literally blown out the back of my skull. 

Either my 60D is the 'golden copy' or Canon really did a few little things no one noticed to their core tech.  The AF has been flawless some 4000 shots in now... I can count AF misses on one hand regardless of lens (even the troublesome 50 1.8).. well maybe two hands, but really some of them are most likely my fault for getting sloppy. 


LOL, if they tweaked the sensor they'd be telling you, that's for sure.  They wouldn't hide such a thing.  It would be a marketing ++++.  I don't know what camera you came from, but your results DON'T mirror those of Camera Labs, in their comparison of high iso on the 50D and 60D.  They found that jpg was better on the 60D because the in-camera jpg processing increased sharpness and contrast, and probably did some noise reduction.

However, when raw shots were taken and processed in the same way, the two cameras were pretty equal.

CameraAddict,

I'm going to be honest, based on their test I couldn't tell much of anything the samples were tiny.  I can tell you my iso 6400 is definitely usable and then some.  I'm not talking luminance noise, but chroma performance.  None of that ugly high-iso color weirdness (i.e. shifting, washed out, etc.).  There have been things that have been said by Canon people as well regarding the sensor. 

Finally, if they did, they might not want to scream it too loudly.. it would be bad for the 7D..

I'm looking to see a few more places run raws and do comparisons with some graphs and charts that I can look at.. ya it's measurbating, but we're talking minor differences really.

Osiris

kmyers1us

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Re: Canon 60D v. Nikon D7000
« Reply #93 on: October 03, 2010, 12:53:42 PM »
Only you can decide this. It depends on what you want out of a camera.

But, you should definitely NOT decide solely on the basis of one or two minor features on the latest camera models. When you buy an SLR, you are buying into a complete system and you need to consider everything: lenses, flash, accessories, etc., but most especially the lenses. Even if you are just starting out with a single lens, you will eventually want to add to that collection. (And surreptitiously sneak it into the house when your spouse isn't looking.  ;)) Traditionally, Canon has held a slight price advantage over Nikon in lenses, but there are plenty of exceptions.

Technology is changing rapidly and camera bodies seem to be running on about a two-year cycle these days, so eventually you will replace the body itself but you won't want to have to start all over again with a lens system.

Read reviews as they come out and take EVERYTHING you read on this site with a grain of salt. No one here is objective and many of the discussions center around esoteric technical points that don't have much relevance to the average person. This site has a comment history, that will enable you to see what axe the commenter has to grind. There are also some very knowledgeable people contributing to this forum (folks that have far more technological knowledge than I do or care to have). You can identify them from the comment history as well.

Remember that anything you read here about the 60D is based on a camera that hasn't even been released. If you care about the technical details, watch sites like dpreview.com. In my opinion they do a very good job. Others may disagree. You can read the photography press as well, although you'll find that they tend to be advocates, rather than critics (don't want to offend the advertisers, you know.) Still their reviews are generally reasonable.

Ultimately, the camera is just a tool and you'll be able to take great pictures with either one.

I agree that you need to take the total system into consideration.
I am a newcomer to Canon with my new 7d. I had an Olympus system
and stopped investing in it NOT because of the deficiencies in their new E-5,
but because they have essentially halted production on the lens system.

It's all about the lenses and Canon shines here above all others. Also
I like the fact that Canon more accurately describes their lenses. In
particular I am referring to weather sealing. Its well stated here but
in Nikon its poorly documented.

Also I agree that the camera is a tool but the Photographer is the
success, BUT you must have the tools you need to accomplish your
personal goals. Take all things into consideration.

Edwin Herdman

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Re: Canon 60D v. Nikon D7000
« Reply #94 on: October 03, 2010, 07:01:42 PM »
Finally, if they did, they might not want to scream it too loudly.. it would be bad for the 7D..
Maybe, maybe not.  It may be the case that the sensor changes add up to nicer-looking JPEGs straight out of the camera, but 7D images are meant to be processed from RAW, so any hit to sharpness wouldn't be a good tradeoff.

Wholly speculation, but it could have been intended that the 7D is meant to be used with a more professional workflow in the case the user is really interested in IQ.

I think it's more likely that the 60D is simply a newer product, of course.

jouster

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Re: Canon 60D v. Nikon D7000
« Reply #95 on: October 05, 2010, 07:59:55 AM »
This is an interesting post with a lot of varying opinions, but I'd say you should really try both camera's hands on before making a choice. If you purely go by spec's the new Nikon might seem like the clear winner, but feature don't always make for a great product.

I admit I was a bit disappointed with the announced spec's of the 60D, but I have invested in canon for a few years now (meaning I have lenses and such) so I thought I'd give the 60D a try. I recieved it this Wednesday and I have to say it's a really nice camera, it's solidly built even though it's not like my 7D it's not a Rebel either. The Camera is very well balanced even with heavy lenses, and feels really good in hand. It's also a very accurate camera, I shot a wedding with it yesterday and must say I'm really impressed with the way it handled and the pictures I got even in lowlight. It seems like Canon tweaked the AF system from the 40D and 50D I've shot both and the 60D is a lot better, it's actually pretty close to the 7D, and maybe a little brighter.

Anyway as I said earlier the only real way to know which one is right for you is to go play with them both, and what ever you decide you'll have a great camera and a real upgrade from your S3

I'm curious about your decision to buy a 60D when you already own a 7D. What was the reason? Was it simply to have a backup body? Or a second body to make switching between lenses easy?

Please note that I'm not being critical; just curious. The 7D and 60D seem very similar to me. (I hope to have a nice second body myself at some point, but if the CFO approves it will be a a 5D3....if they ever exist).

urkel

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Re: Canon 60D v. Nikon D7000
« Reply #96 on: October 06, 2010, 07:56:13 PM »
After a week with a 60D of my own then here's some quick impressions. (Before the Canon defense force jumps on me, I've waited a year for this camera and currently own it.

Pro:
+ Pictures look just as good as the 7D
+ ISO Limiter (A major problem I've had w/7D is how auto ISO blows out photos)
+ Toy Camera filter. Most other Toy Camera filters look cheesy but I love the way this one looks for some reason. I have to learn how to replicate this in Aperture

Con:
- MicroAdjustments. This is a big deal and a serious omission that makes this a pure consumer cam
- Button lock for mode wheel. This would be fine if there were 4 modes. But with all the consumer options there's a dozen stops which makes this obnoxious
- Video Mode location. It's Waaaay at the end of the dial which makes quick vids very tough
- 9 Focus Points. I don't shoot wild birds but I do photograph kids and my baby. 9 points with a 1.4 lens simply gets in the way of a great photo.

Neutral
- Plastic Shell. It feels much better than 550D but it still feels cheap compared to 7D
- Creative Filters. I like the Toy Camera but its a novelty and the others were pretty disappointing.
- Articulating Screen. This was a major selling point and I find myself not caring as much. I'm glad it's there but it's not nearly the dealbreaker I thought it would be.
- Price. I thought saving $400 over the 7D would be great but the more I use this the more I feel the $400 is worth it.

Overall my impression is that this is a fantastic upgrade for Rebel users and beginners, but far too limiting for those who aspire to do more. Due to the lack of essential "pro" features then I wouldnt even recommend this as a 2nd body. As much as I wanted to love the 60D then I'm reluctantly going to move on to the 7D or D7000. They're both fantastic cameras but both also will cost me more than I budgeted so hopefully I make the right decision in the next 2 weeks.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 07:58:42 PM by urkel »

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Re: Canon 60D v. Nikon D7000
« Reply #96 on: October 06, 2010, 07:56:13 PM »

unfocused

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Re: Canon 60D v. Nikon D7000
« Reply #97 on: October 06, 2010, 10:42:00 PM »
Quote
As much as I wanted to love the 60D then I'm reluctantly going to move on to the 7D or D7000.

Interesting. This could be my own personal bias as a 7D owner, but it seems like there are very few people on this forum who actually own a 7D that have any buyer's remorse or "camera envy." Not thinking of people who might want to eventually upgrade to full frame, but rather people who own the 7D and, now a year later, are seeing other models released by Canon, Nikon and others.

I had a lot of qualms when I bought the 7D. (Was I spending too much? Would a 60D come out that had everything the 7D had for less? Would it, in short, meet or exceed my expectations?) Of course most people, myself included, are loathe to admit they made a buying mistake, but I have to say that I really have no regrets. In fact, I'm not even sure I would switch to full frame if given the choice.

urkel

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Re: Canon 60D v. Nikon D7000
« Reply #98 on: October 07, 2010, 12:57:33 AM »


I had a lot of qualms when I bought the 7D. (Was I spending too much? Would a 60D come out that had everything the 7D had for less? Would it, in short, meet or exceed my expectations?)
Its funny because when I decided NOT to buy a 7D for myself last year. At the time all I needed was an updated 50D and a 7D was overkill. But as it turned out, I got better with my photography and now a 7D/D7000 fits my needs pretty well.

Of course most people, myself included, are loathe to admit they made a buying mistake, but I have to say that I really have no regrets. In fact, I'm not even sure I would switch to full frame if given the choice.
Thats a good point. What makes the 7D so much different than the 60D is that the 7D is a perfect backup/2nd camera for pros, but the 60D lacks key features that make it too "low end" for professional work. So even though the initial cost of the 7D is higher than the 60D, in the end then it's probably a better investment.

Rocky

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Re: Canon 60D v. Nikon D7000
« Reply #99 on: October 07, 2010, 01:07:52 PM »

Overall my impression is that this is a fantastic upgrade for Rebel users and beginners, but far too limiting for those who aspire to do more. Due to the lack of essential "pro" features then I wouldnt even recommend this as a 2nd body. As much as I wanted to love the 60D then I'm reluctantly going to move on to the 7D or D7000. They're both fantastic cameras but both also will cost me more than I budgeted so hopefully I make the right decision in the next 2 weeks.

very nice summary. I am still torn between the 60D and the 7D. can you tell me what are the "por feature" that is missing on the 60D??  I know that 7D has the micro focus adjustment, more auto focus points with grouping, and the metal body that the 60D lacks. On the other hand, I like the tilt screen of the 60D. I do not care about any video related feature. Thanks for the advice in advance.

neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon 60D v. Nikon D7000
« Reply #100 on: October 07, 2010, 05:21:07 PM »
Can you tell me what are the "pro feature" that is missing on the 60D??

This would be my list of 'pro' features that the 7D has and the 60D lacks (but note that I am not a pro!):

  • AF microadjustment
  • Lifespan of 50,000 more shutter actuations
  • 8 fps shooting speed
  • CF card (faster data transfers than SD)
  • PC sync socket (flash control)
  • Dual-axis electronic level (the 60D has only horizontal) - ok, I'm kidding on that one being a 'pro' feature  :P 
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unexposure

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Re: Canon 60D v. Nikon D7000
« Reply #101 on: October 07, 2010, 06:03:10 PM »
Can you tell me what are the "pro feature" that is missing on the 60D??

This would be my list of 'pro' features that the 7D has and the 60D lacks (but note that I am not a pro!):

  • AF microadjustment
  • Lifespan of 50,000 more shutter actuations
  • 8 fps shooting speed
  • CF card (faster data transfers than SD)
  • PC sync socket (flash control)
  • Dual-axis electronic level (the 60D has only horizontal) - ok, I'm kidding on that one being a 'pro' feature  :P 
I would't really agree on that...

- AF Microadjustment is commonly "abused" to do some minor corrections to misbehaving lenses. "Pros" should use this in "emergency"-cases when for example the body was dropped when beeing on location and the only possibility to get the job done is by "fixing" it directly. For all other cases "Pros" can just go and make use of CPS.
- Lifespan might be a "Pro"-Feature. I'm on your side at this point.
- 8 FPS is not what I would consider a "pro feature". Neither 1ds (I, II, III) nor 5d (I, II) deliver such an amount of fps - it's just the placement for what the camera is made for. None of the "Pros" I know who do studiostuff or wedding which keep a 7d as backup-body bought it for the high fps-count.
- CF-Card is argueable too. Some photokina presented sd-cards reach pretty much the same speed as common high-quality cf-cards. The bottleneck on here is the controller - and I must admit, I have no clue what the limit of 60d's controller is. Considering that the cam allows HD-Video and similar to 7D 50fps@720p, I would guess, that canon did a major improvement to sd-controllers of 550D and 60D to make them able to write the data.
- PC-Sync: Here I'm totally with you. I don't really get, why they did remove it. Might be, because of the more and more common use of radio-triggers but this defenatly is a feature that's missing compared to a "Pro-Body".
- Electronic Level is more some kind like "nice to have" but I don't think any "pro" in architecture oder landscape or whatsoever would give a greater trust in the build-in-level over the level on his tripods-head. ;-)

In Opposite what makes the 60d more "pro" than 7D is all about video-related stuff.
- Manual Gain Control. This is - for serious filmers one of the biggest problems with 7d and a big plus for 60d. Some of the more serious filmers consider the 5d mkII (which has the manual-feature) as "pretty hard to handle" in case of depth of field-situations due to the sensor-size. So 7d came in pretty welcome but without the other "pro feature" that is now brougt by 60d
- Articulating Screen is nothing seriosly "pro" when it comes to video in first case, since using some kind of display-loope or even better a bigger live-screen is more common in "pro-video". But the main advantage of dslr vs. 35mm film or "professional" digital-gear is the size of the cameras. And at this point, I guess, this might be very welcome by some "video-pros", when it comes to situations where you just can't handle your rig very well (eg inside a car).

MintMark

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Re: Canon 60D v. Nikon D7000
« Reply #102 on: October 09, 2010, 05:42:32 PM »

  • Lifespan of 50,000 more shutter actuations

I don't know where your figure came from, but a quick web search shows respectable review sites (like The Digital Picture and Imaging Resource) quoting the 60D shutter lifetime as 100000 cycles, the same as the 50D.

Perhaps you have a reference for this?

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Re: Canon 60D v. Nikon D7000
« Reply #102 on: October 09, 2010, 05:42:32 PM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon 60D v. Nikon D7000
« Reply #103 on: October 09, 2010, 06:38:13 PM »

  • Lifespan of 50,000 more shutter actuations

I don't know where your figure came from, but a quick web search shows respectable review sites (like The Digital Picture and Imaging Resource) quoting the 60D shutter lifetime as 100000 cycles, the same as the 50D.

Perhaps you have a reference for this?

I wasn't comparing the 60D to the 50D, but to the 7D:

This would be my list of 'pro' features that the 7D has and the 60D lacks...

You can go to either of the respectable review sites you mention and see that the shutter lifespan of the 7D is rated at 150,000 actuations, which is 50,000 more shutter actuations than the 60D.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2010, 06:46:56 PM by neuroanatomist »
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MintMark

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Re: Canon 60D v. Nikon D7000
« Reply #104 on: October 10, 2010, 02:42:47 AM »
You can go to either of the respectable review sites you mention and see that the shutter lifespan of the 7D is rated at 150,000 actuations, which is 50,000 more shutter actuations than the 60D.

I do apologise. I completely mis-understood your point. That should teach me to post on the internet last thing at night after a long day.

Sorry for disturbing the thread...

    Mark

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Re: Canon 60D v. Nikon D7000
« Reply #104 on: October 10, 2010, 02:42:47 AM »