October 26, 2014, 01:58:08 AM

Author Topic: Sony A7R on DXO - Highest full frame IQ ever  (Read 28139 times)

Pi

  • 1D Mark IV
  • ******
  • Posts: 937
    • View Profile
    • Math and Photography
Re: Sony A7R on DXO - Highest full frame IQ ever
« Reply #180 on: November 07, 2013, 07:28:18 AM »
How productive is it to just keep bashing Canon on a rumors forum?

I wonder how productive is to defend it? Where do I sign up?  :)

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Sony A7R on DXO - Highest full frame IQ ever
« Reply #180 on: November 07, 2013, 07:28:18 AM »

caruser

  • Rebel T5i
  • ****
  • Posts: 129
    • View Profile
Re: Sony A7R on DXO - Highest full frame IQ ever
« Reply #181 on: November 07, 2013, 08:05:04 AM »
And this raises a question.  If you really feel that Canon tries "to get away with absolutely the least they can for the most money they can", why in the world would you stick with Canon???
I'm not really the target of this, because I'm mostly happy with Canon, but let me say that in capitalism every corporation has to get away with the least they can for the most money they can because otherwise they could be sued by their shareholders. Unlike the customers, which can't sue them for not implementing easily done features. However Nikon, Sony and Canon are all corporations, so for me there's no big difference. I'm sure Nikon users are waiting for some feature that Canon products have just like we Canon shooters would like for example the zoomed histogram that even the entry-level Nikons sport. Anyhow, back to shooting with my quite nice 1DX, I've mostly stopped caring about it having less MP or DR than a D800, and even though I would prefer more MP, DR and less AA, I'm really like my Canon glass, the 135L, the 50L, etc :-)

sanj

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 1561
    • View Profile
Re: Sony A7R on DXO - Highest full frame IQ ever
« Reply #182 on: November 07, 2013, 08:46:13 AM »
And in the cinema world, believe me some pretty damn serious pros talk about stuff like DR all the time and they take it very seriously.
For the formats used in the cinema world, DR is very important and taken seriously.  So it is interesting that Canon has a significant presence in the cinema world, and in the video world generally.  For the past few years I've regularly seen videographers using Canon DSLRs and have yet to see one using Nikon or Sony.

+1

Cinematographers are concerned about DR, sure.  But just as they don't rely on a camera's autofocus to control where the camera is focused, they don't rely on the image capture medium to control the DR at capture. Rather, they control the DR of the scene by managing the lighting (floods, diffuser 'tents', grad NDs, etc.). 

Canon has Ron Howard, Nikon has.......Ashton Kutcher.  :P

Still photographers use the same methods to control DR as cinematographers. Of course.

zlatko

  • Canon 6D
  • *****
  • Posts: 351
    • View Profile
    • http://www.zlatkobatistich.com
Re: Sony A7R on DXO - Highest full frame IQ ever
« Reply #183 on: November 07, 2013, 11:03:49 AM »
"Nothing wrong with trying to make a big push to wake Canon up so we don't have to wait another decade to get such expanded possibilities ..." I don't see a big push to "wake" Canon up.  Instead I see people complaining about something that they could easily address by changing brands.  They claim DR is so important that they would choose a Sony sensor over a Canon sensor  "any day", and yet they keep using Canon.  So that "any day" apparently hasn't come yet.  I'm sure Canon is quite "awake", but they have to deal with diverse priorities and their own timetable for development.

why shouldn't we want them to up the time table? how the heck does it do anything positive for you for them to keep milking away the old sensor line? so why defending their sacred honor to the ends of the earth? they sure don't do that for you, they try to get away with absolutely the least they can for the most money they can.

You're showing two misconceptions here.  The first misconception is that bashing Canon on a rumors forum somehow pushes the company to "wake up" or "up the time table" for new products.  It doesn't.  Their investment in sensor research, development and production is huge and isn't going to be moved even slightly by anonymous complaints on a rumor site.

The second misconception is that "they try to get away with absolutely the least they can for the most money they can."  Well, Canon has a huge product line to disprove that notion.  It simply wouldn't exist in anything near its current form if they were trying to get away with absolutely the least for the most money.  They offer such a diverse line of products, some with 2nd or 3rd generation refinements, and some of them unmatched by any other manufacturer.  Their products (like the 1DX, 5D3, 600EX-RT and new wide angle primes) have shown outstanding responsiveness to the needs of many photographers, fulfilling many wishlists for improvements over predecessor models.  These creations don't just happen at the flick of a switch, but rather require very substantial investment, planning, effort, testing and risk.  A company trying to "get away with absolutely the least they can for the most money they can" would have no where near the acceptance in the professional market that Canon does, nor would it be preferred by some of the best and most demanding people in photography. 

And this raises a question.  If you really feel that Canon tries "to get away with absolutely the least they can for the most money they can", why in the world would you stick with Canon???  I mean if they do that, and provide deficient sensors, *when* do you decide to switch?  How productive is it to just keep bashing Canon on a rumors forum?  When do you decide that some other company is more properly aligned with your interests?

Sure they do, did you not hear the speech one of their reps gave at a show some years back? See how they played games with something as critical as MFA and removed it from the 60D so they could offer it as a 'new' feature again in the 70D (one of their reps got caught admitted they removed it so the future 70D could have a extra selling point), look at how they dribble out something as trivial to implement as AutoISO over a decade and did you see some of the user surveys they sent out where they were all but stating they were trying to figure out how locked in by lenses people felt and how much they could get away with dribbling out slowly.

Because even if a company is acting a bit too far IMO like that now doesn't mean they have to continue doing so or that they don't make good lneses and have a friendly UI.

You're looking for faults in everything they do, and finding it in the lack of ONE feature on a low-end model, the comments of some rep years ago, the wording of some user surveys, etc.  It seems that everywhere you look, you perceive some ill motivation toward customers.  With this eagerness to find faults, I predict that you'll never, ever be satisfied.  And despite all of these perceived faults, with which you paint a picture of a rather bad company, you still can't get motivated to switch brands!?

J.R.

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 1512
    • View Profile
Re: Sony A7R on DXO - Highest full frame IQ ever
« Reply #184 on: November 07, 2013, 11:17:02 AM »
"Nothing wrong with trying to make a big push to wake Canon up so we don't have to wait another decade to get such expanded possibilities ..." I don't see a big push to "wake" Canon up.  Instead I see people complaining about something that they could easily address by changing brands.  They claim DR is so important that they would choose a Sony sensor over a Canon sensor  "any day", and yet they keep using Canon.  So that "any day" apparently hasn't come yet.  I'm sure Canon is quite "awake", but they have to deal with diverse priorities and their own timetable for development.

why shouldn't we want them to up the time table? how the heck does it do anything positive for you for them to keep milking away the old sensor line? so why defending their sacred honor to the ends of the earth? they sure don't do that for you, they try to get away with absolutely the least they can for the most money they can.

You're showing two misconceptions here.  The first misconception is that bashing Canon on a rumors forum somehow pushes the company to "wake up" or "up the time table" for new products.  It doesn't.  Their investment in sensor research, development and production is huge and isn't going to be moved even slightly by anonymous complaints on a rumor site.

The second misconception is that "they try to get away with absolutely the least they can for the most money they can."  Well, Canon has a huge product line to disprove that notion.  It simply wouldn't exist in anything near its current form if they were trying to get away with absolutely the least for the most money.  They offer such a diverse line of products, some with 2nd or 3rd generation refinements, and some of them unmatched by any other manufacturer.  Their products (like the 1DX, 5D3, 600EX-RT and new wide angle primes) have shown outstanding responsiveness to the needs of many photographers, fulfilling many wishlists for improvements over predecessor models.  These creations don't just happen at the flick of a switch, but rather require very substantial investment, planning, effort, testing and risk.  A company trying to "get away with absolutely the least they can for the most money they can" would have no where near the acceptance in the professional market that Canon does, nor would it be preferred by some of the best and most demanding people in photography. 

And this raises a question.  If you really feel that Canon tries "to get away with absolutely the least they can for the most money they can", why in the world would you stick with Canon???  I mean if they do that, and provide deficient sensors, *when* do you decide to switch?  How productive is it to just keep bashing Canon on a rumors forum?  When do you decide that some other company is more properly aligned with your interests?

Sure they do, did you not hear the speech one of their reps gave at a show some years back? See how they played games with something as critical as MFA and removed it from the 60D so they could offer it as a 'new' feature again in the 70D (one of their reps got caught admitted they removed it so the future 70D could have a extra selling point), look at how they dribble out something as trivial to implement as AutoISO over a decade and did you see some of the user surveys they sent out where they were all but stating they were trying to figure out how locked in by lenses people felt and how much they could get away with dribbling out slowly.

Because even if a company is acting a bit too far IMO like that now doesn't mean they have to continue doing so or that they don't make good lneses and have a friendly UI.

You're looking for faults in everything they do, and finding it in the lack of ONE feature on a low-end model, the comments of some rep years ago, the wording of some user surveys, etc.  It seems that everywhere you look, you perceive some ill motivation toward customers.  With this eagerness to find faults, I predict that you'll never, ever be satisfied.  And despite all of these perceived faults, with which you paint a picture of a rather bad company, you still can't get motivated to switch brands!?

Almost every company does stupid stuff at various points of time. Look at Nikon who have screwed the buyers as well as dealers when they replaced the D600 with the D610.

I guess it may be time for someone to chime in with the "Canon screwed the FD lens users by changing to EF mount" rant ...
5D3, 6D, 600D, RX100
16-35L, 24-70L II, 70-200L II, 100-400L, 50L, 85L II, 135L, 24TSE, 40, 100 macro, 18-55 II, 55-250 II, 600RT x 4
I come here to learn something new, not to learn how bad my gear is - I know that already ;-)!

Skulker

  • Canon 6D
  • *****
  • Posts: 397
  • PP is no vice and as shot is no virtue
    • View Profile
Re: Sony A7R on DXO - Highest full frame IQ ever
« Reply #185 on: November 07, 2013, 02:24:46 PM »
How productive is it to just keep bashing Canon on a rumors forum?

I wonder how productive is to defend it? Where do I sign up?  :)

Well zlatko, some people seem to just like to do that.

Pi, I generaly find being reasonable is the most productive way to behave. Not many will be very impressed if you flip flop from one extreme to the other. Reality is not often extreme.
If you debate with a fool onlookers can find it VERY difficult to tell the difference.

LetTheRightLensIn

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 3937
    • View Profile
Re: Sony A7R on DXO - Highest full frame IQ ever
« Reply #186 on: November 07, 2013, 05:27:44 PM »
You're looking for faults in everything they do, and finding it in the lack of ONE feature on a low-end model, the comments of some rep years ago, the wording of some user surveys, etc.  It seems that everywhere you look, you perceive some ill motivation toward customers.  With this eagerness to find faults, I predict that you'll never, ever be satisfied.  And despite all of these perceived faults, with which you paint a picture of a rather bad company, you still can't get motivated to switch brands!?

There is good stuff about Canon too. I'd rather not have to switch. And as you say it takes time to get stuff like more DR out there, if people wait to complain about it until they are ready to switch next week, it's way too late. Maybe with all this stink and DxO reports and all they take note and the next 5D4/2D/1DsX or whatever round improves this stuff.

Anyway the point of this thread is simply that the Sony sensor in the A7R tests out VERY well AND it takes Canon lenses and it seems it works out well:

"The Alpha 7R has no problem with the Canon 24mm and 17mm TSE. The image remains sharp right into the corners and vignetting is the same as the EOS 5D a little at full adjustment."

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pf.nl%2F19555%2Fhands-on-sony-alpha-7r-metabones-adapter-eos-lenzen%2F


Wow that sounds pretty awesome to me. And NOT something to get all upset and defensive about as you all seemed to jump in here and become. In another forum, one guy was calling Canon users thinking of using Canon lenses on it traitors and accused them of making a deal with the Devil, I'm sure you will agree that at least that person is a fanboy.

It is interesting that they found it pretty sharp even at the edges so the recent Canon glass was designed for these higher MP cams.

Obviously it would be much nicer to have it all in one body and not have to have the high MP, high DR FF in a second (otherwise somewhat limited) body, but so far Canon refuses to invest in new sensor plants and they don't make that so we go with what we can. At least we have the ability now to not have to instantly full hog switch systems and we can use all the Canon lenses that we love and use this tie us over just a bit longer to give Canon just a bit more time to do something. So we now appear to have a good option to get high MP, high DR, low ISO shots within the overall Canon system in a sense, even the body itself isn't Canon branded.

I now plan to spend my money on this rather than a 7D2 next spring (barring some announcement for Canon that sounds better than this A7R option).

If the next big round from Canon has nothing for more DR and such then I will have to think about swapping sides unless the A7R is enough to let me give them just one more shot past that (although I'd probably have to keep my 5D3 and a lens or two for movies, which would be a drag and thus also why I hope Canon changes sensor fabs).
« Last Edit: November 07, 2013, 06:33:32 PM by LetTheRightLensIn »

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Sony A7R on DXO - Highest full frame IQ ever
« Reply #186 on: November 07, 2013, 05:27:44 PM »

Pi

  • 1D Mark IV
  • ******
  • Posts: 937
    • View Profile
    • Math and Photography
Re: Sony A7R on DXO - Highest full frame IQ ever
« Reply #187 on: November 07, 2013, 11:59:56 PM »
Pi, I generaly find being reasonable is the most productive way to behave. Not many will be very impressed if you flip flop from one extreme to the other. Reality is not often extreme.
Huh?

stringfellow1946

  • PowerShot G1 X II
  • ***
  • Posts: 46
    • View Profile
    • Chris Weston Photography
Re: Sony A7R on DXO - Highest full frame IQ ever
« Reply #188 on: November 08, 2013, 04:40:09 AM »
I think we should all begin to focus on the things we do agree on so as to avoid rehashing so many of the same topics and arguments time and again:

1. The Sony sensor (D800/e) has the most DR from ISO 100-800.
2. DR levels out and advantage is gone after ISO 800.
3. 5D3 sensor does better in higher ISOs.
4. More DR is useful (and nice to have) but not always/or even often necessary.
5. Each sensor has it's own advantages AS WELL as disadvantages neither of which should be ignored when when assessing IQ or level of advancement in technology.
6. Everyone has differing needs when it comes to photography which most of us in here cannot account for.

Things to avoid since they are so clearly untrue/baseless and continue to cause unnecessary debate due to their antagonistic nature:

1. Any blanket statements such as Nikon image quality "trounces" Canon's.
2. Pre-determining whether something is completely unuseful or not before it is in people's hands.
3. Making any other inferences about how good or bad the new bodies will be since again, they are not in people's hands yet.

+1, At long last the voice of common sense.
1DX, 1Dmk4, 1D2N, 8-15 f/4L, 16-35 f/2.8L, 24-70 f/2.8 II L, 24-105 f/4L, 70-200 f/2.8 is II L, 15 f/2.8 Fisheye, 35 f/1.4L, 50 f/2.5 macro, 85 f/1.8, 300 f/4 L.

Rienzphotoz

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 3323
  • Peace unto all ye Canon, Nikon & Sony shooters
    • View Profile
Re: Sony A7R on DXO - Highest full frame IQ ever
« Reply #189 on: November 29, 2013, 07:19:08 AM »
Watch from 0.50 to 1.10 mins  and from 15.25 mins ;D
Sony A7 vs. A7R Hands-on Review
Canon 5DMK3 70D | Nikon D610 | Sony a7 a6000 | RX100M3 | 16-35/2.8LII | 70-200/2.8LISII | 100/2.8LIS | 100-400LIS | 40/2.8 | 50/1.4 | 85/1.8 | 600EX-RTx2 | ST-E3-RT | 24/3.5 T-S | 10-18/4 OSS 16-50 | 24-70/4OSS | 55/1.8 | 55-210 OSS | 70-200/4 OSS | 28-300VR | HVL-F43M | GoPro Black 3+ & DJI Phantom

Rienzphotoz

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 3323
  • Peace unto all ye Canon, Nikon & Sony shooters
    • View Profile
Re: Sony A7R on DXO - Highest full frame IQ ever
« Reply #190 on: December 08, 2013, 12:56:25 PM »
Does any one know how to change focus points on Sony a7, (like how we choose from the 61 AF points on Canon 5D MK III)?
Canon 5DMK3 70D | Nikon D610 | Sony a7 a6000 | RX100M3 | 16-35/2.8LII | 70-200/2.8LISII | 100/2.8LIS | 100-400LIS | 40/2.8 | 50/1.4 | 85/1.8 | 600EX-RTx2 | ST-E3-RT | 24/3.5 T-S | 10-18/4 OSS 16-50 | 24-70/4OSS | 55/1.8 | 55-210 OSS | 70-200/4 OSS | 28-300VR | HVL-F43M | GoPro Black 3+ & DJI Phantom

Rienzphotoz

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 3323
  • Peace unto all ye Canon, Nikon & Sony shooters
    • View Profile
Re: Sony A7R on DXO - Highest full frame IQ ever
« Reply #191 on: December 08, 2013, 01:26:15 PM »
Does any one know how to change focus points on Sony a7, (like how we choose from the 61 AF points on Canon 5D MK III)?
OK, I figured out how to do it ... a bit long winded, but it works. In doing so I found that the sides of the images are horribly soft ... I guess it might be the weakness of the kit lens ... but the center is stunningly sharp.
For those who are like me searching how to change focus points:
Hit "Fn" button, choose "Focus Area" and select "Flexible Spot M" ... then you can use the Control Wheel on the back of the camera to select the focus point.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2013, 01:30:38 PM by Rienzphotoz »
Canon 5DMK3 70D | Nikon D610 | Sony a7 a6000 | RX100M3 | 16-35/2.8LII | 70-200/2.8LISII | 100/2.8LIS | 100-400LIS | 40/2.8 | 50/1.4 | 85/1.8 | 600EX-RTx2 | ST-E3-RT | 24/3.5 T-S | 10-18/4 OSS 16-50 | 24-70/4OSS | 55/1.8 | 55-210 OSS | 70-200/4 OSS | 28-300VR | HVL-F43M | GoPro Black 3+ & DJI Phantom

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Sony A7R on DXO - Highest full frame IQ ever
« Reply #191 on: December 08, 2013, 01:26:15 PM »