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Author Topic: 6D autofocus capabilites: let's bust some myths about it  (Read 57631 times)

CarlTN

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Re: 6D autofocus capabilites: let's bust some myths about it
« Reply #135 on: December 18, 2013, 03:10:26 AM »
On the flip side, with the -3 EV center point, you might get more keepers in low light with the 6D than anything else Canon sells (including the 1DX).  I've found its low-light focusing to be just plain spectacular.

How do you define 'low light'?  For example, the difference between shooting at -2 EV and-3 EV could mean 1/15 s, f/2.8, ISO 51200 vs. 102400.  Neither is very usable from an IQ standpoint.  What most people call 'low light' is generally substantially brighter than either spec.

I agree that "works well in low light" or similar phrases have a rather imprecise meaning. I thought that Canon's spec on the center point is rather more precise than that, center AF point sensitivity down to EV -3 (at 73ºF/23ºC, ISO 100), which for example would be an 8-min exposure at f/8 or 1-min at f/2.8. Perhaps familiarity with night photography might help envisioning what level of available light would call for such an exposure (considerations on what constitute an adequate exposure aside).

As a side note, I can report using live view AF in the 6D for night landscape shots of 16-min at f/8, ISO 100 (EV -4). AF is rather slow and requires judicious use when choosing your subject. I wouldn't use the viewfinder in those scenarios, as I've found it too dim and small. I haven't heard/read anything pointing out that other cameras wouldn't do as well as the 6D is these circumstances. But I've personally witnessed other photographers resorting to MF quicker than me in these situations (technique and preference may play a role as well).

How about a handheld shot indoors in a dark room at 300mm and f/5.6 (with the 70-300L), for .8 seconds at ISO 10,000?  Is that not low light?  If a 5D3 can autofocus in that amount of light, I'll go buy 10 of them tomorrow...

CarlTN

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Re: 6D autofocus capabilites: let's bust some myths about it
« Reply #136 on: December 18, 2013, 03:24:47 AM »
Hey Folks.
Afraid I have no usefull camera based info as I only have a lowly 7D and have never knowingly seen either a 5DIII or 6D in action.
How about you all agree to disagree on this point, I have seen what started as a valid positive post degenerate in to a mud slinging session. I value comments from all on this forum, everyone has something to offer that may help me improve my technique and get more from my hobby, everyone also has their own opinion and these are as different as can be, wouldn't the world be boring if we were all the same!

Tis the season to be jolly, of goodwill to all men etc etc.
So please no more mud slinging. Let's get back to normal service of getting along and improving our hobby.

Cheers Graham.

Thank you for the positive sentiments, and Merry Christmas to you!

For what it's worth, even I admit the 7D can autofocus better than the 6D in good light!  Far better actually.  I am not here claiming the 6D can autofocus better in good light than any camera, actually.  Maybe it's better than an older Rebel, I don't know.  For some lenses the 6D AF's better than my 50D did, for others it does not.  The 50D was not terrible at autofocusing, it was pretty good. 

I'm just against the thought that the 6D can't ever get more than half its shots in focus while in servo mode, because that's definitely not how it is.  Anyone who says otherwise is either using a 6D with a faulty AF sensor, or they're intentionally tripping it up by relying on the outer points (as in by using all the points...because again, the little man inside the camera that tells which points are dominant, is keen to let those lesser capable outer points have sway over the better center point, especially while in servo mode.)

This is not a difficult phenomenon to observe...the points light up.  Who are you going to believe, me or your lying forum eyes as they read the naysayers?  :P...So for the millionth time...don't rely on 6D outer AF points in servo mode.  Use the camera correctly, or else don't complain.

If you simply must have all points active, or you want a large or spaced group of precise points and a fast, high performance autofocus...pay the extra money and get a different camera.  But don't tell me I don't get over half my shots in sharp focus, when I do...
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 03:26:33 AM by CarlTN »

CarlTN

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Re: 6D autofocus capabilites: let's bust some myths about it
« Reply #137 on: December 18, 2013, 03:28:52 AM »
Perfectly obvious Canon dropped the ball with the 6D, giving it weaker AF than the 60D.  Canon makes mistakes and should be called on them, just as they should be praised for the many cameras they get so wonderfully right.

Note that I don't call the AF issue a mistake simply because I have to pay more for a FF with good AF.  Putting the weak system in the entry level FF was a blunder because Canon needs dSLR customers committed to its entire eos/ef system.  Ticking off current customers looking to upgrade to FF was bad business, as was turning off prospective customers comparing Canon's offerings to those of other companies.  If Canon had simply equaled the xxD line's AF in an entry level FF, they'd have had more customers coming in and more customers with ef-s lenses looking to buy new lenses for their FF.  But Canon was shortsighted, stingy, and over protective of the 5DIII, which was simply out of range for a great many enthusiasts.

You make it sound like the D600 or D610, have outsold the 6D.  Have they?  As for having a weaker AF than the 60D, I'm not sure if it is.  Is the 60D's AF sensor any different than the 50D's?  I had a 50D for 4 years...

One thing the 60D DOES NOT HAVE, and one thing both the 6D and 50D have...is autofocus micro adjustment.  The 6D even has it for both the wide and tele ends of a zoom lens. 

So in my opinion, the 60D's autofocus sucks, for that reason alone.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 03:30:58 AM by CarlTN »

CarlTN

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Re: 6D autofocus capabilites: let's bust some myths about it
« Reply #138 on: December 18, 2013, 03:33:41 AM »
Nobody thought the 6D was well thought out for any level of photographer, except, maybe, those who do a lot of arranged and found still life on tripods and could use Live View most of the time.  That's too specialized for success.

WOW. So the 6D cannot be good for any pro work with its AF system?

Two pics I took some other day (I'm not claiming I'm a pro).  Went and used the outer points. JPEG OOC, using my 24-105L at 105mm (not very sharp lens, I know, but I love it anyway). The first one was taken handheld, 1/50.



Next one: it was dark, if I weren't using flash, I believe I would need ISO 12800 for a good exposure. Also taken at 105mm, but 1/100.



Last saturday I went to a birthday party and took the 6D with me. Kids were playing, so I thought that I would try its SERVO mode. Center point only, JPEG OOC (except for curves), silent mode (3 fps), at 105mm, ISO 1600, 1/1600s:









Subject was running 3.4 meters away (and came to 2.7m on it's closest picture). AF settings to prioritize focus.

Seems good to me. Until now, I cannot say the 6D is holding me back.

Nice shot, she has kind eyes.  Can I date her?

eninja

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Re: 6D autofocus capabilites: let's bust some myths about it
« Reply #139 on: December 18, 2013, 04:00:37 AM »
I got the 6D for about one year now.
The least description of 6D that makes me happy "owning" it is that:

"The 6D is better than 5Dii in about every aspect."
And 5Dii have took a lot of great pictures.

Just sharing what I thought about the AF of my 6D.
Im very amateur and shoot still people.
And I really dont check and compare if focus was spot on. 
At decent light like normal house room with fluorescent lighting or sunlight outside or soft light outdoor.
Outer focus points works.

I am happy with 6D Outer point AF, can't say much.

edit:
And I am using the Un-sharpest Lens of all: EF 28mm F1.8.
( i am the only person who love 28mm, not to wide and not too long for 1 meter distance shot)
And the cheapest lens of all: EF 75-300 F4-5.6 iii

picture from EF 75-300: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ic0hcyf4gzncd18/IMG_4315.JPG


« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 04:24:17 AM by eninja »

CarlTN

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Re: 6D autofocus capabilites: let's bust some myths about it
« Reply #140 on: December 18, 2013, 04:08:21 AM »
I got the 6D for about one year now.
The least description of 6D that makes me happy "owning" it is that:

"The 6D is better than 5Dii in about every aspect."
And 5Dii have took a lot of great pictures.

Just sharing what I thought about the AF of my 6D.
Im very amateur and shoot still people.
And I really dont check and compare if focus was spot on. 
At decent light like normal house room with fluorescent lighting or sunlight outside or soft light outdoor.
Outer focus points works.

I am happy with 6D Outer point AF, can't say much.

Glad to hear you like yours!  Yes in that light the outer points work, they just aren't reliable in servo mode.  It really also depends on the lens.  There were plenty of people who complained about the 5D2 autofocus.  It's just that they had to either buy it, or the 1Ds3...or the D700.  The D700 was probably the more capable stills camera.  It just didn't have the resolution (at low ISO), and was from the wrong company...had the wrong ergonomics...I could go on.

J.R.

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Re: 6D autofocus capabilites: let's bust some myths about it
« Reply #141 on: December 18, 2013, 04:21:36 AM »

How about a handheld shot indoors in a dark room at 300mm and f/5.6 (with the 70-300L), for .8 seconds at ISO 10,000?  Is that not low light?  If a 5D3 can autofocus in that amount of light, I'll go buy 10 of them tomorrow...

Those settings would result in close to EV +1. The AF working range of the 5D3 is between EV (-) 2 to (+) 18 so yeah ... it will autofocus.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 04:23:35 AM by J.R. »
Light is language!

Marsu42

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Re: 6D autofocus capabilites: let's bust some myths about it
« Reply #142 on: December 18, 2013, 04:39:54 AM »
How about a handheld shot indoors in a dark room at 300mm and f/5.6 (with the 70-300L), for .8 seconds at ISO 10,000?  Is that not low light?  If a 5D3 can autofocus in that amount of light, I'll go buy 10 of them tomorrow...
Those settings would result in close to EV +1. The AF working range of the 5D3 is between EV (-) 2 to (+) 18 so yeah ... it will autofocus.

Thanks for the calculation, imho Canon pulled a real marketing stunt with the -3LV af as the 6d defining feature since it's only the center point, and very few people will need this one stop more, ever.

For me it's still useful for silently af'ing animals in very dark conditions w/o af assist for flash shots, and neuro has convinced me that there might be some long expo handheld shots with IS that are -3LV. For tripod shots I'D still take live view focusing with ML focus peaking and "night mode" lv boost over phase af...

candc

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Re: 6D autofocus capabilites: let's bust some myths about it
« Reply #143 on: December 18, 2013, 07:50:20 AM »


How about a handheld shot indoors in a dark room at 300mm and f/5.6 (with the 70-300L), for .8 seconds at ISO 10,000?  Is that not low light?  If a 5D3 can autofocus in that amount of light, I'll go buy 10 of them tomorrow...

10 of them, thats 610 af points, Dang!

the 6d af does what its supposed to but like the rest of the camera, its not real exciting. it needs some cool sounding features like "dual pixel auto focus". dual anything sounds awesome, dual rectifier, dual exhaust. maybe next one will get a dual core digic+ image processor, now that sounds cool.


neuroanatomist

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Re: 6D autofocus capabilites: let's bust some myths about it
« Reply #144 on: December 18, 2013, 09:21:15 AM »

How about a handheld shot indoors in a dark room at 300mm and f/5.6 (with the 70-300L), for .8 seconds at ISO 10,000?  Is that not low light?  If a 5D3 can autofocus in that amount of light, I'll go buy 10 of them tomorrow...

Those settings would result in close to EV +1. The AF working range of the 5D3 is between EV (-) 2 to (+) 18 so yeah ... it will autofocus.

Actually, by accepted convention those settings are EV –1.67, which is above the specified EV –2 sensitivity of the 5DIII.  I have empirically confirmed that my 1D X (same AF sensor as the 5DIII) can AF at those light levels.

Carl, I look forward to tomorrow when you post a scanned image of the receipt or invoice for the 10 5DIII bodies you're going to buy.  Unless you were not being honest...  Of course, I would not find that surprising – it seems commensurate with your rudeness and insulting behavior. 
EOS 1D X, EOS M, and lots of lenses
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Marsu42

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Re: 6D autofocus capabilites: let's bust some myths about it
« Reply #145 on: December 18, 2013, 09:51:31 AM »
maybe next one will get a dual core digic+ image processor, now that sounds cool.

Actually the last one might be useful, more capable cameras have a second processor for autofocus - and on the 6d when enabling multipoint tracking, the struggle of the camera to decide where to focus is pitiful. But then again, the 60d did better with an even slower digic4, so the 6d firmware might as well to blame.

Carl, I look forward to tomorrow when you post a scanned image of the receipt or invoice for the 10 5DIII bodies you're going to buy.

Oh, come on, don't be so hard on him - you known he's doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to the 6d (though he has a refreshingly stern opinion based on that)... and everybody is entitled to a little enthusiasm. Maybe he can get off the 10x 5d3 purchase if he pledges to learn about the "Insert Quote" and "Edit Post" buttons so he doesn't have to do 5 separate posts with complete quotes in succession :-) ?

Chuck Alaimo

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Re: 6D autofocus capabilites: let's bust some myths about it
« Reply #146 on: December 18, 2013, 11:25:15 AM »
Half a year now on my 6d, and running side by side with a 5d3.  I shoot mostly weddings and portraits, with some events splashed in.  I have to say for all the talk about the 6d's lacking AF, it's really not that bad.  I am not shooting sports though or high action - so the weakness (servo mode) isn't a deal breaker for me.  But with that said, it can get the job done... (lol...if you have to drive a nail in and only have a screw driver, you can get the nail in, yeah a hammer is the correct tool, but, you can still bang it in there with the butt end...)

The outer points, for stills, are usable in the right situations (and if its dark, the AF assist beam from a flash can make up the difference).

It's really not a bad camera!
Owns 5Dmkiii, 6D, 16-35mm, 24mm 1.4, 70-200mm 2.8, 50mm 1.4, 85 mm 1.8, 100mm 2.8 macro, 1-600RT, 2 430 EX's, 1 video light

Skirball

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Re: 6D autofocus capabilites: let's bust some myths about it
« Reply #147 on: December 18, 2013, 11:37:58 AM »
How about a handheld shot indoors in a dark room at 300mm and f/5.6 (with the 70-300L), for .8 seconds at ISO 10,000?  Is that not low light?  If a 5D3 can autofocus in that amount of light, I'll go buy 10 of them tomorrow...

You can handhold at 300mm for .8 seconds?  I guess I don't have a steady grip.

Not to get in yet another one of your pissing matches, but I do find the low light centerpoint to be useful when shooting in a dark room with off-camera flash.

Marsu42

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Re: 6D autofocus capabilites: let's bust some myths about it
« Reply #148 on: December 18, 2013, 11:50:55 AM »
You can handhold at 300mm for .8 seconds?  I guess I don't have a steady grip.

Nobody can do that without a large amount of luck, not even our unofficial 6d ambassador, but you're thinking of 100% crop sharpness - if you're shooting for a small print/viewing size a bit shaky shot is better than one completely out of focus.

but I do find the low light centerpoint to be useful when shooting in a dark room with off-camera flash.

+1, and I'm also using the low-light af with a flash on a bracket - but it's slow, that's why I'll most likely get the new Yn radio trigger with built-in af assist.

YuengLinger

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Re: 6D autofocus capabilites: let's bust some myths about it
« Reply #149 on: December 18, 2013, 07:52:53 PM »
"One thing the 60D DOES NOT HAVE, and one thing both the 6D and 50D have...is autofocus micro adjustment.  The 6D even has it for both the wide and tele ends of a zoom lens."

Agreed, lack of micro adjustment is a deficiency of the 60D.  But the point is that the lowly 60D has an all around more robust, quicker AF for those of us who want more than one AF point dead in the center.  I've used it in a lot of situations, low light, birds in flight, landscape--always super reliable, quick AF at any point.

(In fact, I guess I was lucky with the lenses on my 60D, as they were all sharp, even my ef 50mm 1.4.

On my 5DIII, only two lenses need AF micro adjust--my 100mm 2.8 macro (standard) and my Sigma 35mm 1.4.  My zooms are all great.)

Anyway, AF micro adjust is for another thread, but it is undeniably an important feature and a "pro" for the 6D.

Happy holidays, all!
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 09:05:31 PM by YuengLinger »