October 23, 2014, 02:57:41 PM

Author Topic: 6D autofocus capabilites: let's bust some myths about it  (Read 60680 times)

CarlTN

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 2227
    • View Profile
Re: 6D autofocus capabilites: let's bust some myths about it
« Reply #270 on: April 20, 2014, 03:25:29 AM »
Additionally, he adds in that the 1Dx and 5D3 would have never AF'd in a particular situation that the 6D did.  He also makes the accusation that we've never shot with the 6D so how can we comment?

1.  The 1Dx and 5D3 would have easily AF'd in that case, so that point right there is simply objectively WRONG.
2.  He hasn't shot with the 1Dx or 5D3, yet makes the above comment.  Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. 

Is he for real?  There's NO WAY any sane person could both make the arguments he's making and simultaneously believe in those arguments.

The AF system of the 1Dx is best = $6799
The AF system of the 5D3 is second best = $3399
The AF system of the 6D is the "least good" out of all 3 = $2000 ish

Hmm, surprising!

It's just silliness. The 6D is a nice, affordable 135 format DSLR. It has some nice features, but AF is hardly its selling point. -3LV autofocus, as has been pointed out, has some significant practicality issues.

Who the hell ever said the 6D's autofocus was a "selling point"?  Not me.  I'm calling b/s though, and that's now your color.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 03:38:34 AM by CarlTN »

canon rumors FORUM

Re: 6D autofocus capabilites: let's bust some myths about it
« Reply #270 on: April 20, 2014, 03:25:29 AM »

CarlTN

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 2227
    • View Profile
Re: 6D autofocus capabilites: let's bust some myths about it
« Reply #271 on: April 20, 2014, 03:35:03 AM »

Here's some shots of rare Swedish Red Ear'd Biggies Piggies taken with the centre point of a 6D with a 50mm f1.4 @1.4. Nails the focus plane near as damn it 8 times out of ten. Cropped and recomposed, so not 'focus and recompose'.

Biggies Piggies just won't keep still for a moment !

We have an almost 2-year-old toddler who can move about as quickly and randomly as these piggies, and the AF with my 6D and 50 f/1.4 and 85 1.8 does just fine under f/2.0 using the center point.  Overall, my hit rate for moving kid shots is in the 75-80% range, and I'm happy with that.  I know a 5D3 or 1Dx would do much better, but for my overall use (kids/landscapes/portraits/macro and a little high school golf and cross country) the 6D is a great camera.


Exactly.  Four years, many people (myself included) were clamoring for a camera that unified the image quality of the 5DII with the autofocus of the 7D.  Canon delivered, even better than expected, with the 5DIII – and charged a premium for it.  But they also delivered the 6D, basically a very modest update to the 5DII (already an excellent camera, AF notwithstanding) with a functionally equivalent AF system, but at a lower price.  That's a win-win.

Well summarized, I agree.  If you want a camera with superior AF, buy a 1Dx or 5D3.  The 6D has IQ in the same ballpark as the higher end cameras, but a limited AF system.  That's why its $1K+ cheaper than the 5D3.  Personally, I'm glad Canon gives us price and capability options.

Agree on all points, never said otherwise.  Yet just because I dare to say the 6D autofocuses "decently", and because I attempted and ACHIEVED focus recompose at a distance of 4 INCHES IN THE DARK...the manchildren are throwing a tantrum again.   

Happy Easter to you all, even to those who spew name calling, hatred and personal attacks.  To the moderators, Happy Easter to you as well.  If you don't celebrate it, I'm not too surprised... ;D

sanj

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 1558
    • View Profile
Re: 6D autofocus capabilites: let's bust some myths about it
« Reply #272 on: April 20, 2014, 08:12:28 AM »
Can someone please explain dumb me what does focus at "-3ev" actually mean? Thanking in advance.

Note that phase af always works with open aperture, i.e. your camera will need more LV with a slow f5.6 lens than with a fast f1.4 one to still be able to focus... one reason to get a f2.8 zoom even if you seldom actually take pictures @f2.8 and are ok to carry the bulk/weight + pay for it.

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/ev.htm

Thx. Understand a bit more...

sanj

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 1558
    • View Profile
Re: 6D autofocus capabilites: let's bust some myths about it
« Reply #273 on: April 20, 2014, 08:14:14 AM »



Can someone please explain dumb me what does focus at "-3ev" actually mean? Thanking in advance.

Exposure values were initially used to merely compare exposure settings, and settings independent of film speed. EV0 was defined as 1sec at f/1. In this context, it is assumed to be at 100ISO (ISO100, aka light value). EV0 light would require f/1 at 100 for 1 second or equivalent to properly expose. EV-3 is three stops darker, or f/1 at 100 for 8 seconds, or f/0.7 at 200 for 2 seconds, etc. In other words, it's dark.

Thx much. So 6d center point would focus better in low light?

J.R.

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 1512
    • View Profile
Re: 6D autofocus capabilites: let's bust some myths about it
« Reply #274 on: April 20, 2014, 09:37:38 AM »



Can someone please explain dumb me what does focus at "-3ev" actually mean? Thanking in advance.

Exposure values were initially used to merely compare exposure settings, and settings independent of film speed. EV0 was defined as 1sec at f/1. In this context, it is assumed to be at 100ISO (ISO100, aka light value). EV0 light would require f/1 at 100 for 1 second or equivalent to properly expose. EV-3 is three stops darker, or f/1 at 100 for 8 seconds, or f/0.7 at 200 for 2 seconds, etc. In other words, it's dark.

Thx much. So 6d center point would focus better in low light?

As per the theory, yes.

However, I find that EV3 is the extreme of low light and I'm not sure what can be shot handheld.

I'm sure AF at EV-3 is useful to some people, but as far as I'm concerned I don't shoot too often in extreme low light. When I do, I (a) use the tripod and AF is pretty much irrelevant; OR (b) use AF assist with a speedlite. 

PS: I'm sure someone will come along denouncing me for not trying the AF at EV-3, but personally, I haven't found it too useful. I'm also yet to be faced with a situation where my 6D could achieve AF and the 5D3 could not.
5D3, 6D, 600D, RX100
16-35L, 24-70L II, 70-200L II, 100-400L, 50L, 85L II, 135L, 24TSE, 40, 100 macro, 18-55 II, 55-250 II, 600RT x 4
I come here to learn something new, not to learn how bad my gear is - I know that already ;-)!

sanj

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 1558
    • View Profile
Re: 6D autofocus capabilites: let's bust some myths about it
« Reply #275 on: April 20, 2014, 10:07:09 AM »



Can someone please explain dumb me what does focus at "-3ev" actually mean? Thanking in advance.

Exposure values were initially used to merely compare exposure settings, and settings independent of film speed. EV0 was defined as 1sec at f/1. In this context, it is assumed to be at 100ISO (ISO100, aka light value). EV0 light would require f/1 at 100 for 1 second or equivalent to properly expose. EV-3 is three stops darker, or f/1 at 100 for 8 seconds, or f/0.7 at 200 for 2 seconds, etc. In other words, it's dark.

Thx much. So 6d center point would focus better in low light?

As per the theory, yes.

However, I find that EV3 is the extreme of low light and I'm not sure what can be shot handheld.

I'm sure AF at EV-3 is useful to some people, but as far as I'm concerned I don't shoot too often in extreme low light. When I do, I (a) use the tripod and AF is pretty much irrelevant; OR (b) use AF assist with a speedlite. 

PS: I'm sure someone will come along denouncing me for not trying the AF at EV-3, but personally, I haven't found it too useful. I'm also yet to be faced with a situation where my 6D could achieve AF and the 5D3 could not.

Thank you. I am concluding then I am not missing out on anything.

ATC

  • Power Shot G7X
  • **
  • Posts: 25
    • View Profile
Re: 6D autofocus capabilites: let's bust some myths about it
« Reply #276 on: April 20, 2014, 10:43:00 AM »

Here's some shots of rare Swedish Red Ear'd Biggies Piggies taken with the centre point of a 6D with a 50mm f1.4 @1.4. Nails the focus plane near as damn it 8 times out of ten. Cropped and recomposed, so not 'focus and recompose'.

Biggies Piggies just won't keep still for a moment !

We have an almost 2-year-old toddler who can move about as quickly and randomly as these piggies, and the AF with my 6D and 50 f/1.4 and 85 1.8 does just fine under f/2.0 using the center point.  Overall, my hit rate for moving kid shots is in the 75-80% range, and I'm happy with that.  I know a 5D3 or 1Dx would do much better, but for my overall use (kids/landscapes/portraits/macro and a little high school golf and cross country) the 6D is a great camera.


Exactly.  Four years, many people (myself included) were clamoring for a camera that unified the image quality of the 5DII with the autofocus of the 7D.  Canon delivered, even better than expected, with the 5DIII – and charged a premium for it.  But they also delivered the 6D, basically a very modest update to the 5DII (already an excellent camera, AF notwithstanding) with a functionally equivalent AF system, but at a lower price.  That's a win-win.

Well summarized, I agree.  If you want a camera with superior AF, buy a 1Dx or 5D3.  The 6D has IQ in the same ballpark as the higher end cameras, but a limited AF system.  That's why its $1K+ cheaper than the 5D3.  Personally, I'm glad Canon gives us price and capability options.

Agree on all points, never said otherwise.  Yet just because I dare to say the 6D autofocuses "decently", and because I attempted and ACHIEVED focus recompose at a distance of 4 INCHES IN THE DARK...the manchildren are throwing a tantrum again.   

Happy Easter to you all, even to those who spew name calling, hatred and personal attacks.  To the moderators, Happy Easter to you as well.  If you don't celebrate it, I'm not too surprised... ;D


Thank you, I was beginning to question my decision to get a 6D. I'll keep it, as I am very happy with the performance for my uses!
SL1 - 18-55   40D - Tamron 18-270PZD   6D - 24-105, 50 1.4, 70-300,  EX430 II

canon rumors FORUM

Re: 6D autofocus capabilites: let's bust some myths about it
« Reply #276 on: April 20, 2014, 10:43:00 AM »

3kramd5

  • Canon 6D
  • *****
  • Posts: 449
    • View Profile
Re: 6D autofocus capabilites: let's bust some myths about it
« Reply #277 on: April 20, 2014, 04:33:38 PM »
Additionally, he adds in that the 1Dx and 5D3 would have never AF'd in a particular situation that the 6D did.  He also makes the accusation that we've never shot with the 6D so how can we comment?

1.  The 1Dx and 5D3 would have easily AF'd in that case, so that point right there is simply objectively WRONG.
2.  He hasn't shot with the 1Dx or 5D3, yet makes the above comment.  Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. 

Is he for real?  There's NO WAY any sane person could both make the arguments he's making and simultaneously believe in those arguments.

The AF system of the 1Dx is best = $6799
The AF system of the 5D3 is second best = $3399
The AF system of the 6D is the "least good" out of all 3 = $2000 ish

Hmm, surprising!

It's just silliness. The 6D is a nice, affordable 135 format DSLR. It has some nice features, but AF is hardly its selling point. -3LV autofocus, as has been pointed out, has some significant practicality issues.

Who the hell ever said the 6D's autofocus was a "selling point"?  Not me.  I'm calling b/s though, and that's now your color.

Wow. Relax, Carl. It's a turn of phrase. I intended it as synonymous with "strong point."

I don't even know what you mean by the bit about color... ?
5D3, 5D2, 40D; Various lenses

BL

  • Canon 6D
  • *****
  • Posts: 411
  • Great gear is good. Good technique is better.
    • View Profile
Re: 6D autofocus capabilites: let's bust some myths about it
« Reply #278 on: April 21, 2014, 01:50:51 AM »
Are there really two threads going on about this camera's AF pushing 20 pages now? 

Why can't people just agree to disagree, and accept the fact the 6D is a great camera for what it is - an entry level FF body with great IQ but with simplified AF.

Sometimes one tool is better than another based on needs/wants.

To put things in perspective, my SLRs are playing backup to my EOS M at the moment  :o
M, 5Dc, 1Dx, some lenses, a few lights

candyman

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 1400
    • View Profile
    • My Website
Re: 6D autofocus capabilites: let's bust some myths about it
« Reply #279 on: April 21, 2014, 02:34:08 AM »
...........Why can't people just agree to disagree, and accept the fact the 6D is a great camera for what it is - an entry level FF body with great IQ but with simplified AF.
.................
+1
The 5D MKII is/was used many years - also by professionals - to produce stunning photos to generate money. The 6D is a better camera than the 5D MKII and surely will fullfil the same role. It is a very good camera that produces IQ on par with the 1DX and 5DMKIII
5DIII w/grip  |  6D  |  16-35L IS  |  24-105L  |  70-300L  |  24-70VC  |  70-200 f/2.8L IS II  |  35 f/2 IS  |  50A  |  135L

Marsu42

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 4820
  • ML-66d / 100L / 70-300L / 17-40L / 600rts
    • View Profile
    • 6D positive spec list
Re: 6D autofocus capabilites: let's bust some myths about it
« Reply #280 on: April 21, 2014, 02:50:17 AM »
Are there really two threads going on about this camera's AF pushing 20 pages now?

In fact, you just made the thread one post longer :-)

Why can't people just agree to disagree, and accept the fact the 6D is a great camera for what it is - an entry level FF body with great IQ but with simplified AF.

In general, if people would  just agree upon your opinion and call it a day things would be much simpler indeed :-p

Sometimes one tool is better than another based on needs/wants.

Which would be the point with the 6d: Is it better at anything, or is it really just a cheap version of the 5d3? It does have gps and wifi, that's obvious. As for the -3LV center point af, if and when this is useful is not a simple matter - imho this is mostly a Canon marketing stunt to add a unique selling point, though it's certainly "nice to have".

As for the af system, this has basically become a troll thread: To the amazement of (almost) everyone else, one particular person claims the 6d has a capable af system and if you don't get what you want you're probably not using it properly or are not a good enough photog. Imho putting this af system in a 2012 €1600 camera is a disgrace and not meant as an "entry level" system but crippled to protect the 5d3, they should have left out the outer af points in the first place :-o as the 6d basically is a 1-pt af system. Ymmv if you have super powers :-p

Sporgon

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 1979
  • 5% of gear used 95% of the time
    • View Profile
    • www.buildingpanoramics.com
Re: 6D autofocus capabilites: let's bust some myths about it
« Reply #281 on: April 21, 2014, 03:19:47 AM »
Which would be the point with the 6d: Is it better at anything, or is it really just a cheap version of the 5d3? It does have gps and wifi, that's obvious.

Yes it has gps and wifi. Personally these are of limited use to me but can be added to the 5DIII one way or another anyway.

But it does have other characteristics which set it apart from the 5D III. It is smaller and lighter, has interchangeable screens, and cost a lot less. We chose one for Building Panoramics and not only because it is cheaper.

Missing out the outer points altogether ? In the vast majority of static situations they work perfectly well when required for ultra shallow and close distance shots; ie. when 'focus and recompose' would give back focus.

The AF argument isn't really vs the 1D/5DIII system, it's against the cheaper cameras such as the 650D which have 'better' AF. I briefly had the 650D and didn't find it to be much difference.

As for the -3EV centre point, I have found that the 5DII will focus with the centre point in moonlight and I don't know what that's supposed to be rated at.

Funny isn't it that the 5DII was undoubtably 'crippled' by simple AF to keep it out of 1Ds III territory, yet the vast majority ( for a marketing point of view) still chose to use it over the 1DsIII, eventually resulting in the dropping of that line, and upgrading the 5D line to full professional status.

There are much more annoying things about the AF of the 6D than the points themselves; having to use the 'rebel' interface of first having to press an activation button before you can press the point moving button is much more of an issue.

Marsu42

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 4820
  • ML-66d / 100L / 70-300L / 17-40L / 600rts
    • View Profile
    • 6D positive spec list
Re: 6D autofocus capabilites: let's bust some myths about it
« Reply #282 on: April 21, 2014, 04:02:19 AM »
Missing out the outer points altogether ? In the vast majority of static situations they work perfectly well when required for ultra shallow and close distance shots; ie. when 'focus and recompose' would give back focus.

This really improves af w/ fast lenses? I don't have lenses faster than f2.8, but reading the specs the outer points only have f5.6 precision and are so near the f2.8 center point that my guess was that focus and recompose still is better than using the outer points? This is the reason I wouldn't buy a fast prime for the 6d with the intent to af, but I'm happy to stand corrected.

There are much more annoying things about the AF of the 6D than the points themselves; having to use the 'rebel' interface of first having to press an activation button before you can press the point moving button is much more of an issue.

Fyi: You can use Magic Lantern to fix that, the first thing I personally added to ML after I got the 6d was the option to switch af points w/o meta key but directly with the cursor keys :-p ... alas, I'm using them a lot less as the hunting of the non-cross points is so annoying.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: 6D autofocus capabilites: let's bust some myths about it
« Reply #282 on: April 21, 2014, 04:02:19 AM »

jd7

  • Canon AE-1
  • ***
  • Posts: 77
    • View Profile
Re: 6D autofocus capabilites: let's bust some myths about it
« Reply #283 on: April 21, 2014, 04:35:26 AM »
But it does have other characteristics which set it apart from the 5D III. It is smaller and lighter, has interchangeable screens, and cost a lot less. We chose one for Building Panoramics and not only because it is cheaper.

Missing out the outer points altogether ? In the vast majority of static situations they work perfectly well when required for ultra shallow and close distance shots; ie. when 'focus and recompose' would give back focus.


+1

Quote

The AF argument isn't really vs the 1D/5DIII system, it's against the cheaper cameras such as the 650D which have 'better' AF. I briefly had the 650D and didn't find it to be much difference.


+1

Quote

There are much more annoying things about the AF of the 6D than the points themselves; having to use the 'rebel' interface of first having to press an activation button before you can press the point moving button is much more of an issue.

If you go into the 6D's custom settings (Magic Lantern not required), you can set it up so you don't have to press the AF-point selection activation button (or whatever it's called - I assume you mean the button near the top right corner of the camera when you have you eye to the viewfinder) to select an AF point.  You can set it so you simply press the 8 way switch/dial to move the AF-point around.  It's still a very sad second best to having a joystick (like on a 7D/5D series/etc), but it's an awful lot better than having to press the AF-point selection button first every time you want to move an AF point.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 04:39:50 AM by jd7 »
6D | 24-70 4L IS | 70-200 4L IS | 70-200 2.8L IS II | 35 2 IS | 40 2.8 | 85 1.8 | 1.4x mk II | 430EX II

jd7

  • Canon AE-1
  • ***
  • Posts: 77
    • View Profile
Re: 6D autofocus capabilites: let's bust some myths about it
« Reply #284 on: April 21, 2014, 05:16:26 AM »
It seems CarlTN isn't the only person to contend there are situations where the 6D's AF will lock when the 1Dx's will not ...

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-EOS-6D-Digital-SLR-Camera-Review.aspx

I'd much rather have the 5D3's/1Dx's AF system, or the 7D's AF system for that matter ... and I suspect if being able to AF at -3EV gave a significant practical benefit in many circumstances, it would have found its way into the 1Dx and 5D3 (although I suppose it's just possible it wasn't ready in time for those cameras but it was ready in time for the 6D).  For all that though, I suspect the 6D's AF is probably "good enough" for many people much of the time.  I miss my 7D sometimes, but (as an amateur) I get by with the 6D ... even for photographing things like tennis.  Anything involving erratic action is certainly a "challenge" though.
6D | 24-70 4L IS | 70-200 4L IS | 70-200 2.8L IS II | 35 2 IS | 40 2.8 | 85 1.8 | 1.4x mk II | 430EX II

canon rumors FORUM

Re: 6D autofocus capabilites: let's bust some myths about it
« Reply #284 on: April 21, 2014, 05:16:26 AM »