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Author Topic: Nikon D800 at 36mp, Will Canon Respond?  (Read 31762 times)

moreorless

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Re: Nikon D800 at 36mp, Will Canon Respond?
« Reply #105 on: October 06, 2011, 10:10:41 AM »
One thing to consider is that Canon might actually have a mirrorless  as there "cheap" FF body. That would likely steal Nikon's thunder even if it didnt outspec the D800.

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Re: Nikon D800 at 36mp, Will Canon Respond?
« Reply #105 on: October 06, 2011, 10:10:41 AM »

eos650

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Re: Nikon D800 at 36mp, Will Canon Respond?
« Reply #106 on: October 06, 2011, 10:53:23 AM »
I was reading up on the Sony SLT-A77 with the translucent mirror and found myself thinking that a hi-bred might be a nice solution. Imagine a camera with a translucent mirror, like the Sony, that could operate in both modes (fixed or reflex).

In the fixed mode you would have live view, with fast, continuous focusing and high frame rates. The Sony goes up to 12fps. The disadvantage is that only about 70% of the light reaches the sensor.

In the reflex mode, the mirror would operate similar to today's DSLR's, where it would flip up, to take the picture and back down, to view and focus. The disadvantage would be that the view finder would only get about 30% of the light so it would either need to be electronic (yuck) or it would appear darker.

I wonder if they could make a translucent mirror that has variable reflectivity. Maybe the mirror could have some sort of electronically activated coating or possibly a lcd that has reflective crystals. This could allow the mirror to be more reflective when in reflex mode and more translucent, when in fixed mode. Hmmm...

JonJT

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Re: Nikon D800 at 36mp, Will Canon Respond?
« Reply #107 on: October 06, 2011, 11:05:49 AM »
and by production graphics cards, I mean Nvidia Quadro or AMD Firepro cards ... don't get the stuff your buddies use for gaming if you're concerned about per-dollar performance in graphics applications.

I will take the GTX 570 over a Quadro 5000. And if you really want the best get a GTX 580.  Seeing that they are Adobe certified cards; both of the GTX cards have more Cuda Cores than the Quadro 5000, 480 & 512 respectably.
All 3 are 320 bit cards.

The one main advantage is less energy demand from the Quadro cards.  Because you can get a GTX card with 3gb or 2.5gb of ram now.  And I'll happily save $1500 on a video card.

Quadro cards are amazing in Autodesk & Maya; but for photography and adobe based video a GTX card will do more than enough for a fraction of the price.

Most people here would be better off with a 2GB 560 Ti, 120 GB SSD, and $1300 than a Quadro 5000.

I have to second this.  I regularly use Avid, Premiere, After FX, Lightroom and Photoshop on both on an old 9series GeForce and a brand new $1800 Quadro 5000 - there is no discernable difference.  I've worked many years in digital media and the Quadro cards give you nothing over a $200 nvidia 'gaming' card when using the aforementioned software.  I know it may be hard to believe since you'd naturally equate such a vast difference in cost to some sort of gain, but there is none.  Poke around the internet and you'll find other testimonials.

hi guys, thanks for correcting me on that.  you're right, I was thinking of 3D applications when I wrote that, but for 2D photo work, the gaming cards are indeed a better bang for the buck.  I appreciate the catch.

the original point stands as regards to the poster's computer setup; I would be very surprised given the quad core 3 GHz and 8 GB of RAM that he would have any issues with processing images off of the 5D Mark II; the only thing I can think of is getting 1 or 2 graphics cards to do some extra lifting.
Eh, I'm not convinced a dual card setup is more cost effective than just buying a faster single card, particularly for 2D applications.

I do some CAD work with small assemblies and relatively simple parts occasionally, in addition to 2D photo work.  I'm going to stick with a Radeon 6850. 

kubelik

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Re: Nikon D800 at 36mp, Will Canon Respond?
« Reply #108 on: October 06, 2011, 11:16:31 AM »
Eh, I'm not convinced a dual card setup is more cost effective than just buying a faster single card, particularly for 2D applications.

I do some CAD work with small assemblies and relatively simple parts occasionally, in addition to 2D photo work.  I'm going to stick with a Radeon 6850. 

wasn't trying to convince you away from a Radeon 6850 as it's a very capable card.  I only use my Xfire Radeon 6950's for huge images, otherwise I'm on a laptop that is running like a 3-generation old Nvidia mobile graphics card ... and it processes my 5D Mark II images fine.

again, the point was, someone else was wondering why their well-specified system was freezing while processing 5DII images.  I couldn't think of anything other than the fact that maybe he might benefit from a video card.

as far as 1-card vs 2-cards go, the newer Nvidias appear excellent at scaling when performing 3D tasks, I don't know if they distribute 2D tasks as efficiently.  If they do, then a 2-card setup would still present a bargain over a single high-end card... but, that's assuming your motherboard will support SLI/Xfire and your power supply is adequate.

Zuuyi

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Re: Nikon D800 at 36mp, Will Canon Respond?
« Reply #109 on: October 06, 2011, 01:16:39 PM »
I said a singe card setup; the reason I said a GTX 570 or 580 is for Cuda Support in Adobe Applications.  Here's a benchmark of the change CUDA support made in Adobe Premiere. http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/geforce-gtx-580-gf110-geforce-gtx-480,2781-13.html

 Otherwise a Radeon card is just as good as a Nvidia card.  But I don't game, or do 3d Modeling so Nvidia Cuda is a winner for me.  And CS5.5 doesn't use the second card in a SLI setup so I would just do a single GTX 570 or 580 (if you can afford it).

kubelik

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Re: Nikon D800 at 36mp, Will Canon Respond?
« Reply #110 on: October 06, 2011, 01:53:10 PM »
I said a singe card setup; the reason I said a GTX 570 or 580 is for Cuda Support in Adobe Applications.  Here's a benchmark of the change CUDA support made in Adobe Premiere. http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/geforce-gtx-580-gf110-geforce-gtx-480,2781-13.html

 Otherwise a Radeon card is just as good as a Nvidia card.  But I don't game, or do 3d Modeling so Nvidia Cuda is a winner for me.  And CS5.5 doesn't use the second card in a SLI setup so I would just do a single GTX 570 or 580 (if you can afford it).


Very cool to know.  Thanks for sharing that bit of info!

Edwin Herdman

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Re: Nikon D800 at 36mp, Will Canon Respond?
« Reply #111 on: October 07, 2011, 11:40:58 PM »
The GIMP freeware editor is close to releasing a rework of the entire processing engine to use only non-destructive, graphics card-accelerated processing.

nVidia used to make my favorite graphics cards...but CUDA is just another attempt to try to force a split in the market with some nonstandard proprietary garbage - the other big negative story out of nVidia on this track is PhysX, of course.  I also view their 3D driver as useless but everybody's big on that (even outside personal computers) so I guess that's a "platform agnostic" problem.  Say what you will about Microsoft and AMD - they've been big on developing and sticking to standards (DirectX - although that isn't so big a presence in 2D applications - and OpenGL; there's also OpenCL which AMD uses to push out its Accelerated Parallel Processing, which replaces ATI Steam).  Absent the sudden bankruptcy of AMD, Photoshop is certainly going to improve its support for AMD cards even more in the future - last I checked AMD had made up most of the lost ground already (though I could be wrong on this detail).

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Re: Nikon D800 at 36mp, Will Canon Respond?
« Reply #111 on: October 07, 2011, 11:40:58 PM »

Edwin Herdman

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Re: Nikon D800 at 36mp, Will Canon Respond?
« Reply #112 on: October 08, 2011, 12:01:21 AM »
This Nikon one seems to have a poor ISO which is odd.
That would be odd; what are you basing this off?



For those of you worried about Canon's response I would like to point out something. The
7D has a 22.3mm x 14.9mm sensor (area of 332.27 sq mm) and takes images that are 5184 x 3456 (17915904 pixels).

17915904  / 332.27 = 53919.72 pixels / square mm

A full-frame sensor is 36mm x 24mm (864sq mm). If Canon used the 7D sensor technology that packs 53919.72 pixels/sq mm on a full-frame sensor it would be 53919.72 * 864 = 46586638.08, which is a little over 46.5 mp.

Canon, using 2 year old sensor technology, could release a 46.5mp full-frame camera with 7D ISO performance. I wouldn't speculate on whether they will choose to do so.

UPDATE: Another thought occurred to me. 46.5 is a little more than twice the 5D Mk II. Wouldn't it be interesting if there was an HDR mode to this sensor which took a 23.2mp image with half the photosites set to one ISO and the other half at a higher ISO?
Your major assumption seems to be that it is no more difficult or expensive to create a sensor with a larger surface area than another, but with the same pixel pitch (and also that the size of camera pixels isn't dependent on the production process, and also that there is no improvement in production processes in two years).  Even with two years' development time, this could (I can't say for certain, not knowing the ins and outs of Canon's tech roadmap and which facilities they use for which processes) require using a more expensive process than they currently use for full frame sensors (of the same generation as the 7D, that is) and they also probably would have to lock down the reject rate (I'm not saying it is cheaper to have lots of rejects if they only take up a smaller part of the silicon wafer at the plant, however).

By the time all that work has been put in, what I think they're actually going to do is just produce the sensor with the best qualities that makes use of the current production technology, which will give them the smallest feature size at no higher cost.  It might not cost much to keep older tech lines going a while longer, but if the 18mp sensors use an older, "coarser" production process it might actually cost them money while not putting them at the forefront of the race with technology.

To pull all the technobabble out of the post - if Canon now uses newer factory machinery to make their sensors than were available for the 18mp sensor in 2009, the features of the new sensor will be mostly determined by that new process.  They would not use the older process because it puts them behind in technology while giving them no real benefit in cost savings because everybody else is rolling out newer tech as well.

All that junk aside, I think you're onto something - as a baseline that is probably easily achievable for Canon given it already has had something out for a couple years with a pixel pitch that would let you make a high resolution sensor, as you said.

As for your HDR mode idea - that's an interesting idea, but I don't think it would work with current technology, unless you want your pictures to have the appearance of an interlaced or dithered image (at best).  I think the DIGIC's probably equipped to process pixels the fastest when all pixels are assumed to be at the same ISO - of course this doesn't mean it isn't possible but it may end up being very slow or even cause some accuracy problems, as before the DIGIC can work with the raw photosites they have to undergo an ADC process, and again I would wonder if the design is such that you can just specify some exact, arbitrary pixel is going to have different gain applied to it than the last and next ones.

The bigger problem is how to mesh what are actually different images taken from different locations into one, because in your model you have to offset one image to "fit" the other, which means interpolation, which further means inaccuracy and real data is lost.  In your theoretical HDR camera, the "second" frame of DR is either every other pixel, which means it's not taken from the same location, and different details will be recorded (as I said - this would be worse than halving resolution), or it is every other line, which is funky as well.

All the same I would love it if they did some pixel binning or something similar to help extend DR, if possible.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2011, 12:09:52 AM by Edwin Herdman »

onkel_wart

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Re: Nikon D800 at 36mp, Will Canon Respond?
« Reply #113 on: October 08, 2011, 02:47:12 AM »
I'll probably not have the money to chip in on those machines, but I would want a FF with not more than 18mpix but iso quality bordering on nightvision. They should leave out all the gimmicks no one really needs (except marketing departments and those nerds comparing useless features, they'll never ever use (correctly)).
But of course the logics of the free market are not always logical....

Edwin Herdman

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Re: Nikon D800 at 36mp, Will Canon Respond?
« Reply #114 on: October 08, 2011, 05:32:46 PM »
But of course the logics of the free market are not always logical....
Apparently the logistics of producing high technology gadgets aren't logical, either ;)  High ISO comes hand in hand with high resolution in most all cases.  Even if ISO isn't "great" you get far more detail to fight noise with.

onkel_wart

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Re: Nikon D800 at 36mp, Will Canon Respond?
« Reply #115 on: October 09, 2011, 02:17:25 AM »
But of course the logics of the free market are not always logical....
Apparently the logistics of producing high technology gadgets aren't logical, either ;)  High ISO comes hand in hand with high resolution in most all cases.  Even if ISO isn't "great" you get far more detail to fight noise with.
I think it's rather the problem of doing something better versus doing something new. I have worked in software development for thirty years now. The new stuff always wins management over....

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Re: Nikon D800 at 36mp, Will Canon Respond?
« Reply #115 on: October 09, 2011, 02:17:25 AM »