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Author Topic: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected  (Read 14693 times)

sdsr

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #75 on: November 16, 2013, 07:27:37 PM »

"THAT SAID, there are tons of shots that you also could have taken that would have worked out with Exmor sensor that either failed totally with the 5D3 or have some noticeable IQ nasties." — That is your theory.  It's not supported by actual photos, let alone "tons" of them.  And I'm talking about actual photos, not DxO tests.  My point — that Canon sensors have been up to the task of landscape photography for years — is proven by actual work by real photographers.


I think you're somewhat missing his point - if some landscapes (or anything else - needn't be landscapes) haven't been captured because of dynamic range extremes, the evidence is either negative (you delete the photo as beyond rescue or don't bother to try taking it in the first place) or photos where you can see that some shadows are too dark or some highlights have been blown to retain shadow detail.  You can't count the former, while the latter are a matter of taste - so you can't really count them, either.  One may not need to do so often, but there's no question that if you try to recover underexposed portions of photos you'll get less noise in those areas via a Sony sensor in a Nikon or Pentax or Olympus camera than you will, in varying degrees (6D is better than 5DII or III, for instance).  Have you never wanted/needed to do this? 

The fact that tons of great landscape etc. photos have been taken with Canons is not a counterargument (there are plenty of great photos which aren't very good from a technical standpoint; if a photo's good enough chances are you don't even think about such things); the photos are great despite, not because of, the technical limitations of the camera, and they wouldn't be worse if they had been taken with a camera with greater DR. The question is whether there would be more good photos if cameras had greater DR.  It's hard to see why this question could have a negative answer (except maybe of the when-I-was-a-lad-we-walked-to-school-barefoot sort, i.e. that having to work around limitations makes you take better photos).

If the sensor that Panasonic and Fuji (I think) are working on lives up to its promise, it should blow everything else away, but apparently we won't see it in a camera for another year or so - at which point the focus of DR whining will presumably shift a little....  With luck this silly debate will eventually become obsolete.

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #75 on: November 16, 2013, 07:27:37 PM »

zlatko

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #76 on: November 16, 2013, 08:33:39 PM »
And while Canon is criticized for "refusing" to deliver more DR, it is Nikon and Sony that are failing to deliver video performance to match that of the 5D3.


Which is why you keep your 5D3 for sports and video and buy the A7R for your landscapes. If Canon were update to date with sensors you'd just buy the one Canon but they aren't so you add the A7R.

(also 5D3 only rules for video mostly because of the ML hack, so while Canon engineers did make a camera that delivers video in spades, marketing or someone had it shipped pretty crippled; it is surprising that Sony punts so badly on video though I will add, if anyone should have that down it should be them).


The A7R will be great for landscapes, and will no doubt provide more detail for very large prints.  However, you don't need an A7R for landscapes.  Starting in 2008, Salgado used the previous generation 1DS3 to photograph landscapes and other subjects in Algeria, Alaska, Arizona, Brazil, etc.  The result is a magnificent book.  As early as 2002, Michael Reichmann (Luminous-Landscape.com) favored the original 1DS over the medium format Pentax 67II.  So Canon sensors have been up to the task of landscape photography for quite some time.  DR is just one of many factors in choosing a landscape camera.


Yes, once again nobody said it's impossible to take amazing landscape shots with a 5D3, of course you can, hundreds and thousands and millions of them. THAT SAID, there are tons of shots that you also could have taken that would have worked out with Exmor sensor that either failed totally with the 5D3 or have some noticeable IQ nasties. Maybe some of us, heaven forbid, are excited to get to shoot some of those scenes, stuff nobody could ever pull off well before, well???

Quote
The Camera labs review (http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Sony_Alpha_A7r/) of the A7 & A7R is pretty clear on the 5D3 having superior video quality.  No Magic Lantern is involved in that conclusion.


Yeah but the advantage becomes smaller then. D800 video is actually more details and with more range, although with some more moire and aliasing than stock 5D3 video. 1DX in cam video is pretty good, better good for sure than any from Nikon or Sony. 5D3 with ML RAW is pretty awesome to say the least. One wonders what on earth canon did to the signal between it arriving for liveview and before compression (it is NOT bad compression that is hurting it as uncompressed out over HDMI doesn't help at all), you almost wonder if they don't call a C-line protecting subroutine that says like GaussianBlur() followed by KillDR() and then, for good measure, a MakeTightGrainIntoDigitalClumpyNoise() ;D since ML RAW proves that the HW is actually producing vastly better quality and clean HDMI proves it is not the compression chip mucking things up. Either marketing had them cripple it or the Digic chip simply stinks at processing video.


"THAT SAID, there are tons of shots that you also could have taken that would have worked out with Exmor sensor that either failed totally with the 5D3 or have some noticeable IQ nasties." — That is your theory.  It's not supported by actual photos, let alone "tons" of them.  And I'm talking about actual photos, not DxO tests.  My point — that Canon sensors have been up to the task of landscape photography for years — is proven by actual work by real photographers.


OMG yes we all know you can take amazing landscape shots with a 5D3 and you don't have to own an A7R to take a nice landscape shot but that doesn't mean there are not shots where the A7R wouldn't do a lot better, and that is not some dumb theory we have based on some stupid lab nonsense but from our own countless real world hours in the field, and maybe just maybe given the option some people would rather not pass up some of the shots that push the 5D3 and kind too far? OK? But I guess heaven forbid someone want to take some shots that didn't use to be possible before because they have to become sinners and use a body that doesn't say Canon on it. Apparently even if they still use Canon branded lenses that is not enough for you.

You know people managed to get a few sports shots years ago too so by your logic why should anyone buy a 1DX? Because it says Canon on it? I guess so, because the AF and fps and whatnot are obviously of no worth at all right? No? Well then maybe stop to think it can be the same for landscape stuff too.

Yes we know, and we've said you can take millions of perfectly find landscapes shots with a 5D3, but that doesn't mean that someone might not be able to get something extra out of the A7R compared to the 5D3 at times and if someone wants that what the heck is the big problem? That Canon is not stamped on every last pieces of equipment?


Quote
"Either marketing had them cripple it or the Digic chip simply stinks at processing video."  — It is amazing that when faced with a review showing Canon's superior video performance, you still come up with a Canon-bashing theory, blaming their marketing and/or their technology.


Check out the serious video/film forums and you'll see the same comments. Compare clean HDMI out vs ML RAW and tell me there isn't a radically difference in quality even beyond the extra bits to deal with. And maybe if you didn't fanboy so much you wouldn't egg people on to sound like anti-fanboys.


"Yes we know, and we've said you can take millions of perfectly find landscapes shots with a 5D3, but that doesn't mean that someone might not be able to get something extra out of the A7R compared to the 5D3 at times and if someone wants that what the heck is the big problem?" — The "big problem" is that you repeatedly trash Canon for making deficient sensors when that simply isn't true.  There is nothing wrong with wanting more from any brand.  As I wrote in another thread, photographers can use absolutely more of everything a camera can do, no matter what camera they are using.  So go ahead and wish for more DR if that is important to you (or simply buy the brand that offers it).  But don't blame Canon for making deficient sensors when their sensors are perfectly good for a wide variety of tasks and meet the standards of some very demanding photographers (for years now).  Moreover, photographers have dealt with limited DR ever since photography was invented.  In the film era, Ansel Adams wrote about raising underexposed shadows and recovering (or failing to recover) blown highlights — but he didn't blame Kodak when he screwed up.  He understood that the sensor (film) would always have limited DR and that exposure was always his responsibility.  Indeed, he understood exposure within the DR as a creative/technical decision.

Rienzphotoz

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #77 on: November 17, 2013, 07:40:50 AM »
This might be interesting to some of you (what I found interesting starts at 3 minutes and ends at 25 minutes of the video)
Sony A7 & Sony A7R Hands-on & Tested & Special Launch Event Small | Large
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spinworkxroy

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #78 on: November 17, 2013, 10:26:52 AM »
I was a 5D3 user and that was my workhorse camera for everything i shoot and i love that camera.
However, i wanted something smaller and lighter and since i was on FF, i needed it to be FF and I can't afford a Leica.
So in a way, the Sony A7r was what i always wanted.

I spent an hour today with the A7r and the A7 and comparing to the 5D3, the AF is definately not as fast but it's not slow either.
The continuous focusing is no where near the 5D3..it fails quite miserably actually but thankfully what i shoot, i don't use continuous AF. Surprisingly, i find the A7 even slower to focus than the a7r with the same lens.

The EVF is still not as nice to look at compared to the OVF but i guess you get used to it.. IQ however, even SOOC, that's where the 5D3 even with a good prime can't match the A7r.

Ultimately, if you are looking at something to dethrone the 5D3, this isn't going to do it except in terms of IQ. Everything else, i think the 5D3 is better.

But for me, it's light, REALLY small in the hands, fantastic IQ even SOOC jpg and it's exactly what i need for what i shoot.

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #79 on: November 17, 2013, 11:17:29 AM »
I was a 5D3 user and that was my workhorse camera for everything i shoot and i love that camera.
However, i wanted something smaller and lighter and since i was on FF, i needed it to be FF and I can't afford a Leica.
So in a way, the Sony A7r was what i always wanted.

I spent an hour today with the A7r and the A7 and comparing to the 5D3, the AF is definately not as fast but it's not slow either.
The continuous focusing is no where near the 5D3..it fails quite miserably actually but thankfully what i shoot, i don't use continuous AF. Surprisingly, i find the A7 even slower to focus than the a7r with the same lens.

The EVF is still not as nice to look at compared to the OVF but i guess you get used to it.. IQ however, even SOOC, that's where the 5D3 even with a good prime can't match the A7r.

Ultimately, if you are looking at something to dethrone the 5D3, this isn't going to do it except in terms of IQ. Everything else, i think the 5D3 is better.

But for me, it's light, REALLY small in the hands, fantastic IQ even SOOC jpg and it's exactly what i need for what i shoot.
Interesting.
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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #80 on: November 17, 2013, 12:40:25 PM »
The DRiarrhea debate... once again hijacking all topics here on CR. MR would be proud!

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spinworkxroy

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #81 on: November 17, 2013, 08:02:20 PM »
I'm not that bothered about DR or how many megapixels it has. Honestly, i find 36 a little too many..thankfully there are options to shoot at 15 or 9mp. Even on my 5d3, i'm usually shooting at mRaw.
However, i must the the raw files from the A7r provide much more detail for editing and it's easier to bring out details than with the 5d3. Even images straight out of camera are rendered much nicer. Maybe it's the lens..but it has a look that i love that the 5d3 doesn't give me unless i edit  it alot.

Here's 1 example to took yesterday that is straight out of the camera and direct to facebook.
I actually shot this from my phone, NFC to the A7r with the 35mm zeiss and uploaded to FB immediately after shooting.


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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #81 on: November 17, 2013, 08:02:20 PM »

Dylan777

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #82 on: November 17, 2013, 09:55:35 PM »
I was a 5D3 user and that was my workhorse camera for everything i shoot and i love that camera.
However, i wanted something smaller and lighter and since i was on FF, i needed it to be FF and I can't afford a Leica.
So in a way, the Sony A7r was what i always wanted.

I spent an hour today with the A7r and the A7 and comparing to the 5D3, the AF is definately not as fast but it's not slow either.
The continuous focusing is no where near the 5D3..it fails quite miserably actually but thankfully what i shoot, i don't use continuous AF. Surprisingly, i find the A7 even slower to focus than the a7r with the same lens.
The EVF is still not as nice to look at compared to the OVF but i guess you get used to it.. IQ however, even SOOC, that's where the 5D3 even with a good prime can't match the A7r.

Ultimately, if you are looking at something to dethrone the 5D3, this isn't going to do it except in terms of IQ. Everything else, i think the 5D3 is better.

But for me, it's light, REALLY small in the hands, fantastic IQ even SOOC jpg and it's exactly what i need for what i shoot.

REALLY? What lens did tried with?
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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #83 on: November 17, 2013, 10:57:05 PM »
This might be interesting to some of you (what I found interesting starts at 3 minutes and ends at 25 minutes of the video)
Sony A7 & Sony A7R Hands-on & Tested & Special Launch Event


Woah, the Sony rep at the end of the video said that they will give you a Metabones adapter of your choice with the purchase of a body (no lens).
I know it's been mentioned elsewhere, but it's the first I've heard of it.
-100% RAW-

spinworkxroy

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #84 on: November 18, 2013, 12:21:06 AM »
Quote from: Dylan777
REALLY? What lens did tried with?

The 35mm f2.8 zeiss...the "default" lens for the A7r

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #85 on: November 18, 2013, 09:33:40 AM »
Quote from: Dylan777
REALLY? What lens did tried with?

The 35mm f2.8 zeiss...the "default" lens for the A7r

Thanks for info. Did you get a chance to play with A7/A7R with Zeiss 55mm? - if yes, do you find this combo still at compact level?
« Last Edit: November 18, 2013, 09:44:29 AM by Dylan777 »
Body: 1DX -- 5D III
Zoom: 24-70L II -- 70-200L f2.8 IS II
Prime: 40mm -- 85L II -- 135L -- 400L f2.8 IS II

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #86 on: November 18, 2013, 09:52:59 AM »
The DRiarrhea debate... once again hijacking all topics here on CR. MR would be proud!
How dare you call it "hijacking" ... don't you know DR is everything! ... with enough DR in the sensor, you can even put an empty toilet roll tube and take awesome images, coz everything is auto freakin matic! ;D
« Last Edit: November 18, 2013, 10:54:42 AM by Rienzphotoz »
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spinworkxroy

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #87 on: November 18, 2013, 10:13:47 AM »
Quote from: Dylan777
Thanks for info. Did you get a chance to play with A7/A7R with Zeiss 55mm? - if yes, do you find this combo still at compact level?

Unfortunately no, they ONLY had the 35mm lenses on the cameras. They didn't have any other FE lenses to test with. They did however have a whole load of metabones adapters to attach your own lenses and the Sony Amount SLT adapter.
However, i did ask them about the size of the 55 and the 24-70f4 and since they had ALL the A mount lenses on display,  ithey were able to give a rough example of their sizes and all i can say..it's about the size of the 17-40 from Canon so it's NOT small at all. the 35mm is the ONLY small compact size lens.

I tried it with the Canon 50mm f1.4 and the metabones mk3...it's soooo slow it's impossible to really use for work..average 2 sec AF.

I also tried the A mount adapter with the Zeiss 24-70 f2.8. This is SUPER fast..like a 5d3 but it's basically the same AF as a99 so it's expected. however, it is soooo front heavy..it's super uncomfortable to hold.

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #87 on: November 18, 2013, 10:13:47 AM »

sdsr

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #88 on: November 18, 2013, 10:23:43 AM »


I spent an hour today with the A7r and the A7 and comparing to the 5D3, the AF is definately not as fast but it's not slow either.
The continuous focusing is no where near the 5D3..it fails quite miserably actually but thankfully what i shoot, i don't use continuous AF. Surprisingly, i find the A7 even slower to focus than the a7r with the same lens.

The EVF is still not as nice to look at compared to the OVF but i guess you get used to it.. IQ however, even SOOC, that's where the 5D3 even with a good prime can't match the A7r.

Ultimately, if you are looking at something to dethrone the 5D3, this isn't going to do it except in terms of IQ. Everything else, i think the 5D3 is better.

But for me, it's light, REALLY small in the hands, fantastic IQ even SOOC jpg and it's exactly what i need for what i shoot.

Out of curiosity, was this hand-held or on a tripod?

Albi86

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #89 on: November 18, 2013, 01:40:28 PM »
The DRiarrhea debate... once again hijacking all topics here on CR. MR would be proud!
How dare you call it "hijacking" ... don't you know DR is everything! ... with enough DR in the sensor, you can even put an empty toilet roll tube and take awesome images, coz everything is auto freakin matic! ;D

As with the a7 debate, some people are convinced that what's good for them must be good for everybody, otherwise it's just lack of skill.

Still I can't help thinking that if it was the Canon EOS 7, with its high DR 36mpx sensor, the music here would be somewhat different.

They seem to be brilliant cameras. Of course a first attempt is not quite going to destroy a technology matured over decades, but I believe it's very shortsighted to ignore its potential and the many advantages.

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #89 on: November 18, 2013, 01:40:28 PM »