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Author Topic: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected  (Read 14635 times)

Woody

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #30 on: November 14, 2013, 10:19:40 PM »
Yes. I agree about long lenses on mirrorless :-\ It doesn't make sense.

The market has clearly devided in segments:
1. DSLR system - Canon & Nikon are still the best choice for photogs
2. Compact high end & mirrorless systems - Sony & Fuji seem to have upper hand

The Sony 70-200 f/4 OSS lens for mirrorless E-mount weighs 840g, even heavier than Canon EF 70-200 f/4 IS lens. While Sony wide to standard lenses for FF E-mount are lighter than Canon's EF lenses, the weight of their telephoto lenses immediately negates all the so-called mirrorless advantage.

For mirrorless, Sony and Olympus dominates. Fujifilm market share is too small. Remember the Internet Amplification Effect: many folks may claim the Fuji mirrorless cameras are excellent, but the market isn't buying them.

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #30 on: November 14, 2013, 10:19:40 PM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #31 on: November 14, 2013, 10:37:06 PM »
As a dad with 2 kids(2.5 & 5yrs), the last thing I want to carry to disneyland is 5D III + 24-70 II. I live 20mins away from Disneyland, Anaheim, California and we have annual passes for our family. I see a lot of dads at disneyland busy taking picture with huge DSLR: 1DX, 5D III, 7D  + grip and red ring lenses while the wifes taking care 1-3-4 kids herself

...

This is when I truely appreciate the body size of my RX1 and X100s . I know FF mirrorless is not for everyone, but it's for me.

Mine are 5 yrs and 3 yrs daughters and a 0.5 yrs son.  On our last amusement park trip, I took the 1D X, 24-70/2.8L II, and 70-300L.  Admittedly, having a second lens is easier with a stroller along. But I had 1-2 of the kids the whole time, with camera+lens on a BR strap so my hands were free.  I rode rides, held little hands, wiped soft serve-covered faces, etc.  I liked that I had a camera I could count on to track my wife and daughters on the roller coaster while I stayed with the baby, had the high ISO performance to handle my daughters being invited on stage at a musical show in a dark theater (ISO 25,600 for a 1/250 s shutter speed as they danced with the performers), and was able to take pictures of my daughters as we rode Dr. Geyser's raft ride and all got drenched (including the camera). 

That's when I truly appreciate the robustness and functionality of a 1-series body and L-series lenses.  I know a FF Pro body is not for everyone, but it's for me.  ;)
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eml58

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #32 on: November 14, 2013, 10:57:09 PM »
I am always happy when companies innovate and make interesting stuff. I do not see any reason why we should not appreciate their efforts. Really.

And that's pretty well where i sit, On this particular Camera (the a7r), I've gone from "Interesting development","Could work well as a back up smaller system FF to the 1Dx" "Pre Order" "cancel Pre-Order".

The only real reason I've decided to sit back and wait & see is the reports I'm reading re the a7r and poor focus in low light, even with the Zeiss 55 f/1.8, that's a real need for what I would expect to use this Camera for.
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Cali_PH

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #33 on: November 14, 2013, 11:06:01 PM »


Not sure I want to get into this either but...for what it's worth...if a Canon shooter buys a D800(E), you can't use your Canon glass on it, which of course will normally mean a large investment in new glass.  However, there's a selection of existing adapters that fit on the A7 & A7r.  There are many videos of people already using Canon, Nikon, Leica, etc. mount lenses on the A7, so with the adapter, you can immediately use your Canon (or other) glass. 



 
I think that people are wrong to expect a fully functioning Canon lens on the Sony camera.  You can mount it, and perhaps it will autofocus, but will it focus accurately?  Will it track?  Which focus points work?  How accurate will the exposure be?  Can you control the aperture??
 
Sony will likely not recognize the code that a Canon lens sends to the body in order for the body to know all about the lens and make exposure and focus point selections, or control the aperture.  When you put your 85mm f/1.2 lens on the camera, can you set the aperture to f/1.2??  I'm skeptical.
 
I'd like to see some factual review of how well it works, or if its just a manual operation rather than just claims from someone who has not actually operated one.


I, for one, never said anything about 'fully' functioning' or expecting the same autofocus performance.  I'd expect it to be slower at the very least, and wouldn't be surprised if it had other issues as you mention.  Here's one of the videos I've seen of someone trying the autofocus with a pre-production version.  It's not really a full review, or an extensive test with every Canon lens or anything, but he shows the autofocus with one Canon lens at around 12 minutes.  Perhaps some lenses won't focus at all with it, I have no idea. 

Sony A7 & A7R Hands-On Field Test Small | Large
 

Nishi Drew

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #34 on: November 14, 2013, 11:53:35 PM »
I honestly don't think the loud shutter would be a problem for street photos… the city is noisy, no one can hear my 5DII

And I didn't expect the AF to be stellar, but seems it might be better than the 5DII at least (what isn't?), however I plan to get the Mark 3 soon anyways, and that's another league above of course.

What's this though… UNDER 300 shots per charge, haha I need 3 batteries to match a DSLR?
No way it's lasting through an event, I'm going to be switching more and likely missing shots!
And the slow shutter sync is another factor, I like outdoor strobe shooting.

Now, I do get the temptation of wanting one as a second body, or just general purpose, the A7 is so affordable from start and just thinking about the possible drop in value over time is exciting (well, RX1 is still up there but...).
For what these two cameras are, they're probably really good and would fit the bill with many shooters, but for what I do and even like to do casually, although the smaller size is appreciated, it's not quite there yet. Sony will eventually bring out another camera in the future so I will see how that goes too, by then perhaps AF and battery technology would have improved enough

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2013, 12:14:48 AM »
The A7 and A7r I really don't get however.  If you just want 30+ MP and/or greater DR than Canon offers, buy a D800(E).  At least you will have a large selection of lenses available and know the manufacturer won't abandon you by moving on to a new lens mount or IBIS in a few months.

Maybe because withthe D800 you have to commit to 100% swapping systems right now. Give up the better Canon video, the Canon 24-70 II and 17 and 24 T&S and 70-300L and MPE, nicer UI, etc. With the A7R you don't. Sure it's a hack and not as nice as a full performance body in one so if Canon drops the ball again for DR maybe you do finally go Nikon, but the A7R at least gives you some time to put that off a bit longer.

A7R is a lot less money than going through a system, swap too.

Who here in Canonland getting the A7R for the DR and such gives about IBIS and whatnot? Who the heck cares?

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2013, 12:22:16 AM »

I think that people are wrong to expect a fully functioning Canon lens on the Sony camera.  You can mount it, and perhaps it will autofocus, but will it focus accurately?  Will it track?  Which focus points work?  How accurate will the exposure be?  Can you control the aperture??



Who cares?? (ok, maybe the wildlife guys wanting FF with more reach, but as we said this is just a hold over to see if Canon delivers or not)

If you are a Canon user you are getting it for the MP/DR for landscapes most likely. You are not replacing your 5D3 or 1DX or 7D with this, it's a supplement. A hack to get the DR Canon refuses to deliver to so far.

(ok well everyone would care about the aperture control, but yes the adapter absolutely allows you to control that, it's not an issue; and as for exposure I don't know it shouldn't be able to do it with Canon lenses, but even if it got 00, who cares, it's landscape you are probably doing M mode anyway or could easily enough swap to that, yeah sure it's all a little less convenient at times, as said, it's a hack to get more MP/DR for landscapes using Canon glass, but not that big of a deal and if you can't manage to get to the proper exposure pretty quickly on your own with a digital camera even if the metering isn't working at all then I doubt you even know waht DR or perhaps even MP even are)

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2013, 12:22:16 AM »

Dylan777

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2013, 01:00:29 AM »
.
How can you possibly expect to win friends and influence people around here if you keep bringing nothing but good sense and rational thinking?

You pretty much nailed my thinking exactly. Thanks for putting it on paper (well, screen).

For me, Canon is satisfying my needs almost completely. If I had a few bucks for the frivolous side, I'd probably go for the Fuji X100S, but certainly not anything with interchangeable lenses. I'm biding my time until the right second camera comes along to replace my T2i, but I'm not in a hurry. I like a lot about the EOS-M, but I'm waiting until the next iteration shows up to decide. If I go that way, I simply add something to my Canon system -- I don't have to go build a whole new system.

For the first time ever I walked through a Whole Foods grocery store today. (And purchased nothing.) Like any sensible old geezer I just shook my head as I looked at all the fashionably dressed, intelligent-appearing people wasting gobs of money on food that can be had for a lot less in many other places. I look at folks who buy what Sony is selling in much the same way.

I probably shouldn't even wade into this, but I can't help myself.

I just don't get mirrorless. Well...I sorta do...I kinda get Fuji mirrorless, but that's about it.

I don't get why anyone would risk investing in a system that may or may not be around a decade from now. Say what you will about Nikon and Canon, but I'd rather bet on their systems remaining available for the next decade or so than on any other manufacturer.

Interesting POV ???

5-6yrs ago when I didn't know anything about camera, I thought spending  2-3 hundred dollars on DSLR is a waste.

Then 1st kid showed up. I started with 40D + 50mm f1.4 borrowed through a friend. Love the IQ.

Then the friend told me about 5D II + 50mm f1.4. I thought all cameras are same, so why should I spend more $$$ on FF sensor? I gave a try....felt in love with bokeh. I ended up with 5D III due to 61points AF system.

One day, I was shopping with the wife. I decided you swing by Sony store to check out their latest LED TV. I saw the RX1....I took a few shots with my own SD card. The next thing I know I spent $2800 through BH, follow RX100 II. My 2 cents. Sony makes the BEST high-end compact & mirrorless - PERIOD. Not Nikon, Not Canon

In life...we need to taste diff. things to know what out there.   
« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 01:23:51 AM by Dylan777 »
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Dylan777

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #38 on: November 15, 2013, 01:06:50 AM »
I just don't get mirrorless. Well...I sorta do...I kinda get Fuji mirrorless, but that's about it.

I don't get interchangeable lenses on a mirrorless. If I want a smaller, fake Leica body I'd want a single, fixed lens moderate zoom (24mm-100mm for example). I'm not going to use a 200mm 2.8 lens on a mirrorless camera, much less a 70-300 or 100-400 zoom. No point. I'd rather pay a little more, get a stellar zoom that I can use under all conditions and save the interchangeable lenses for the DSLR, which is a lot more practical form factor for changing lenses.

+1 well said!

This is when I truely appreciate the body size of my RX1 and X100s

I "get" the RX1 and X100s, there is a need for small, portable cameras with great IQ.  The A7 and A7r I really don't get however.  If you just want 30+ MP and/or greater DR than Canon offers, buy a D800(E).  At least you will have a large selection of lenses available and know the manufacturer won't abandon you by moving on to a new lens mount or IBIS in a few months.

DR is extra thing for me in term of buying Sony camera. Also, I'm not a high MP guy, if I did, I would have order A7 R instead of A7 ;)

Primary reason I want A7: compact body, FF, be able to swap lenses. I don't need all the lenses Sony/Zeiss has to offer. I'm interested in: 14 or 16mm, 35mm, 50mm, and 85mm.

« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 01:25:42 AM by Dylan777 »
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zlatko

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2013, 01:11:37 AM »

I think that people are wrong to expect a fully functioning Canon lens on the Sony camera.  You can mount it, and perhaps it will autofocus, but will it focus accurately?  Will it track?  Which focus points work?  How accurate will the exposure be?  Can you control the aperture??




Who cares?? (ok, maybe the wildlife guys wanting FF with more reach, but as we said this is just a hold over to see if Canon delivers or not)

If you are a Canon user you are getting it for the MP/DR for landscapes most likely. You are not replacing your 5D3 or 1DX or 7D with this, it's a supplement. A hack to get the DR Canon refuses to deliver to so far.

(ok well everyone would care about the aperture control, but yes the adapter absolutely allows you to control that, it's not an issue; and as for exposure I don't know it shouldn't be able to do it with Canon lenses, but even if it got 00, who cares, it's landscape you are probably doing M mode anyway or could easily enough swap to that, yeah sure it's all a little less convenient at times, as said, it's a hack to get more MP/DR for landscapes using Canon glass, but not that big of a deal and if you can't manage to get to the proper exposure pretty quickly on your own with a digital camera even if the metering isn't working at all then I doubt you even know waht DR or perhaps even MP even are)


If you are a Canon user, you may be getting an A7/A7r because you would love to have such a small full-frame camera with the option to use some great lenses, such as those from Leica and Zeiss.  One's interest in the A7/A7r may have nothing to do with DR.  Anyone who has seen Salgado's magnificent Genesis project knows that Canon delivers for landscapes, wildlife, portraits, etc.  People who are still "waiting" for Canon to deliver more DR presumably have more demanding applications than Salgado, and yet can't seem to switch to Sony/Nikon.  And while Canon is criticized for "refusing" to deliver more DR, it is Nikon and Sony that are failing to deliver video performance to match that of the 5D3 (as per Cameralabs - http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Sony_Alpha_A7r/).

Dylan777

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2013, 01:11:58 AM »
This is when I truely appreciate the body size of my RX1 and X100s ;). I know FF mirrorless is not for everyone, but it's for me.

http://www.photographyblog.com/news/sony_a7_v_olympus_om_d_e_m1_v_canon_eos_5d_mk_iii/


Interesting pic. How big are your hands? Mine aren't lumberjack type but still large/long and even my old 60d was feeling cramped. What's the feeling from a pure handling purpose (not even ergonomics)


If you can find a Sony store in your area and give it a try ;)
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Dylan777

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2013, 01:21:41 AM »
As a dad with 2 kids(2.5 & 5yrs), the last thing I want to carry to disneyland is 5D III + 24-70 II. I live 20mins away from Disneyland, Anaheim, California and we have annual passes for our family. I see a lot of dads at disneyland busy taking picture with huge DSLR: 1DX, 5D III, 7D  + grip and red ring lenses while the wifes taking care 1-3-4 kids herself

...

This is when I truely appreciate the body size of my RX1 and X100s . I know FF mirrorless is not for everyone, but it's for me.

Mine are 5 yrs and 3 yrs daughters and a 0.5 yrs son.  On our last amusement park trip, I took the 1D X, 24-70/2.8L II, and 70-300L.  Admittedly, having a second lens is easier with a stroller along. But I had 1-2 of the kids the whole time, with camera+lens on a BR strap so my hands were free.  I rode rides, held little hands, wiped soft serve-covered faces, etc.  I liked that I had a camera I could count on to track my wife and daughters on the roller coaster while I stayed with the baby, had the high ISO performance to handle my daughters being invited on stage at a musical show in a dark theater (ISO 25,600 for a 1/250 s shutter speed as they danced with the performers), and was able to take pictures of my daughters as we rode Dr. Geyser's raft ride and all got drenched (including the camera). 

That's when I truly appreciate the robustness and functionality of a 1-series body and L-series lenses.  I know a FF Pro body is not for everyone, but it's for me;)

1. How many times did you hit the kids with your 1D X + 24-70 and 70-300? ;D

And

2. How many advil did you take after that trip? ;D

I would go that route if there is no other choices. Here we have some options to choose, why not use that as our advantage.

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Dylan777

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2013, 01:34:52 AM »
Yes. I agree about long lenses on mirrorless :-\ It doesn't make sense.

The market has clearly devided in segments:
1. DSLR system - Canon & Nikon are still the best choice for photogs
2. Compact high end & mirrorless systems - Sony & Fuji seem to have upper hand


The Sony 70-200 f/4 OSS lens for mirrorless E-mount weighs 840g, even heavier than Canon EF 70-200 f/4 IS lens. While Sony wide to standard lenses for FF E-mount are lighter than Canon's EF lenses, the weight of their telephoto lenses immediately negates all the so-called mirrorless advantage.

For mirrorless, Sony and Olympus dominates. Fujifilm market share is too small. Remember the Internet Amplification Effect: many folks may claim the Fuji mirrorless cameras are excellent, but the market isn't buying them.


Well, I own one and I do know how Fuji mirrorless performs: http://www.dylanphotography.phanfare.com/6246818
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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2013, 01:34:52 AM »

MLfan3

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #43 on: November 15, 2013, 05:02:45 AM »
I could pick it up in this morning on the way to my work place.
Well, it has some issues, froze up many times when I put some F to E mount adapter to use my Nikon AF-S105mm f2.8GEDVR lens.
When it froze up , it refused to do anything , I  just had to take out the batter to turn it down.
so, I guess I am returning it , I bought a 7R and 7 kit , with plan to sell one I less liked.

but I think I am done with Sony, Sony is never reliable , I will just wait Samsung, Fuji or Canon or Nikon to come up with soemthing similar with more reliable mount design(the E mount is optimized for APS-C , thus, it is a bit too narrow for the FF sensor).

I think Sony has some interesting ideas but never materializes right , never makes it really mature.
the RX1 was fine cause it was not a system camera , but this one is not, it is , as usual with Sony ,just a impractical toy camera that never works as promised.

I mean Sony should or could also release at least a few more lenses with it, and the FW has  a lot of bugs , too many times freezes up , and it takes long time to format a SD card.

Oh and it is not selling well. Sony told me unless pre-ordered it , we would not get it at the launch.
 but in reality we could pick it up quite easily this morning here, and I did not pre order it..
Another big issue of that camera is the extremely loud shutter noise. 

neuroanatomist

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #44 on: November 15, 2013, 06:53:31 AM »
1. How many times did you hit the kids with your 1D X + 24-70 and 70-300? ;D

And

2. How many advil did you take after that trip? ;D

I would go that route if there is no other choices. Here we have some options to choose, why not use that as our advantage.

None and none.  I don't have any problems with my coordination, and I've spent so much time carrying my kids around as they're growing up that even my 1D X + 600/4L IS II doesn't seem like that much of a load...

Choices are good, but we make them based on priorities. Sometimes small size is most important, but often with kids I prioritize AF, frame rate, and high ISO performance. 

Also, are the Sony cameras weather sealed?  Beyond water rides at amusement parks, I live in New England.  We have this stuff here called weather (well, they call it weathaaah, but since I was born in California and lived there for over 30 years, I know how to use the letter 'R'), that you don't get in CA.  ;)  A sunny, 85° day can turn quickly to a 'wicked bad downpoaaah', you're a target in a snowball fight whether or not you're holding a camera, etc. 
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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #44 on: November 15, 2013, 06:53:31 AM »