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Author Topic: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected  (Read 15983 times)

symmar22

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #60 on: November 15, 2013, 11:31:08 AM »


It's to admit that Canon hasn't released anything very exciting this year (except maybe the 200-400mm, but how may of us will actually buy it ?), and a few new products on the market is always good to take. IMO all the ranting shows mainly the frustration of some people who cannot accept that these days, creativity is not on the side of the brand they support. The A7R might not be for everyone, but for me it will probably be the camera that finally replaces my 5D2s.

I'm into architecture and landscape, I've been doing it for years with a 4x5 Linhof, and couldn't care less about AF or frame rate. What I need is a new sensor, and fact is Canon is not able to deliver it. They may in 2015, but I am not holding my breath for a 7000$ 1Dx HD. Until they have something affordable and available (5D4 in 2016 ?), the A7R might be the camera that will fill the void.  With the lens adapter it will cost roughly the price of a 5D3, but in my case it will actually be an upgrade (contrary to the 5D3). The size of the camera compared to the lenses is irrelevant on my Gitzos. And it seems it will be a nice companion to my TS-E collection.

Instead of dismissing every technical progress because it doesn't have Canon written on it, I prefer to adapt and use the tools available, WHOEVER makes them.

I could link this to the Nikon Df, it is nice to see something different (if not new). I am sure Canon would have released a retro styled (A-1) digital camera similar to the Df, it would have been the pride of this forum. But as it's Nikon who released it, it can only be worthless.

These days there is much more excitement with Canon who repainted a 100D in white. That is some real exciting new product. Nice move Canon.

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #60 on: November 15, 2013, 11:31:08 AM »

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #61 on: November 15, 2013, 11:44:20 AM »
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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #62 on: November 15, 2013, 12:39:57 PM »
IMO all the ranting shows mainly the frustration of some people who cannot accept that these days, creativity is not on the side of the brand they support...Instead of dismissing every technical progress because it doesn't have Canon written on it, I prefer to adapt and use the tools available, WHOEVER makes them.

I could link this to the Nikon Df, it is nice to see something different (if not new). I am sure Canon would have released a retro styled (A-1) digital camera similar to the Df, it would have been the pride of this forum. But as it's Nikon who released it, it can only be worthless.

I don't think you are reading the same forum that I am reading.

Any product that is introduced, you generally have three groups on this forum.

The "every other brand is better than Canon" people who extol the virtues of every product offered by every other manufacturer and complain bitterly that Canon is behind the times.

The "Canon is always best" group that insists that Canon products are always superior, no matter what.

Finally, the group that falls somewhere in the middle. They prefer Canon for any number of reasons. Are generally satisfied with the product offerings, but are anxiously anticipating the next generation of any product line. They don't get too worked up about new products from competitors, but recognize that technology releases tend to leap frog one another. One product may be ahead for awhile, but then another product comes along and leap frogs over that one.

One day, they may be highly critical of Canon. The next, they may be ripping into Nikon or Sony.

The vast majority of people on this forum fall into that third group – each with their own personal perspective. Most have a built-in bias towards Canon (this is a Canon forum after all), but try to keep some perspective.
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symmar22

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #63 on: November 15, 2013, 01:38:45 PM »
Maybe it's me then, I am a Canon user as well and am not logged on any other brand forum, but I can feel a tendency to defend Canon with sometimes biased arguments.

I do not take for granted they are better or worse than others, they just make photo equipment (among other things). I read a lot of "it's crappy, it's ugly it's a useless stuff" about the Sony camera, I am just pointing out that this is for one a real novelty, and that Canon has not been the most creative lately.

I will take this camera for what it is, a possible upgrade from my 5D2s for architecture and landscape use. IMO we should be happy that other brands (in this case Sony and Metabones) can offer us some alternatives to what Canon is not able to deliver.

Maybe am I a bit too old, but coming from the 4x5 camera systems, where you can use any lens with any camera, I welcome the change that finally allows the same with digital cameras. IMO it is a healthy move from the closed systems big companies have been imposing for pure marketing purposes.

Mirrorless cameras allow almost infinite lens/cameras combinations, this is IMO a good reason to consider them.

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #64 on: November 15, 2013, 03:00:16 PM »
New products like the A7 & Nikon DF are great for the market.
It keeps digital photography alive, and it should push Canon to offer competing products soon.
I'm sure they're well aware of the fact that they can no longer sit on old sensor technology, ignore the mirrorless market, and deny experimenting with retro inspired cameras.

I almost bought into the hype of the A7's.  The high megapixels allow for more cropping and detail, their images (from nex and Rx1) can look textured and real, but sony's images look sometimes too digital to me.  Not saying that it's bad, but I prefer a more canon filmic look.  Fuji has their own unique filmic look as well, which is why I am getting more interested in fuji products now.  And this is also because I shoot people portraits / fine art / and street photography.  Currently, for landscape, (or super detailed work) there is probably no denying that the Sony 36mp sensor is the best.

Using canon glass on the A7 seems slow and cumbersome, in addition to quirks of the camera's handling (although I have yet to fully shoot it) the camera might get in the way of my shooting style. I need to stay in a flow.  Finally, I am not interested in any of Sony's initial native lenses, and by the time their catalogue has better choices by 2015 (according to their tentative road map) the market will have changed drastically by then - we'll definitely see some amazing stuff from Canon and other brands.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 03:56:31 PM by Renaissance »
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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #65 on: November 15, 2013, 05:32:01 PM »
And while Canon is criticized for "refusing" to deliver more DR, it is Nikon and Sony that are failing to deliver video performance to match that of the 5D3.

Which is why you keep your 5D3 for sports and video and buy the A7R for your landscapes. If Canon were update to date with sensors you'd just buy the one Canon but they aren't so you add the A7R.

(also 5D3 only rules for video mostly because of the ML hack, so while Canon engineers did make a camera that delivers video in spades, marketing or someone had it shipped pretty crippled; it is surprising that Sony punts so badly on video though I will add, if anyone should have that down it should be them).

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #66 on: November 15, 2013, 05:35:38 PM »
The A7 and A7r I really don't get however.  If you just want 30+ MP and/or greater DR than Canon offers, buy a D800(E).  At least you will have a large selection of lenses available and know the manufacturer won't abandon you by moving on to a new lens mount or IBIS in a few months.

Maybe because with the D800 you have to commit to 100% swapping systems right now. Give up the better Canon video, the Canon 24-70 II and 17 and 24 T&S and 70-300L and MPE, nicer UI, etc. With the A7R you don't.

If you are a Canon user you are getting it for the MP/DR for landscapes most likely. You are not replacing your 5D3 or 1DX or 7D with this, it's a supplement. A hack to get the DR Canon refuses to deliver to so far.


I wasn't trying to advocate switching to Nikon, just making the point that if somebody was determined to chase the MP/DR of the Sony FF sensor, Nikon is probably a better choice than Sony.  Until its proven that Canon glass works extremely well with the A7/A7r, I'll remain skeptical.

Some guy was already posting 17mm T&S shift shots with it sharp to the edges.
And by most regards the canon 24-70 II is much sharper at the edges than the nikon 24-70.
As a complete system yeah the Nikon, but for a Canon user that makes a lot less sense to me. Why spend tons and tons more when you could jsut use superior canon lenses onthe same sensor with the A7R instead and still get top canon video and what if canon comes out with high dr stuff in 12 months? the a7r buys you time instead of swapping over right away.

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #66 on: November 15, 2013, 05:35:38 PM »

zlatko

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #67 on: November 15, 2013, 08:42:30 PM »
And while Canon is criticized for "refusing" to deliver more DR, it is Nikon and Sony that are failing to deliver video performance to match that of the 5D3.

Which is why you keep your 5D3 for sports and video and buy the A7R for your landscapes. If Canon were update to date with sensors you'd just buy the one Canon but they aren't so you add the A7R.

(also 5D3 only rules for video mostly because of the ML hack, so while Canon engineers did make a camera that delivers video in spades, marketing or someone had it shipped pretty crippled; it is surprising that Sony punts so badly on video though I will add, if anyone should have that down it should be them).

The A7R will be great for landscapes, and will no doubt provide more detail for very large prints.  However, you don't need an A7R for landscapes.  Starting in 2008, Salgado used the previous generation 1DS3 to photograph landscapes and other subjects in Algeria, Alaska, Arizona, Brazil, etc.  The result is a magnificent book.  As early as 2002, Michael Reichmann (Luminous-Landscape.com) favored the original 1DS over the medium format Pentax 67II.  So Canon sensors have been up to the task of landscape photography for quite some time.  DR is just one of many factors in choosing a landscape camera.

The Camera labs review (http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Sony_Alpha_A7r/) of the A7 & A7R is pretty clear on the 5D3 having superior video quality.  No Magic Lantern is involved in that conclusion.

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #68 on: November 15, 2013, 08:56:36 PM »
And while Canon is criticized for "refusing" to deliver more DR, it is Nikon and Sony that are failing to deliver video performance to match that of the 5D3.

Which is why you keep your 5D3 for sports and video and buy the A7R for your landscapes. If Canon were update to date with sensors you'd just buy the one Canon but they aren't so you add the A7R.

(also 5D3 only rules for video mostly because of the ML hack, so while Canon engineers did make a camera that delivers video in spades, marketing or someone had it shipped pretty crippled; it is surprising that Sony punts so badly on video though I will add, if anyone should have that down it should be them).

The A7R will be great for landscapes, and will no doubt provide more detail for very large prints.  However, you don't need an A7R for landscapes.  Starting in 2008, Salgado used the previous generation 1DS3 to photograph landscapes and other subjects in Algeria, Alaska, Arizona, Brazil, etc.  The result is a magnificent book.  As early as 2002, Michael Reichmann (Luminous-Landscape.com) favored the original 1DS over the medium format Pentax 67II.  So Canon sensors have been up to the task of landscape photography for quite some time.  DR is just one of many factors in choosing a landscape camera.

Yes, once again nobody said it's impossible to take amazing landscape shots with a 5D3, of course you can, hundreds and thousands and millions of them. THAT SAID, there are tons of shots that you also could have taken that would have worked out with Exmor sensor that either failed totally with the 5D3 or have some noticeable IQ nasties. Maybe some of us, heaven forbid, are excited to get to shoot some of those scenes, stuff nobody could ever pull off well before, well???

Quote
The Camera labs review (http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Sony_Alpha_A7r/) of the A7 & A7R is pretty clear on the 5D3 having superior video quality.  No Magic Lantern is involved in that conclusion.

Yeah but the advantage becomes smaller then. D800 video is actually more details and with more range, although with some more moire and aliasing than stock 5D3 video. 1DX in cam video is pretty good, better good for sure than any from Nikon or Sony. 5D3 with ML RAW is pretty awesome to say the least. One wonders what on earth canon did to the signal between it arriving for liveview and before compression (it is NOT bad compression that is hurting it as uncompressed out over HDMI doesn't help at all), you almost wonder if they don't call a C-line protecting subroutine that says like GaussianBlur() followed by KillDR() and then, for good measure, a MakeTightGrainIntoDigitalClumpyNoise() ;D since ML RAW proves that the HW is actually producing vastly better quality and clean HDMI proves it is not the compression chip mucking things up. Either marketing had them cripple it or the Digic chip simply stinks at processing video.


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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #69 on: November 15, 2013, 10:45:57 PM »
And while Canon is criticized for "refusing" to deliver more DR, it is Nikon and Sony that are failing to deliver video performance to match that of the 5D3.

Which is why you keep your 5D3 for sports and video and buy the A7R for your landscapes. If Canon were update to date with sensors you'd just buy the one Canon but they aren't so you add the A7R.

(also 5D3 only rules for video mostly because of the ML hack, so while Canon engineers did make a camera that delivers video in spades, marketing or someone had it shipped pretty crippled; it is surprising that Sony punts so badly on video though I will add, if anyone should have that down it should be them).

The A7R will be great for landscapes, and will no doubt provide more detail for very large prints.  However, you don't need an A7R for landscapes.  Starting in 2008, Salgado used the previous generation 1DS3 to photograph landscapes and other subjects in Algeria, Alaska, Arizona, Brazil, etc.  The result is a magnificent book.  As early as 2002, Michael Reichmann (Luminous-Landscape.com) favored the original 1DS over the medium format Pentax 67II.  So Canon sensors have been up to the task of landscape photography for quite some time.  DR is just one of many factors in choosing a landscape camera.

Yes, once again nobody said it's impossible to take amazing landscape shots with a 5D3, of course you can, hundreds and thousands and millions of them. THAT SAID, there are tons of shots that you also could have taken that would have worked out with Exmor sensor that either failed totally with the 5D3 or have some noticeable IQ nasties. Maybe some of us, heaven forbid, are excited to get to shoot some of those scenes, stuff nobody could ever pull off well before, well???

Quote
The Camera labs review (http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Sony_Alpha_A7r/) of the A7 & A7R is pretty clear on the 5D3 having superior video quality.  No Magic Lantern is involved in that conclusion.

Yeah but the advantage becomes smaller then. D800 video is actually more details and with more range, although with some more moire and aliasing than stock 5D3 video. 1DX in cam video is pretty good, better good for sure than any from Nikon or Sony. 5D3 with ML RAW is pretty awesome to say the least. One wonders what on earth canon did to the signal between it arriving for liveview and before compression (it is NOT bad compression that is hurting it as uncompressed out over HDMI doesn't help at all), you almost wonder if they don't call a C-line protecting subroutine that says like GaussianBlur() followed by KillDR() and then, for good measure, a MakeTightGrainIntoDigitalClumpyNoise() ;D since ML RAW proves that the HW is actually producing vastly better quality and clean HDMI proves it is not the compression chip mucking things up. Either marketing had them cripple it or the Digic chip simply stinks at processing video.

"THAT SAID, there are tons of shots that you also could have taken that would have worked out with Exmor sensor that either failed totally with the 5D3 or have some noticeable IQ nasties." — That is your theory.  It's not supported by actual photos, let alone "tons" of them.  And I'm talking about actual photos, not DxO tests.  My point — that Canon sensors have been up to the task of landscape photography for years — is proven by actual work by real photographers.

"Either marketing had them cripple it or the Digic chip simply stinks at processing video."  — It is amazing that when faced with a review showing Canon's superior video performance, you still come up with a Canon-bashing theory, blaming their marketing and/or their technology.

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #70 on: November 16, 2013, 02:56:36 AM »
Why spend tons and tons more when you could jsut use superior canon lenses onthe same sensor with the A7R instead and still get top canon video and what if canon comes out with high dr stuff in 12 months? the a7r buys you time instead of swapping over right away.
Good point.
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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #71 on: November 16, 2013, 05:07:21 AM »
oO ... Handling seems to have some nasty flaws. Especially the EV-correction wheel being too loose sounds really troublesome, since there is no user fix or workaround for this.

 And A7 hybrid AF being less capable than A7R contrast-AF comes rather unexpected too. Lets see what other testers and new owners will find and report.

http://m.dpreview.com/news/2013/11/15/shooting-with-the-sony-alpha-7-and-alpha-7r

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #72 on: November 16, 2013, 05:46:38 AM »
It's to admit that Canon hasn't released anything very exciting this year (except maybe the 200-400mm, but how may of us will actually buy it ?), and a few new products on the market is always good to take. IMO all the ranting shows mainly the frustration of some people who cannot accept that these days, creativity is not on the side of the brand they support. The A7R might not be for everyone, but for me it will probably be the camera that finally replaces my 5D2s.

The sensor in the 70D is very exciting. Its just not aimed at landscape photographers. Canon may have decided that hobbyist and wedding photographers are a more important market. It is also possible that they have the DR but are saving it for the next gen 1D or 5D.

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #72 on: November 16, 2013, 05:46:38 AM »

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #73 on: November 16, 2013, 10:01:28 AM »
oO ... Handling seems to have some nasty flaws. Especially the EV-correction wheel being too loose sounds really troublesome, since there is no user fix or workaround for this.

 And A7 hybrid AF being less capable than A7R contrast-AF comes rather unexpected too. Lets see what other testers and new owners will find and report.

http://m.dpreview.com/news/2013/11/15/shooting-with-the-sony-alpha-7-and-alpha-7r

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #74 on: November 16, 2013, 04:51:21 PM »
And while Canon is criticized for "refusing" to deliver more DR, it is Nikon and Sony that are failing to deliver video performance to match that of the 5D3.

Which is why you keep your 5D3 for sports and video and buy the A7R for your landscapes. If Canon were update to date with sensors you'd just buy the one Canon but they aren't so you add the A7R.

(also 5D3 only rules for video mostly because of the ML hack, so while Canon engineers did make a camera that delivers video in spades, marketing or someone had it shipped pretty crippled; it is surprising that Sony punts so badly on video though I will add, if anyone should have that down it should be them).

The A7R will be great for landscapes, and will no doubt provide more detail for very large prints.  However, you don't need an A7R for landscapes.  Starting in 2008, Salgado used the previous generation 1DS3 to photograph landscapes and other subjects in Algeria, Alaska, Arizona, Brazil, etc.  The result is a magnificent book.  As early as 2002, Michael Reichmann (Luminous-Landscape.com) favored the original 1DS over the medium format Pentax 67II.  So Canon sensors have been up to the task of landscape photography for quite some time.  DR is just one of many factors in choosing a landscape camera.

Yes, once again nobody said it's impossible to take amazing landscape shots with a 5D3, of course you can, hundreds and thousands and millions of them. THAT SAID, there are tons of shots that you also could have taken that would have worked out with Exmor sensor that either failed totally with the 5D3 or have some noticeable IQ nasties. Maybe some of us, heaven forbid, are excited to get to shoot some of those scenes, stuff nobody could ever pull off well before, well???

Quote
The Camera labs review (http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Sony_Alpha_A7r/) of the A7 & A7R is pretty clear on the 5D3 having superior video quality.  No Magic Lantern is involved in that conclusion.

Yeah but the advantage becomes smaller then. D800 video is actually more details and with more range, although with some more moire and aliasing than stock 5D3 video. 1DX in cam video is pretty good, better good for sure than any from Nikon or Sony. 5D3 with ML RAW is pretty awesome to say the least. One wonders what on earth canon did to the signal between it arriving for liveview and before compression (it is NOT bad compression that is hurting it as uncompressed out over HDMI doesn't help at all), you almost wonder if they don't call a C-line protecting subroutine that says like GaussianBlur() followed by KillDR() and then, for good measure, a MakeTightGrainIntoDigitalClumpyNoise() ;D since ML RAW proves that the HW is actually producing vastly better quality and clean HDMI proves it is not the compression chip mucking things up. Either marketing had them cripple it or the Digic chip simply stinks at processing video.

"THAT SAID, there are tons of shots that you also could have taken that would have worked out with Exmor sensor that either failed totally with the 5D3 or have some noticeable IQ nasties." — That is your theory.  It's not supported by actual photos, let alone "tons" of them.  And I'm talking about actual photos, not DxO tests.  My point — that Canon sensors have been up to the task of landscape photography for years — is proven by actual work by real photographers.

OMG yes we all know you can take amazing landscape shots with a 5D3 and you don't have to own an A7R to take a nice landscape shot but that doesn't mean there are not shots where the A7R wouldn't do a lot better, and that is not some dumb theory we have based on some stupid lab nonsense but from our own countless real world hours in the field, and maybe just maybe given the option some people would rather not pass up some of the shots that push the 5D3 and kind too far? OK? But I guess heaven forbid someone want to take some shots that didn't use to be possible before because they have to become sinners and use a body that doesn't say Canon on it. Apparently even if they still use Canon branded lenses that is not enough for you.

You know people managed to get a few sports shots years ago too so by your logic why should anyone buy a 1DX? Because it says Canon on it? I guess so, because the AF and fps and whatnot are obviously of no worth at all right? No? Well then maybe stop to think it can be the same for landscape stuff too.

Yes we know, and we've said you can take millions of perfectly find landscapes shots with a 5D3, but that doesn't mean that someone might not be able to get something extra out of the A7R compared to the 5D3 at times and if someone wants that what the heck is the big problem? That Canon is not stamped on every last pieces of equipment?


Quote
"Either marketing had them cripple it or the Digic chip simply stinks at processing video."  — It is amazing that when faced with a review showing Canon's superior video performance, you still come up with a Canon-bashing theory, blaming their marketing and/or their technology.

Check out the serious video/film forums and you'll see the same comments. Compare clean HDMI out vs ML RAW and tell me there isn't a radically difference in quality even beyond the extra bits to deal with. And maybe if you didn't fanboy so much you wouldn't egg people on to sound like anti-fanboys.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2013, 06:46:46 PM by LetTheRightLensIn »

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Re: Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected
« Reply #74 on: November 16, 2013, 04:51:21 PM »