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Author Topic: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]  (Read 40522 times)

Rick

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Huge Mistake Dear Canon
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2013, 09:56:05 AM »
A 1 series body with the traditonal 1 series size, weight & price tag will sell like cold hotcakes. If Canon intends to release a 5D3 X, then okay, maybe Canon isn't as stupid as I am thinking they are right now. Canon has been steadily leaking users to the D800E and now most likely to the A7r. This will be tantamount to the damn breaking.

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Huge Mistake Dear Canon
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2013, 09:56:05 AM »

Orangutan

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2013, 10:17:56 AM »
Like I said before. Canon's "Answer" to the Nikon D800 (and future D900, and the Sony A7R) will come as a big bulky elephant sized 1D-body, with a price tag that most people can't touch.

Ok, then...but what are Nikon and Sony's "Answers" to the 5DIII, which has outsold the D800 and will vastly outsell the a7R?   ::)

Why do people think Canon needs to play Nikon's game?  The D800 was Nikon's attempt to play the game by Canon's rules (we'll see your 8-9 MP increase, and raise you by another 14 MP), and Nikon lost.
When someone attacks a Canon body, you always resort to raw sales. That'S not very interesting.

We would all like to have a perfect, no-compromise body, having all components leading-edge, straight out of R&D, and using most current fab processes.  Such a camera would be either unaffordable or unprofitable or both.  The reason for the "raw sales" argument is to reiterate, yet again, that all manufacturers make compromises to keep their products profitable (not just the body, but the whole line).  Nikon made compromises on the D800 (and D600), Canon makes compromises on their bodies.  Those who are willing to accept the D800 compromises complain that Canon didn't make the same compromises (and the reverse is also true).

The "raw sales" argument is to remind you (and all the other D800 salivators) that not everyone will choose the same compromises and, in fact, you may be in the minority.   Yes, yes: we can always argue about whether Canon's sales successes are entirely due to marketing, but I find it hard to believe that Nikon's marketing is completely incompetent.

In short, the "raw sales" argument means Canon (and Nikon and Pentax and Sony and...) are businesses who are trying to make a buck, they are not interested in creating your perfect body.

Yes, that's much more interesting than complaining that Canon won't sell a $10,000 "perfect" camera for $2,500.

arbitrage

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2013, 10:20:57 AM »
Be prepared for the first $10,000 body that isn't in the cinema lineup. :o :(
7D\5D2\5D3\1D4\1DX\600II\300II\200-400Lw1.4TC\100-400\100L\24-105\17-40\24-70II\70-200f/2.8LISII\40pancake\Bower14f/2.8\Fuji XE-2\Fuji 18-55\Fuji23f/1.4\RRS34L\BH-55\and a bunch of other stuff.

distant.star

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2013, 10:21:48 AM »
.
This is what I'd call the "Canon stretch."

While the camera was announced (Hey, we've got a great camera we're going to sell next year!!!) in October 2011, it was not generally released for at least six months. As I recall, it was late spring last year when the 1DX finally went from breathless fantasy to reality.

Given their history I'd suggest you may be "sorely looking forward" for a long, long time.


The 1D X marked its 25th month and I am sorely looking forward to its replacement next year.
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Orangutan

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Re: Huge Mistake Dear Canon
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2013, 10:21:56 AM »
A 1 series body with the traditonal 1 series size, weight & price tag will sell like cold hotcakes.

According to sales figures, their market research team has been doing an excellent job of predicting the market.  No, I won't buy a 1-series body, but lots of others will.


Quote
Canon has been steadily leaking users to the D800E

Citation?  Or is this just your unsubstantiated opinion?

distant.star

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2013, 10:26:45 AM »
Why do people think Canon needs to play Nikon's game?  The D800 was Nikon's attempt to play the game by Canon's rules (we'll see your 8-9 MP increase, and raise you by another 14 MP), and Nikon lost.

I've long said most people seem to give Nikon more credit than they deserve for influencing Canon. Certainly Canon takes them into some consideration in their product decisions, but I believe there are many factors they take far more seriously than what Nikon may or may not be doing.

For Canon, I think Nikon is really no more than the neighbor's noisy dog.
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neuroanatomist

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2013, 10:34:52 AM »
When someone attacks a Canon body, you always resort to raw sales. That'S not very interesting.

The point of citing sales figures is that profit is the primary driver for publicly-traded companies like Canon and Nikon, and what they care about is developing products that will sell well and provide a return on investment, not products that will please a minority segment of the market that happens to be very vocal on internet forums. 

You may not find it interesting, but that's the reality of business...and the reality that determines what products are available to purchase (or in some cases, products that people have no intention of purchasing, but choose to complain about anyway).   

I'd also suggest that elaborating on a rational viewpoint is more interesting than a weak, one-line 'refutation'. 
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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2013, 10:34:52 AM »

docsmith

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2013, 10:37:31 AM »
Like I said before. Canon's "Answer" to the Nikon D800 (and future D900, and the Sony A7R) will come as a big bulky elephant sized 1D-body, with a price tag that most people can't touch.

Ok, then...but what are Nikon and Sony's "Answers" to the 5DIII, which has outsold the D800 and will vastly outsell the a7R?   ::)

Why do people think Canon needs to play Nikon's game?  The D800 was Nikon's attempt to play the game by Canon's rules (we'll see your 8-9 MP increase, and raise you by another 14 MP), and Nikon lost.
When someone attacks a Canon body, you always resort to raw sales. That'S not very interesting.

Ugh...what isn't interesting is debating two excellent camera bodies......


AvTvM

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2013, 10:42:47 AM »
When someone attacks a Canon body, you always resort to raw sales. That'S not very interesting.
The point of citing sales figures is that profit is the primary driver for publicly-traded companies like Canon and Nikon, and what they care about is developing products that will sell well and provide a return on investment, not products that will please a minority segment of the market that happens to be very vocal on internet forums. 

You did not answer the question: do you have specific sales numbers for Nikon D800/E and 5D III?
My personal guess is, that Nikon sold more D800/E. 

And generally, no need to be oh so concerned about Canon's sales numbers and profits. They got boatloads of managers and employees taking care of that.  ;-)

If Canon made fully competitive products in terms of performance and value to us, their customers, we would be happy and their sales and profits would also in great shape, rather than nosediving. 
« Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 11:03:24 AM by AvTvM »

Don Haines

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2013, 10:49:03 AM »
When someone attacks a Canon body, you always resort to raw sales. That'S not very interesting.

The point of citing sales figures is that profit is the primary driver for publicly-traded companies like Canon and Nikon, and what they care about is developing products that will sell well and provide a return on investment, not products that will please a minority segment of the market that happens to be very vocal on internet forums. 

You may not find it interesting, but that's the reality of business...and the reality that determines what products are available to purchase (or in some cases, products that people have no intention of purchasing, but choose to complain about anyway).   

I'd also suggest that elaborating on a rational viewpoint is more interesting than a weak, one-line 'refutation'.

Also, sales price is not determined by how cheap you can make an item, but to maximize profit....Let's say it costs $1000 to build a camera. If they market it at $1100 the might sell 10,000 bodies for a profit of $1,000,000. The same body at $1500 might only sell 5000 copies, but the profit would be $2,500,000. Canon has marketing people devoted to finding the best point for profit.
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V8Beast

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2013, 11:13:49 AM »

Ok, then...but what are Nikon and Sony's "Answers" to the 5DIII, which has outsold the D800 and will vastly outsell the a7R?   ::)

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KyleSTL

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2013, 11:16:57 AM »
... This camera will be Canon’s first foray into the high megapixel realm for a DSLR.
What is your definition of high megapixel?  Back in 2002 when the 1Ds was announced, 11MP was a lot compared to most other DSLRs at 6 or less, and most P&S cameras less than 5MP.  In 2005 16MP was considered 'high resolution' (1Ds Mark II).  Same with 21MP in 2007 with the 1Ds Mark III.

I completely understand what you are saying, but it's not like Canon has never been competitive on the MP front, as they have definitely worn the megapixel crown a few times.  Now in the modern era (since Sept 2009) they have constantly lagged behind Nikon and Sony with full frame cameras (21MP vs 24; 22 vs 36), but lead in the APS-C lines from Sept 2009 through August 2011 with the 18MP sensors, until being superceded by Sony's 24MP sensor in the A65 and A77.
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AmbientLight

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2013, 11:24:34 AM »
On this matter I am highly optimistic that the upcoming high MP Canon 1Dsomething will be exactly what I want: A more modern form of 1Ds Mark III.

I don't want a 5D-style body nor do I care for lowering price and functionality. I simply want the best Canon can come up with. It is very interesting to read that supposedly this new camera is intended to outdo Nikon's upcoming D4x.

This will promise a very nice, highly optimized, feature rich product, where Canon will hopefully go all-out with what their technology can currently deliver. This will be nice to see and even nicer to use. 8)

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2013, 11:24:34 AM »

Woody

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2013, 11:28:08 AM »
You did not answer the question: do you have specific sales numbers for Nikon D800/E and 5D III?
My personal guess is, that Nikon sold more D800/E. 

If you had followed the sales trend for the D800 vs 5D3 on US Amazon charts, you'll notice D800 took the lead initially with 5D3 trailing just slightly behind. Now, the 5D3 is in the top 10 while the D800 is nowhere positioned in the top 30 DSLR. Give it another year. If you see the same pattern emerging in mid-2014, you can be quite certain the 5D3 has completely trounced the D800 in sales.

In case you wanna argue it's all about pricing, I can assure you that's not the important factor at play. Rather it's the poor factory QC that killed the D800 sales. Check out the customer reviews: (i) for 5D3 - out of 327 reviews, 278 were 5-stars and 31 were 4-stars (ii) for D800 - out of 309 reviews, 189 were 5-stars and 26 were 4-stars. Pretty big difference there. Remember the left side focus problems with a number of copies of the D800? That's just one example.

You'll see similar sales trends for 6D vs D600 (remember the Nikon factory debris issue), 5D2 vs D700 (well it's 21 vs 12 MP) etc.

The single biggest advantage that Canon has over Nikon etc is the massive success they achieved during the early DSLR years. Canon had such a commanding lead with the release of their sub-$1000 DRebel 300D (despite all the fanboy attacks on its poor AF capabilities, relatively smooth high ISO performance etc) that the competition has never been able to match, not even today.

neuroanatomist

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2013, 11:30:35 AM »
You did not answer the question: do you have specific sales numbers for Nikon D800/E and 5D III?
My personal guess is, that Nikon sold more D800/E. 

As you're well aware, neither company publishes model-specific sales numbers.  Beyond looking at Amazon.com's rankings (which may differ from other regions of the world, but the US is the largest single market), consider the following, from the horses' mouths, so to speak:

In a recent Q&A document, Nikon revised their forecast for dSLR production downward, and stated that sales of entry-level dSLRs are 'skyrocketing'.  If the latter is true, what market segment is not meeting sales expectations?

Meanwhile, Canon recently stated, "Within the Imaging System Business Unit, sales of the EOS 5D Mark III, 6D and 70D advanced amateur model interchangeable lens digital cameras continued to grow.

From that, a reasonable inference is that Nikon's high-end consumer dSLR production is declining, and Canon's high-end consumer dSLR sales are growing. Thus, I infer that your personal guess is wrong.   :P
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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2013, 11:30:35 AM »