May 23, 2018, 01:15:01 PM

Author Topic: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]  (Read 100423 times)

privatebydesign

  • Canon EF 800mm f/5.6L IS
  • ***********
  • Posts: 6859
  • Would you take advice from a cartoons stuffed toy?
Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #180 on: November 24, 2013, 12:07:37 AM »
I Concur. He hasn't posted any photography on a photography forum. :P

It isn't, primarily, a photography forum, it is, predominantly, a one photography (and video) manufacturer equipment rumor forum. And there is nothing wrong with that, though like eml58 points out, if you are not a Canon aficionado there would seem to be several billion things better served with your time.

I am a frequent illustrative image poster, but that is all I am interested in displaying at CR. All power to those that do propagate the various lens and body specific image galleries though, there are some truly superb images here.
Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #180 on: November 24, 2013, 12:07:37 AM »

sanj

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *********
  • Posts: 3006
Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #181 on: November 24, 2013, 01:31:26 AM »
I Concur. He hasn't posted any photography on a photography forum. :P

It isn't, primarily, a photography forum, it is, predominantly, a one photography (and video) manufacturer equipment rumor forum. And there is nothing wrong with that, though like eml58 points out, if you are not a Canon aficionado there would seem to be several billion things better served with your time.

I am a frequent illustrative image poster, but that is all I am interested in displaying at CR. All power to those that do propagate the various lens and body specific image galleries though, there are some truly superb images here.

Yes, I come here for the rumors first, gear talk second, humor 3rd, photos by the way and last but not the least the cynicism.  Serious!

Eldar

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *********
  • Posts: 3239
    • Flickr
Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #182 on: November 24, 2013, 02:34:44 AM »
Developing, manufacturing and marketing innovative imaging gear may be a challenging task but it is still a fairly trivialenterptise compared to "rocket science", space ships and colonies on the moon. So i think, we should not use these as relevant comparisons.
I know this grumping does not deserve more space on CR, but one last;

Your statement is actually wrong. Not to say that making a space ship is trivial, but in some areas it is a lot easier than producing a state of the art camera body.

To send a space ship to the moon takes 1, ONE, working space ship. For space shuttles they make a few. The market is as close to a monopoly as it gets. To succeed in the camera world, you have to produce thousands of equal quality and sell them in a very competitive market.

The majority of components in a space ship has been developed, qualified and industrialized for other applications. The use of electronics components and the electronics production methods applied in a space ship are actually very conservative, because of the environment it will operate, whereas a camera producer needs to use the latest state-of-the-art components and production methods available to be competitive.

A lot of the components in a space ship is handmade and verified as individuals, through lots of costly and energy consuming testing procedures. A challenge for a camera body producer is to bring it from a working pre production model to be produced in fully automated, high volume production lines with consistent quality and high yield.

A space ship is developed with very long lead times, on budgets of astronomical proportions, delivered by companies on cost-plus type contracts. A commercial enterprise has to develop their products within the R&D budgets available and all sub suppliers are on fixed price contracts. And the life span for a product generation is less than 3 years.

When I worked in Ericsson, making cell phones, we had the next generation models as fully working models long before we released the prior generation to the market. There is no reason to believe the situation is different for a camera producer.

Look at the car industry. If you go to a car shows you´ll see fully working stunning models that may become the next generation cars and we wonder when we can buy one. Only to learn that it may be a production volume car in 5 years time and when they finally become production models, they don´t look so gorgeous, because the model was handmade and did not have to take the limitations given by a volume production situation into consideration.

So, yes its is not the same challenge to make a new camera as making a space ship. In many ways it is actually tougher. Concluding that a company is slow and non-inventive because their off the shelf products does not include something you read in a 2-3 year old patent paper or a technology prototype you heard of, just shows ignorance.

I suggest you show us some of your images, so we can see how Canon´s crappy technology prevents you from producing acceptable images. Maybe some of the excellent photographers on this forum could help you improve.


« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 02:36:15 AM by Eldar »

Diko

  • EOS 6D Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 409
  • 7 fps...
Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #183 on: November 24, 2013, 05:51:57 AM »
Given that the USPTO allowed RSA encryption (based on a mathematical formula) to be patented, it would be interesting to know what those patents covered and what the quality of them is. If Canon is anything like other companies then employees get a bonus for each patent, meaning that a lot of people focus on generating patents "just because." I know one guy that has the walls of his office covered in patent plaques, many of which are "just ideas" that never even got to prototype phase... would I say that he's a better innovator than someone with only one or two that have actually made it to products? Nope...
+1 mate!

INNOVATION is a MARKET GAMECHANGER

So:

1/ Jrista - WTF? Getting PR statment out of the company's website is bigger CRAP than anything else.

2/ Neuro - I said it last time: CANON has 3000 patents and some of them quite interesting, actually but 95% never put into real world application. INNOVATION is NOT = number of patents.

For the other you are right that I don't put into account the time to put a technology on the shelves....
However from my perspective you are naive. ;-)

So I guess we are both right to some extends as long as we are both making assumptions.

And NEURO, really how on earth did you come up with that comparison between NASA (a non-profit organization) and CANON?

3/ As AvTvM put it: it's all about
Quote
true innovation that we should rightfully expect from Canon as well as other suppliers of 21st century imaging gear.

And ... such innovative cameras might even be worth asking prices of up to 7000 USD/Euro that CaNikon today are charging for only marginally improved iterations of their age-old mirrorslappers.  :-)

4/ ELDAR... don't you remember 5D m3 Memory leaks issue and its perfected to death solution?

5/ Orangutan - exactly that white kiss got me into this discussion. What now? Is Canon a subsidiary of Apple? And due to that DSLR Yakuza small companies such as Lytro might provide TRUE INNOVATIONs but might as well not be able to ;-)

5/ 1DX ONLY true huge innovation is the FPS. ISO may be an advancement, but is also a trade off for DR. Everything else is iteration of an existing technology.

6/
When I worked in Ericsson, making cell phones, we had the next generation models as fully working models long before we released the prior generation to the market. There is no reason to believe the situation is different for a camera producer.

Look at the car industry. If you go to a car shows you´ll see fully working stunning models that may become the next generation cars and we wonder when we can buy one. Only to learn that it may be a production volume car in 5 years time and when they finally become production models, they don´t look so gorgeous, because the model was handmade and did not have to take the limitations given by a volume production situation into consideration.
Yeah as I said... NOW CANON maybe already has a 75 MP Dual Pix AF camera with at least 50K ISO... but most probably we will NOT see it before 2017 as a 1DX Mark 3.

7/ Of course it's business and it was the point all the time and NO: 1DX does NOT provide what I want... NIKON to some extends does. But all my glasses are CANON and I can't switch, because I will loose a good amount of money! Since it's business I am being blackmailed by CANON. Get the picture now?
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 05:58:43 AM by Diko »
Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.

AvTvM

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *********
  • Posts: 3165
Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #184 on: November 24, 2013, 06:27:55 AM »
he guys, relax. Don't worry ... not about me, my private life or my pictures ... they are fine. If there is something to be worried over, then it's the future of companies like Ericsson [ups, they're gone, Sony took over what was left of them], Nokia [ups, killed by Apple and Samsung; back to manufacturing finnish rubber boots again], Blackberry [ups, killed by Samsung and Apple] or for you older folk here SperryUnivac, Digital Equipment, Compaq and next up ... Canon and Nikon ... both not unlikely to end up as next takeover targets for some Chinese government fund, Russian oligarch or indian moneymaker ... like IBM/Lenovo, LandRover, Jaguar, Volvo and Saab;D

But I agree, let's cheer up a little and look at some nice images together.

So, what do ya think of these fellas here? They're the Sony A7/R development team. Do they look like it is "oh so difficult" to build a completely new camera?



Or do they rather look like they are having great fun developing a truly innovative new camera? And does solving a lot of technical challenges using some "out of the box thinking" make 'em smile? I have not yet seen a similar picture of Canon (or Nikon) camera designers and engineers ... maybe because they are kept chained to their lab desks in a Tokyo basement dungeon. Not being allowed to innovate but rather having to think all day long about how to hold back functionality and how to best marketing-cripple each and every "new" Canon EOS? Not many smiles there, understandably. Not much pride either. Look at the interview video with that poor Canon cinema head-honcho Mr. Onda. Cringing with shame when asked why Magic Lantern can offer Canon customers so much value that Canon is trying to visciously and greedily withhold from them.  http://www.canonrumors.com/2013/11/from-interbee-interview-with-the-head-of-cinema-eos/

These Sony fellas ... well, read a bit here what they think ... http://www.+++++++++++.com/interview-with-sony-a7-a7r-developers-faster-lenses-are-in-development

And have a look at their new camera. No mirrorslapping any more. Not big and bulky, but small and light but still very solidly built. "Full frame" 36x24mm sensor. Better than any sensor in any old Canon DSLR out there. 



Look at the size comparison ... unfortunately Canon 1D X is not available in this tool, but 5D III

Sony A7/R complete with viewfinder and FF sensor is not so much larger than the sadly-crippled Canon EOS.

Feel free to compare yourself: http://camerasize.com/compare/#488,312

It may be challenging to stuff an FF sensor plus assorted mechanics and electronics into a a big fat 7000+ USD/Euro mirrorslapper. These Sony guys managed to do it in a much smaller box, eliminating the mirrorslapper ... and had fun doing so. Creating the "first of its kind" new flagship mirrorless camera. Not at 7000 USD/€ but at *launch* prices of € 2099 and € 1499 ... even inclusive of 20%+ European VAT.  ;)

Actually, I fully expect to see the A7 body in some special offers at the "magical" € 999,- pricepoint any time soon. We are getting there already: http://www.+++++++++++.com/in-france-a7-for-eur-1-269-costs-less-than-high-end-aps-c-cameras/

And you know, to me at age 52 btw :-) ... this smells like the right spirit ... hell-raising ... all-out ... full-speed innovation ... maximum value for customer's money! It reminds me of something exactly 10 years ago ... you all remember it as well, don't ya ... THE DIGITAL REBEL ... Canon 2003 ... EOS 300D ... first digital mirrorslapper for less than a grand. Here we are again, 10 years later.

Canon? Last wake-up call! I consider it a shame for Canon not being the ones in the lead this time round. And I consider it a shame they are not even giving their customers existing unique-to-Canon technology in their 7000 USD/€ flagship cameras. Small, cheap but incredibly useful things, like a built-in radio speedlite RT-trigger or a super-intuitive eye-controlled AF-system.

So why should we be drooling over a 1D Xs sometime in 2014 which may have a sensor that finally catches up with what competitors have been offering for 2 years in terms of resolution and DR ... and little else, except maybe even more "video optimization"? Not very much compared to what Sony's got going at the moment, if you ask me.   

Of course, things are not all fine and dandy at Sony either . A7/R are remarkable cameras in many ways but still fall somewhat short in a number of critical areas. Battery charge is dismal, AF is not fast enough for action shots, shutter is noisy rather than completely silent and there are not many native lenses yet. BUT, they were innovative and they PIONEERED something. Those fellas in the pic above are most definitely already working long shifts on their next, even better camera. They will likely get access to Olympus' 5-axis in-body image-stabilizer technology and faster Contrast-AF implementation. :-) http://www.+++++++++++.com/sony-and-olympus-will-share-mirrorless-distribution-and-tech/ :-)

But most importantly: they look like they are enjoying innovation and are allowed to live it! I'd love to see some of that spirit at work at CaNikon. It would be good for us .. and even better for them. Good photographers like us :-) can take pictures with almost any gear. For CaNikon however it is about ... survival. :-)


PS: I have started selling off some Canon gear. Yesterday Sony A7/R have arrived were I live. I'll check 'em out this week. So I may have a little less time to post here. Not to wake up Canon and many here can go back to celebrate Canon high mass. :-)
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 11:42:07 AM by AvTvM »

neuroanatomist

  • CR GEEK
  • ***************
  • Posts: 22599
Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #185 on: November 24, 2013, 09:11:58 AM »
@ AvTvM, Diko, and others who believe themselves more knowledgable than Canon on how Canon should conduct their business:  Canon's goal, like all other publicly traded companies, is to attempt to provide value to shareholders (in some countries, it's more than a goal, it's a legal mandate).  Which optical and industrial company have you led, that either prospered or failed under your leadership, and gave you the experience to know more than Canon?

As for patents vs. innovation, if you're not doing R&D, there's nothing to patent.  At a fundamental level, the only things a business actually owns are its physical plant and its intellectual property. Is every patent the tungsten light bulb filament?  Of course not.  Is every patent intended to be a product?  No.

How about a patent for a ceramic lens barrel to reduce weight?  Useless?  Think it'll end up in an L-series lens someday soon?  Unlikely...but it's already been used in the lens that Canon made for the Subaru Telescope (even with the lighter barrel, the lens still weighs ~1,900 lbs).  The point is, not all of Canon's innovation is intended to be used in your next dSLR or lens.

But you guys go right on blasting Canon for not making your perfect camera (which I'm sure is different for each of you).  I'm sure the views of half-a-dozen or so Internet complainers will shift the course of a diversified $37B company.  ::)
EOS 1D X, EOS M6, lots of lenses
______________________________
Flickr | TDP Profile/Gear List

Woody

  • EOS 5DS R
  • ******
  • Posts: 1052
Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #186 on: November 24, 2013, 09:22:32 AM »
But most importantly: they look like they are enjoying innovation and are allowed to live it! I'd love to see some of that spirit at work at CaNikon. It would be good for us .. and even better for them. Good photographers like us :-) can take pictures with almost any gear. For CaNikon however it is about ... survival. :-)

Go ahead, enjoy your gear. I'm sure the A7R is a great camera.

But time will tell which company made the right choice. You know, Minolta came up with the first autofocus SLR camera... but where are they now? Conversely, Canon does not believe in 1" sensor, claiming 'once you go below APS-C the next logical size is 1/2.3 inch' - http://www.dpreview.com/articles/0336328811/cp-2013-interview-with-canons-masaya-maeda. And if you follow Amazon/BCN charts now, the RX100 is nowhere to be seen.

Canon and Nikon may not be at the forefront of technology, but they certainly instill more confidence in consumers than Sony, which is haemorrhaging financially.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 09:25:10 AM by Woody »

canon rumors FORUM

Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #186 on: November 24, 2013, 09:22:32 AM »

Eldar

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *********
  • Posts: 3239
    • Flickr
Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #187 on: November 24, 2013, 09:28:40 AM »
Is it possible to filter out unwanted posts from unwanted CR members? AcTvM & Diko, you would be filtered out fairly fast. Ignorant "besserwissers" don´t add value to anything anywhere! And if the images you posted represents the quality you have to offer, please keep them to yourself.

PS! Ericsson is very much alive and doing well. They went through a long term planned exit of the cell phone business, to focus on what they do well and where they still are world leaders.

neuroanatomist

  • CR GEEK
  • ***************
  • Posts: 22599
Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #188 on: November 24, 2013, 09:37:18 AM »
Is it possible to filter out unwanted posts from unwanted CR members?

Profile tab > Modify Profile sub-tab > Edit Buddies/Ignore list.
EOS 1D X, EOS M6, lots of lenses
______________________________
Flickr | TDP Profile/Gear List

Eldar

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *********
  • Posts: 3239
    • Flickr
Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #189 on: November 24, 2013, 09:46:38 AM »
Is it possible to filter out unwanted posts from unwanted CR members?

Profile tab > Modify Profile sub-tab > Edit Buddies/Ignore list.
Thanks, much appreciated :)

jrista

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *********
  • Posts: 5319
  • EOL
    • Nature Photography
Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #190 on: November 24, 2013, 01:47:10 PM »
he guys, relax. Don't worry ... not about me, my private life or my pictures ... they are fine.

Trust me, no one worries...


And have a look at their new camera. No mirrorslapping any more. Not big and bulky, but small and light but still very solidly built. "Full frame" 36x24mm sensor. Better than any sensor in any old Canon DSLR out there. 

You make the mistaken assumption that everyone wants Sony's small, ergonomically inferior body. I'll take a 5D III any day over the A7r body. Not everyone want's small. When it comes to ergonomic camera bodies, Canon is decades ahead of Sony, as they have had decades to respond to customer feedback and PERFECT their bodies. Light is not always a desirable trait, either...when using larger lenses, which is frequently the case with Canon users, a heavier body is critical to correctly counterbalancing the lens.



It may be challenging to stuff an FF sensor plus assorted mechanics and electronics into a a big fat 7000+ USD/Euro mirrorslapper. These Sony guys managed to do it in a much smaller box, eliminating the mirrorslapper ... and had fun doing so. Creating the "first of its kind" new flagship mirrorless camera. Not at 7000 USD/€ but at *launch* prices of € 2099 and € 1499 ... even inclusive of 20%+ European VAT.  ;)

A challenge has nothing to do with it. Fitting all those electronics into a small body isn't the point. On the contrary, making the body size large IS THE ENTIRE POINT. People who buy the 1D X WANT that large, comfortably fitting body and extra vertical grip. A lot of people actually BUY AN ADD ON GRIP when lesser camera models don't have one. Again, you are making an incorrect assumption, the assumption that everyone wants a super tiny camera body. Not everyone does.

In fact, for many photographers still today, a DSLR just isn't big enough. Many professional portrait photographers still use large format cameras for 4x5 and 8x10 film. Some famous architectural photographers still use large format 4x5 cameras. A LOT of phenomenally good landscape photographers still use large format cameras, usually 4x5, some even do 8x10. An increasing number of photographers are rediscovering relatively ancient forms of photography such as large wet plate collodion, which can be considerably larger than 8x10 in many cases, and some have even gone back to the original, daguerreotype. All of these forms of photography use cameras that are considerably larger and far more bulky than even the 1D X could ever aspire to.

It isn't about the size of the camera, my friend. It isn't even about the quality of the sensor. A sensor may not even be relevant! It is about whether the form of photography appeals to you, and whether the results satisfy you or not. No one could ever say tht a daguerreotype or wet plate made with a custom pinhole wood box camera could ever compare to the quality of a Sony A7r...but again...that isn't the point. I'd offer that a light sensitive copper plate can be worlds more artistic, each one an entirely unique piece of literal art, than anything any modern digital camera is capable of producing.

So, so what if Sony managed to "ingeniously" stuff a bunch of electronic camera parts into a smaller box. What the hell doe the size of the box have to do with photography? Nothing! Nothing at all! Never has, never will.


So why should we be drooling over a 1D Xs sometime in 2014 which may have a sensor that finally catches up with what competitors have been offering for 2 years in terms of resolution and DR ... and little else, except maybe even more "video optimization"? Not very much compared to what Sony's got going at the moment, if you ask me.   

Oh, geeze...a whole TWO YEARS! My gosh, that is such a LONG time! You seem to forget that Sony spent tens of billions of dollars investing in their fabs, researching this "new" technology, and even more money to put it into production and sell all their sensors to...well, everyone. Sony's debt rating is junk. They consumed far too much debt in far too short a time period. Their electronics division, including their CIS division, is hemorrhaging money.

It took YEARS for Sony to develop the technology they are now selling. And, they aren't even benefiting from it yet...it will take many more YEARS for them to get out from under the billions in high interest debt they still have before they can even profit from all this advanced new sensor technology.

Canon, on the other hand? In 2012 (the last full fiscal year we have data for), Canon sold $18 billion from their imaging division alone (out of the $35 billion in total revenues...that means more than HALF Canon's revenue benefited from their photography sales.) Their imaging division (photography) grow by 7.2% in 2012 yoy. Their customer satisfaction increased. Sales of that gigantic 1D X? Beyond expectations (they of course don't offer any specific numbers), and it was the most widely used camera at the Olympics (just as telling as specific numbers).



Of course, things are not all fine and dandy at Sony either . A7/R are remarkable cameras in many ways but still fall somewhat short in a number of critical areas. Battery charge is dismal, AF is not fast enough for action shots, shutter is noisy rather than completely silent and there are not many native lenses yet. BUT, they were innovative and they PIONEERED something. Those fellas in the pic above are most definitely already working long shifts on their next, even better camera. They will likely get access to Olympus' 5-axis in-body image-stabilizer technology and faster Contrast-AF implementation. :-) http://www.+++++++++++.com/sony-and-olympus-will-share-mirrorless-distribution-and-tech/ :-)

As I mentioned before, Canon has been pioneering things for decades. Canon was the pioneer into full frame CMOS image sensors, in the last 10 years. You seem to think that pioneering something "new" in a world already saturated with knowledge about the field of photography is easy. I would also point out that Sony did not really pioneer anything new. They took existing knowledge, including knowledge that was originally discovered by Canon (i.e. FF CMOS image sensors), and repackaged it differently. That isn't really pioneering in the same way as Canon developing the USM AF motor, or developing diffractive optics in spite of an optical and photographic community that was literally saying diffractive optics were impossible. Sony just repackaged existing technology into a smaller package, and dropped another piece of existing technology: the viewfinder (and it's attached mirrorbox.) They didn't even pioneer mirrorless cameras...other companies did that.


But most importantly: they look like they are enjoying innovation and are allowed to live it! I'd love to see some of that spirit at work at CaNikon. It would be good for us .. and even better for them. Good photographers like us :-) can take pictures with almost any gear. For CaNikon however it is about ... survival. :-)

First...there is no CaNikon. Canon and Nikon do not have any business alliance, they do not share technology. There IS a SoNikon...there is a literal alliance between Sony and Nikon where they share technology. Nikon is definitely in survival mode...which is WHY they created an alliance with Sony...Sony is their life raft (which is odd, as Sony needs a life raft of their own from a financial standpoint). Canon stands on it's own, and is quite profitable doing so. I am not sure why Nikon is in survival mode. They make a good camera...they just can't seem to maintain supply, which I think hurts their sales, which in turn certainly hurts their revenue...

Let's talk about Canon's recent innovations. Again, it is becoming increasingly difficult to truly pioneer something in this industry. Most of the critically important relevant discoveries have been made over the last 100 years or so. But there are a few things Canon did that are in line with Sony's A7r "innovation". For example, Canon's shutter on the 1D X is capable of moving at an incredible 14 frames per second with mirror lockup. The shutter and mirror assembly are capable of moving at an equally incredible 12 frames per second. That was a significant challenge, as multiple critical participants in the imaging pipeline had to be improved to support this high speed: The mirror assembly, the shutter, the AF and metering processes, sensor readout rate, image processing rate.

Oh, there is a nice little interview that demonstrates how excited the people at Canon who were involved in making these developments were: http://www.canon.com/technology/interview/eos/index.html. Further, they did it in the face of fairly considerable challenges posed by natural disasters which posed a lot of difficulties in getting the parts they required in order to build and test 1D X prototypes and deliver on time.

You wondered if there were happy, excited, innovative teams at Canon? Certainly! Here's a counterphoto for your Sony team:



It is naive to think that Sony is now the only viable company in the photographic imaging sector. Canon received more patents than Sony last year, indicating they are MORE innovative. They have teams of researchers who are just as enthusiastic. Canon, unlike Sony (as indicated by your link about Sony sharing Olympus tech) develops 100% of its own technology...they own and develop the entire photographic stack, and that even extends beyond the camera into the realm of printing as well. Sony has taken the shortcut route...they create alliances and share technology, rather than developing it all by themselves (and alliances can be broken, so Sony's long term future is not guaranteed if their partner companies decide to break ties.) So, while Canon may be a whole whopping two years (yes, sarcasm) behind Sony, they are innovating in a much larger pool. Canon's goals are laudable, to create a consistent imaging pipeline where all the components, from camera to printed photo, are developed to produce consistent results. Canon's goals also certainly seem to be more profitable, and therefor more sustainable, over the long term.

Between Canon, with a well defined top-to-bottom business plan fueled by more innovation than Sony, with no debt; and Sony, with a patchwork business plan fueled by acquiring technology through alliance (alliances which may be broken) and funded by excessive debt (which will be eating into Sony's profits for years to come)...I'd put my money on Canon as being the long term winner here.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 01:54:01 PM by jrista »

neuroanatomist

  • CR GEEK
  • ***************
  • Posts: 22599
Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #191 on: November 24, 2013, 02:16:36 PM »
And have a look at their new camera. No mirrorslapping any more. Not big and bulky, but small and light but still very solidly built. "Full frame" 36x24mm sensor. Better than any sensor in any old Canon DSLR out there. 

Small and light.  Now, mount a 70-200/2.8 on it and you have a POS from an ergonomic standpoint.

Better than any old Canon sensor?  If I shoot at ISO 3200, does the Sony give me more DR and less noise?  Did someone appoint you the universal arbiter of "better" when we weren't looking?  ::)
EOS 1D X, EOS M6, lots of lenses
______________________________
Flickr | TDP Profile/Gear List

AvTvM

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *********
  • Posts: 3165
Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #192 on: November 24, 2013, 02:50:59 PM »
Small and light.  Now, mount a 70-200/2.8 on it and you have a POS from an ergonomic standpoint.
What do you think is easier: to make a EOS 1D X small and light if you don't need a 70-200/2.8 for a certain shooting/task/trip? Or to use a small camera for all tasks where this is possible and desirable and make the camera bigger, if and when needed ... :-)

The Sony fellas have a solution. Granted, not very innovative  ;D but nevertheless still quite effective: 

Anybody who thinks this is still not large enough or there's still not enough grip, chunk and beef to it ... it's no problem! A whole industry of "rig producers" is happy to deliver devices of all sorts and shapes to make that thing bigger, heavier and bulkier! It's easy!  :-)

Aside from that, there are enough photographers who will never use a 70-200 or larger tele lens - not even on a 1 D Xs [the high megapixel version]. And many more would be happy to have a compact, silent, vibration-free  FF MILC from Canon in addition to a big fat mirrorslapper. 

My point is not, that a Sony A7/R or any other compact FF MILC is "better at anything" than a large DSLR like a Canon EOS 1D X/s or "better for anybody". It is clearly not.  My point is: Sony has come up with a really innovative camera. Canon has not in the last few years. Only marginally improved iterations of un-innovative cameras. I consider this to be a less than ideal state. And I know, I'm not the only one.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #192 on: November 24, 2013, 02:50:59 PM »

candc

  • EOS 5DS R
  • ******
  • Posts: 1262
Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #193 on: November 24, 2013, 03:04:19 PM »
I don't recall reading that users of the 1dx needed or wanted more resolution? I reckon having a super high res option is good as long as you also have some good down sampling and maybe aps-c modes like the DX mode on the d800.

Generally i think that the people that use the 1 series cameras take a lot of shots with them (1500 at an event) I read that the d800 cranks out 50mb+ files and burns through memory cards like popcorn.

I thought canon realized that they didn't need to win the mp war to win the market with the pros who the 1 series cameras are aimed at. Maybe they will continue with 2 high end pro bodies, the 1dx and this one?

PS i don't understand why people post complaints about the large size of the 1 series cameras. One thing canon knows how to do is design and build cameras for the people that need and use them, that's exactly why the 1dx is what it is
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 03:23:53 PM by candc »

neuroanatomist

  • CR GEEK
  • ***************
  • Posts: 22599
Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #194 on: November 24, 2013, 03:29:14 PM »
PS: I have started selling off some Canon gear. Yesterday Sony A7/R have arrived were I live. I'll check 'em out this week. So I may have a little less time to post here.

Feel free to stop altogether.  Go harass the nice folks on the Sony Rumors forum.  I have no doubt you'll become disillusioned about your new little toy camera soon enough.
EOS 1D X, EOS M6, lots of lenses
______________________________
Flickr | TDP Profile/Gear List

canon rumors FORUM

Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #194 on: November 24, 2013, 03:29:14 PM »