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Author Topic: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]  (Read 100350 times)

jrista

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #195 on: November 24, 2013, 03:31:17 PM »
My point is not, that a Sony A7/R or any other compact FF MILC is "better at anything" than a large DSLR like a Canon EOS 1D X/s or "better for anybody". It is clearly not.  My point is: Sony has come up with a really innovative camera. Canon has not in the last few years. Only marginally improved iterations of un-innovative cameras. I consider this to be a less than ideal state. And I know, I'm not the only one.

Your notion that the 1D X is not as innovative as the A7r is flat out wrong. As I said before, the A7r is nothing revolutionary. It is, in it's entirety, an evolution on prior technologies. It's "novelty" (if you can even call it that) is that it is the first full frame sensor stuffed into a mirrorless camera body. That's it. Sure, that is intriguing, and there are some interesting innovations in the sensor (such as offset microlenses) that assist in maximizing IQ for such a large sensor with such a small flange distance (which is a problem that must be overcome as a result of using a full frame sensor in a camera with no space between the back of the lens and the sensor plane). There aren't any more particularly compelling innovations in the A7r than in the 1D X, however. Your completely ignoring the 14/12 fps frame rate, the 61 point AF system, the way the metering sensor is intimately tied into the AF system, the ISO 51200 native ISO setting, etc. These are all INNOVATIONS of the 1D X...innovations you are conveniently ignoring in order to support your infatuated arguments about the A7r.

You also seem to think that the original 1Ds DSLR was un-innovative. It was the first FF DSLR! How could that possibly be "un-innovative"?? Canon successively increased megapixel count in the 1D series well beyond anything anyone else was doing, quite innovatively, I might add. They broke the 10mp barrier then the 20mp barrier for FF cameras. You seem to be completely blind to the technological advancements that laid the foundation for Canon's current success, if not the foundation for the entirety of modern full frame digital photography. CANON innovated the technologies that are the ultimate basis for Sony's A7r. Prior to Canon, everyone was still using CCD sensors and off-die image processing.

Honestly, please tell us, what exactly is so specifically compelling about the A7r that it is a uniquely or particularly innovative product in todays world? Is it just that a FF sensor is in a mirrorless package? That is an evolution...and evolution on top of APS-C mirrorless cameras. Because it can use an add on camera grip? That's nothing unique nor innovative...I've been using grips on my cameras for years, from the lowly Rebel to the 7D and Canon 5D III. Because it's mirrorless? Olympus and Pentax were on the mirrorless ball LONG before Sony. You yourself said the A7r was inferior on many respects...terrible battery usage, lackluster AF performance, limited lenses, etc. So, please, what EXACTLY is so compellingly innovative about the A7r that makes it "pioneering new territory"? As far as I can tell, it's just more of the same evolutionary progress on prior technology that you are blaming Canon for...

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #195 on: November 24, 2013, 03:31:17 PM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #196 on: November 24, 2013, 03:45:24 PM »
So, please, what EXACTLY is so compellingly innovative about the A7r that makes it "pioneering new territory"?

Isn't it obvious?  There are two things that make the a7R compellingly innovative:  AvTvM likes it, and Canon didn't make it.
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jrista

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #197 on: November 24, 2013, 04:19:48 PM »
So, please, what EXACTLY is so compellingly innovative about the A7r that makes it "pioneering new territory"?

Isn't it obvious?  There are two things that make the a7R compellingly innovative:  AvTvM likes it, and Canon didn't make it.

That seems to be it!

Don Haines

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #198 on: November 24, 2013, 04:43:42 PM »
So, please, what EXACTLY is so compellingly innovative about the A7r that makes it "pioneering new territory"?

Isn't it obvious?  There are two things that make the a7R compellingly innovative:  AvTvM likes it, and Canon didn't make it.

That seems to be it!

Digital cameras are a mature industry.... The last "groundbreaking innovation" was the invention of the digital sensor, which was in reality a refinement of work done with photo-diodes... the only thing in the last 10 years that comes close to innovation was dual-pixel technology.... a new and wonderful way of doing live-view focusing that for some inexplicable reason was also invented by Olympus and is on the OM-D EM-1...
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candc

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #199 on: November 24, 2013, 05:11:16 PM »
I don't recall reading that users of the 1dx needed or wanted more resolution? I reckon having a super high res option is good as long as you also have some good down sampling and maybe aps-c modes like the DX mode on the d800.

Generally i think that the people that use the 1 series cameras take a lot of shots with them (1500 at an event) I read that the d800 cranks out 50mb+ files and burns through memory cards like popcorn.

I thought canon realized that they didn't need to win the mp war to win the market with the pros who the 1 series cameras are aimed at. Maybe they will continue with 2 high end pro bodies, the 1dx and this one?

PS i don't understand why people post complaints about the large size of the 1 series cameras. One thing canon knows how to do is design and build cameras for the people that need and use them, that's exactly why the 1dx is what it is

The number of megapixels is up to the user.  1DX, D4 are pure sports cameras and newspaper do not often need higher resolution but there are many other areas where high resolution is needed, fashion, architecture, product photography, nature photography and more.
Canon is lacking a high resolution camera and we are many who wonder when will Canon response to Sony , Nikon.
Here in Sweden and in many other places  we can now read that the new  Sony 36Mp camera with  adapter being tested and  in combination with a variety of lenses like Zeiss, Leica, Nikon and Canon
and people are lyrical about the results with good lenses as Canon 17mm TS as one example
Janne

True enough, if it can be made to have the same frame rates and resolution as  the 1dx and also shoot in a high mp mode then its a winner all around.

jrista

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #200 on: November 24, 2013, 05:20:08 PM »
So, please, what EXACTLY is so compellingly innovative about the A7r that makes it "pioneering new territory"?

Isn't it obvious?  There are two things that make the a7R compellingly innovative:  AvTvM likes it, and Canon didn't make it.

That seems to be it!

Digital cameras are a mature industry.... The last "groundbreaking innovation" was the invention of the digital sensor, which was in reality a refinement of work done with photo-diodes... the only thing in the last 10 years that comes close to innovation was dual-pixel technology.... a new and wonderful way of doing live-view focusing that for some inexplicable reason was also invented by Olympus and is on the OM-D EM-1...

Actually, I believe it was Fujifilm who first implemented "focal plane phase detection AF." The FPPDAF in the OM-D EM-1 is still based on that original Fuji design, from what I gathered. It isn't really "dual pixel" technology as Canon innovated recently, in which every single pixel in the sensor is capable of performing AF functions.

I will happily hand the original innovation to Fujifilm, though, as they had the technology back in 2009 or 2010. Canon's dual pixel tech is an evolutionary innovation on top of that (although it is certainly compelling, evolutionary or not). As for being particularly ground breaking...I dunno. The underlying concept is the same as dedicated phase detect AF sensors...which was simply adapted into CMOS sensors. Still feels like a long term evolutionary process than a revolutionary one...but maybe that is just me.

The "dual fast AF" of the OM-D EM-1 doesn't seem all that different than Canon's Hybrid AF. The EM-1's sounds better implemented, and certainly much faster (I really don't understand why Canon can't optimize their algorithms and achieve fast CDAF.) So, regarding the EM-1, I'm not really sure there is anything ground breakingly new there. 

jrista

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #201 on: November 24, 2013, 05:28:51 PM »
I don't recall reading that users of the 1dx needed or wanted more resolution? I reckon having a super high res option is good as long as you also have some good down sampling and maybe aps-c modes like the DX mode on the d800.

Generally i think that the people that use the 1 series cameras take a lot of shots with them (1500 at an event) I read that the d800 cranks out 50mb+ files and burns through memory cards like popcorn.

I thought canon realized that they didn't need to win the mp war to win the market with the pros who the 1 series cameras are aimed at. Maybe they will continue with 2 high end pro bodies, the 1dx and this one?

PS i don't understand why people post complaints about the large size of the 1 series cameras. One thing canon knows how to do is design and build cameras for the people that need and use them, that's exactly why the 1dx is what it is

The number of megapixels is up to the user.  1DX, D4 are pure sports cameras and newspaper do not often need higher resolution but there are many other areas where high resolution is needed, fashion, architecture, product photography, nature photography and more.
Canon is lacking a high resolution camera and we are many who wonder when will Canon response to Sony , Nikon.
Here in Sweden and in many other places  we can now read that the new  Sony 36Mp camera with  adapter being tested and  in combination with a variety of lenses like Zeiss, Leica, Nikon and Canon
and people are lyrical about the results with good lenses as Canon 17mm TS as one example
Janne

"High resolution" has fast become a relative term, though. It really wasn't that long ago that 21.1mp was considered VERY high resolution. The way you are using "high resolution" is entirely relative to the Exmor 36mp sensor. However if you slightly shift your perspective just a bit, the D800's 36mp sensor is compared, in relative terms, to 40, 50, 60, 80, 200mp medium format sensors, and it is considered "low" resolution when it comes to studio photography (one of the two primary areas where raw pixel count is of paramount importance.)

I am the first to admit, more megapixels is most certainly desired for many applications, and I'm eagerly awaiting the release of Canon's "big megapixel" camera, whatever it is, for my landscape photography. I want, and can certainly use, an "even higher resolution" camera than the 5D III. It should be noted, however, that the 5D III is not, by any measure, a "low resolution" camera, and it is eminently capable of resolving and capturing very fine detail (just check out the bird photography forum here on CR if you want some examples of how well the 5D III can resolve very fine feather detail in birds.) The 5D II was the worlds most used digital landscape photography camera until the D800 came along as well, and there is a tremendous amount of truly amazing landscape photos out there taken with this old, "archaic" camera that clearly demonstrates it more than qualifies as a "high resolution" camera.

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #201 on: November 24, 2013, 05:28:51 PM »

Diko

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #202 on: November 24, 2013, 05:39:19 PM »
I don't really understand why a bunch of people here are so fanatically trying to defend CANONs interests instead of their own?

What I had to say I've said it. I am interested in my needs not in anyone else's needs. And I don't really need any basic knowledge in Economics.... I tend to understand CANON's steps (generally speaking). And I don't like them... That is my point of view.

And as a good agent acting in the free market will be unhappy with CANON's current doings. But that's me.

BTW my guesses are that Neuro is on that picture of CANONs 1D developers :D :D :D

I am a fan of big and heavy (for both bodies & lenses) due to the steady factor and also can't wait for the new CANON 1D (megapixel) and would love to combine it with that awesome Carl Zeis Otus babe. ;-)
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 07:00:35 PM by Diko »
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jeffa4444

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #203 on: November 24, 2013, 06:16:13 PM »
Sony may have crammed a full sensor into a smaller body similar to Olympus size BUT many are missing the point. The most important at part when you take photographs or video is the LENS. Sony does not have the same range as Canon and regularly comes out behind Canon & Nikon in lens tests.
Canon far from being a company that will not be around in a couple of years is innovating and pushing into new areas like its Cinema EOS range of cameras.

The new EOS-1 will have a 45MP sensor.
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Lawliet

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #204 on: November 24, 2013, 06:32:38 PM »
(I really don't understand why Canon can't optimize their algorithms and achieve fast CDAF.)

Canon can't, or at least doesn't, read the sensor fast/often enough. The more updates you have the more aggressive can the lens be driven. I.E. CDAF always means babysteps, C is limited to 30, while others are in the three digit zone. No surprise they're faster.
Thats where Sonys RX10 gets interesting...they get all of its 20MP at at least 60fps and process full raw files into frames for video. I'd love to have the same tech doubled to ~40MP, in a body that takes Canon lenses (plus the flashy stuff, be it RT or Profoto TTL :)) and offers a fast sync speed

eml58

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #205 on: November 24, 2013, 06:58:52 PM »
Ignorant "besserwissers" donĀ“t add value to anything anywhere!
Eldar, I don't even know what that means and I agree with you, too funny.
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jrista

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #206 on: November 24, 2013, 07:00:44 PM »
(I really don't understand why Canon can't optimize their algorithms and achieve fast CDAF.)

Canon can't, or at least doesn't, read the sensor fast/often enough. The more updates you have the more aggressive can the lens be driven. I.E. CDAF always means babysteps, C is limited to 30, while others are in the three digit zone. No surprise they're faster.
Thats where Sonys RX10 gets interesting...they get all of its 20MP at at least 60fps and process full raw files into frames for video. I'd love to have the same tech doubled to ~40MP, in a body that takes Canon lenses (plus the flashy stuff, be it RT or Profoto TTL :)) and offers a fast sync speed

The rate they read frames shouldn't be that big of a problem when it comes to Hybrid AF. They don't need to CDAF the whole entire movement, only the fine tuning after PDAF had done it's job. At 30fps, they should be more than capable of doing that at, well, 30fps (which should mean that the CDAF fine tuning should be very rapid after the initial PDAF moves the lens the majority of the way.) Now, I haven't used one of the EOS-M cameras with the updated firmware, maybe they already solved this problem...

mkabi

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #207 on: November 24, 2013, 07:04:20 PM »
Since people are coming into a Canon forum to diss and dismiss Canon... lets diss and dismiss Sony.
Look at how entirely STUPID sony is for releasing PlayStation 4 without either 4K or 3D support... I mean seriously, are they sleeping on the job over there?

They are releasing 4K TVs and 3D TVs, the least they can do is include it in the PlayStation 4.
Now we all have to believe that 4K and 3D is a gimmick, if they dont' even believe in their own technology such that they don't even include in the next iteration of the PlayStation.

Now they are wasting their time with FF MILC... tsk... tsk... tsk...
Bah...

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #207 on: November 24, 2013, 07:04:20 PM »

eml58

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #208 on: November 24, 2013, 07:20:51 PM »
So, please, what EXACTLY is so compellingly innovative about the A7r that makes it "pioneering new territory"?

Isn't it obvious?  There are two things that make the a7R compellingly innovative:  AvTvM likes it, and Canon didn't make it.

That seems to be it!

Sad, but ultimately it does seem to be it.

But I do see some light here, AvTvM has clearly been over to at least SonyRumours, that's a positive step, I think ??.

And he has said he will likely spend less time now on CR once he has that a7r, another positive step, right ??.

Man I hope he gets a good price for all that Canon Crap he owns & buys the a7r, and is Happy with it.........

Not likely, damn, more Sad.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 07:23:17 PM by eml58 »
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RLPhoto

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #209 on: November 24, 2013, 08:00:09 PM »
So, please, what EXACTLY is so compellingly innovative about the A7r that makes it "pioneering new territory"?

Isn't it obvious?  There are two things that make the a7R compellingly innovative:  AvTvM likes it, and Canon didn't make it.

That seems to be it!

Sad, but ultimately it does seem to be it.

But I do see some light here, AvTvM has clearly been over to at least SonyRumours, that's a positive step, I think ??.

And he has said he will likely spend less time now on CR once he has that a7r, another positive step, right ??.

Man I hope he gets a good price for all that Canon Crap he owns & buys the a7r, and is Happy with it.........

Not likely, damn, more Sad.

And Perhaps AvTvM will actually take photos with his new A7.  ::) ::) ::)

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Re: New EOS-1 in 2014 [CR1]
« Reply #209 on: November 24, 2013, 08:00:09 PM »