November 27, 2014, 01:07:14 AM

Author Topic: Just Touching the Surface of Dual Pixel Technology? [CR1]  (Read 9148 times)

Lawliet

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Re: Just Touching the Surface of Dual Pixel Technology? [CR1]
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2013, 06:23:26 AM »

How so? Not to shamelessly promote Magic Lantern (again :-)), but focus peaking in live view is terrific for manual focus, and personally I really wouldn't know what I'd want dual pixel af in stills for as I nearly never use contrast af.

Some of my favorite models are at their best in the inbetween moments - good luck keeping up with the girls :)

ML...well, with the 70D or 1Dx I get about 50% more flashes out of a battery, corresponding shorter flash durations and faster recycle times...then with a 5D3. The difference in rental & logistics fees outweight the costs of the camera by far. ML is nowhere to be seen. Now with a high res body - how long will that take? That kind of stuff makes "out of the box"/"officially supported" valuable; without such assertions ML remains a bonus, but can't be a factor in mid- to long term decision making.

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Re: Just Touching the Surface of Dual Pixel Technology? [CR1]
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2013, 06:23:26 AM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: Just Touching the Surface of Dual Pixel Technology? [CR1]
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2013, 07:02:38 AM »
...well, with the 70D or 1Dx I get about 50% more flashes out of a battery, corresponding shorter flash durations and faster recycle times...then with a 5D3.

Sorry, but...huh?  Of the three cameras you list, only the 70D has a popup flash.  How does the 1D X provide shorter flash durations and faster recycle times than the 5DIII for an external flash?  Since you ascribe the same benefit to the 70D, I assume you're not referring to something like using a higher ISO.  Can you explain?
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Cali_PH

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Re: Just Touching the Surface of Dual Pixel Technology? [CR1]
« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2013, 08:19:39 AM »
Interesting rumor of a new sensor developed by Hasselblad and Sony paralleling some of the ideas discussed here.

"Every single pixel can have a different shutter time! This means the sensor allows a dramatic increase of the dynamic range. What sources didn’t tell me is how exactly this works and if the sensor is going to be first used by Hasselblads new medium format camera or by a new generation of FF sensors. Anyhow, its great news to see that Hasselblad is working on some exciting new tech with Sony!"

neuroanatomist

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Re: Just Touching the Surface of Dual Pixel Technology? [CR1]
« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2013, 08:25:01 AM »
Interesting rumor of a new sensor developed by Hasselblad and Sony paralleling some of the ideas discussed here.

"Every single pixel can have a different shutter time! This means the sensor allows a dramatic increase of the dynamic range. What sources didn’t tell me is how exactly this works and if the sensor is going to be first used by Hasselblads new medium format camera or by a new generation of FF sensors. Anyhow, its great news to see that Hasselblad is working on some exciting new tech with Sony!"

Sounds interesting…at least for static subjects. 
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Cali_PH

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Re: Just Touching the Surface of Dual Pixel Technology? [CR1]
« Reply #34 on: November 26, 2013, 08:31:34 AM »
Sounds interesting…at least for static subjects.

Yes, I was wondering how that'd work, what settings one would use vs. what the camera actually does...at least for my main personal interest (landscape), I wouldn't have to worry much.  But for something moving fast...you'd get some interesting mistakes.  If that's something they (or someone else) has experimented with, I'm guessing the early test shots were very interesting.  ;D

Of course, the rumor could be incorrect about different exposure times, and it's actually different ISO's as some have discussed here.  Or just incorrect altogether.

Don Haines

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Re: Just Touching the Surface of Dual Pixel Technology? [CR1]
« Reply #35 on: November 26, 2013, 09:01:51 AM »
Of course, the rumor could be incorrect about different exposure times, and it's actually different ISO's as some have discussed here.  Or just incorrect altogether.

NO!!! Not an incorrect rumour! Say it isn't so....

I find it interesting that all of a sudden dual pixel technology has popped up in several sources as rumours and that Canon and Olymus (to a limited degree) have it on the market. Since this is something that has taken at least 5 years to go from the labs to the marketplace you can bet that everyone is working on it... my bet is that in a couple of years everyone will have it on all thier DSLRs and mirrorless cameras...

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AvTvM

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Re: Just Touching the Surface of Dual Pixel Technology? [CR1]
« Reply #36 on: November 26, 2013, 12:12:51 PM »
I find it interesting that all of a sudden dual pixel technology has popped up in several sources as rumours and that Canon and Olymus (to a limited degree) have it on the market.

My understanding is that currently only Canon 70D (and C100, possibly soon also C300) utilize "split/dual pixel"-on-sensor PD-AF with sensels on 80% of sensor surface useable for on-sensor PD-AF - as well as capturing light for image data just like any "regular" sensel. http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-70d/3

All other hybrid "on-sensor phase-detect-AF" implementations seem to be of the "older" (2010) "Fuji-type" http://www.dpreview.com/news/2010/8/5/fujifilmpd where only a small number [e.g. 99 for Sony NEX 5R] of "special-purpose" AF-pixels [partially masked off] are used for PD-AF purposes. These sensels do not capture light for image data, the blanks have to be filled by interpolation.

This latter approach seems to be used by a number of companies: 

Panasonic also filed an on-sensor PD-AF patent in 03/2012 http://www.freepatentsonline.com/8482657.html -  from the looks of one of the illustration images, it seems to also use a finite number of designated PD-AF sensels on the sensor, but has a rather different layout with (separate) PD-AF line sensors behind transmissive image sensor layers  and condenser lenses.

The Sony/Hassy rumour - if true at all - would be yet an all together different thing.

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Re: Just Touching the Surface of Dual Pixel Technology? [CR1]
« Reply #36 on: November 26, 2013, 12:12:51 PM »

Lawliet

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Re: Just Touching the Surface of Dual Pixel Technology? [CR1]
« Reply #37 on: November 26, 2013, 01:52:21 PM »
  Since you ascribe the same benefit to the 70D, I assume you're not referring to something like using a higher ISO.  Can you explain?

Its about the sync speed, the 5D3 is noticable behind there.  The additional power required to balance with the increased influx of ambient light takes its toll on all fronts.

neuroanatomist

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Re: Just Touching the Surface of Dual Pixel Technology? [CR1]
« Reply #38 on: November 26, 2013, 01:58:00 PM »
  Since you ascribe the same benefit to the 70D, I assume you're not referring to something like using a higher ISO.  Can you explain?

Its about the sync speed, the 5D3 is noticable behind there.  The additional power required to balance with the increased influx of ambient light takes its toll on all fronts.

I wouldn't have thought 1/3 of a stop would make that much of a difference...
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Lawliet

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Re: Just Touching the Surface of Dual Pixel Technology? [CR1]
« Reply #39 on: November 26, 2013, 02:57:24 PM »

I wouldn't have thought 1/3 of a stop would make that much of a difference...
With fast triggers its 2/3 of a stop, or a full one if you allow for the same amount of shading, difference(there is a reason the manuals are quite YMMV in that regard), I.E. twice the number of packs, no more lightweight heads, but bitubes that each cost not much less then a 1Dx. Or a D800&a nice set of lenses.
Enough difference to put it rather high on my priority list.

9VIII

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Re: Just Touching the Surface of Dual Pixel Technology? [CR1]
« Reply #40 on: November 26, 2013, 06:02:39 PM »
Wow, all I've been reading for months is that camera technology is mature and stale, and now it sounds like we're going to be seeing all sorts of big changes that affect fundamental aspects of using a camera.
Per pixel exposure and ISO? A camera that never blows highlights? Count me in!
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thome

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Re: Just Touching the Surface of Dual Pixel Technology? [CR1]
« Reply #41 on: November 27, 2013, 06:47:09 PM »
I actually don't understand why this aspect has not yet been discussed - not here, nor an Facebook, but eventually I am just wrong:

If you have phase detection capability on *every* pixel of your sensor, which means for *every* pixel in the final picture, it should be easy to get a 3D image from it.

As I understand phase detection AF, you can actually get the *distance* from just one metering.
Buffer the readout of *ALL* dual pixels, render the image from the light, save a "debth map" document alongside to the image and let the software on a PC render the scene in 3D. Or let the camera do it. There are even 3D capable displays that could be used in camera.

What did I overlook on the technical side?

I think, THIS would be a HUGE step in photography. Although I am completely happy with 2D, but 3D movies and TVs showed us where things could lead us. Then 3D images for everyone were just a logical step.

Any thoughts on this?

Busted Knuckles

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Re: Just Touching the Surface of Dual Pixel Technology? [CR1]
« Reply #42 on: November 28, 2013, 09:30:27 AM »

"Every single pixel can have a different shutter time! This means the sensor allows a dramatic increase of the dynamic range. What sources didn’t tell me is how exactly this works and if the sensor is going to be first used by Hasselblads new medium format camera or by a new generation of FF sensors. Anyhow, its great news to see that Hasselblad is working on some exciting new tech with Sony!"

Sounds interesting…at least for static subjects.

Would this be similar to the old CCD type - track the time needed to establish a defined signal level and use it to provide luminosity vs. signal level for a given time???

Self Edit- wouldn't it be cool that instead of clipped highlights - regardless of shutter speed - the "shuttered" itself at some % of the set shutter speed i.e. the shutter speed is set at 1/1000 and at 1/2000 the pixel achieves a set value other than blown out white so it stops recording and provides a time value.  This time value is then used to predict a clipped highlight if that is what is desired or w/ software apply some sort of sliding scale to recapture all that detail that would have been lost????

this could be really cool at longer shutter speeds...

Got to go, the nurse is here with my meds. :)
« Last Edit: November 28, 2013, 09:43:43 AM by Busted Knuckles »

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Re: Just Touching the Surface of Dual Pixel Technology? [CR1]
« Reply #42 on: November 28, 2013, 09:30:27 AM »

Marsu42

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Re: Just Touching the Surface of Dual Pixel Technology? [CR1]
« Reply #43 on: November 28, 2013, 11:35:10 AM »
Since you ascribe the same benefit to the 70D, I assume you're not referring to something like using a higher ISO.  Can you explain?
Its about the sync speed, the 5D3 is noticable behind there.
I wouldn't have thought 1/3 of a stop would make that much of a difference...

It can, at least when shooting macro with the 100L on 60d - 1/250s is *just* enough to motion-stop something that moves a bit, unfortunately with some ambient light you end up in too high iso regions to get good results.

With the 6d, the 1/180s max. x-sync is too slow so I'm mostly ending up shooting with hss when using macro. You would thing 1/250s for 100mm*1.6x (crop) would be about the same as 1/180s for 100mm*1.0x (ff), but my recent experience is that it isn't.

neuroanatomist

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Re: Just Touching the Surface of Dual Pixel Technology? [CR1]
« Reply #44 on: November 28, 2013, 01:55:44 PM »
Since you ascribe the same benefit to the 70D, I assume you're not referring to something like using a higher ISO.  Can you explain?
Its about the sync speed, the 5D3 is noticable behind there.
I wouldn't have thought 1/3 of a stop would make that much of a difference...

It can, at least when shooting macro with the 100L on 60d - 1/250s is *just* enough to motion-stop something that moves a bit, unfortunately with some ambient light you end up in too high iso regions to get good results.

With the 6d, the 1/180s max. x-sync is too slow so I'm mostly ending up shooting with hss when using macro. You would thing 1/250s for 100mm*1.6x (crop) would be about the same as 1/180s for 100mm*1.0x (ff), but my recent experience is that it isn't.

Makes sense.

But...the benefit of the 1D X and 70D over the 5DIII being discusses was 50% more flash battery life, faster flash recycle times, etc.
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Re: Just Touching the Surface of Dual Pixel Technology? [CR1]
« Reply #44 on: November 28, 2013, 01:55:44 PM »