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Author Topic: Two New Full Frame Cameras in 2014? [CR1]  (Read 24469 times)

Rienzphotoz

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Re: Two New Full Frame Cameras in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #45 on: November 29, 2013, 05:00:19 AM »
If two new full frame cameras are on the horizon and one is an EOS-1DXs type of body, what could the other one be? I’m willing to wager the EOS 6D won’t be replaced before the EOS 5D Mark III or EOS-1D X.


I'd bet on the same side - what do you think?

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Re: Two New Full Frame Cameras in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #45 on: November 29, 2013, 05:00:19 AM »

lol

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Re: Two New Full Frame Cameras in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #46 on: November 29, 2013, 07:14:08 AM »
Just give me a D800 in a 5D body and a 7D2 on the side, and I'll take on anything!
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dilbert

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Re: Two New Full Frame Cameras in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #47 on: November 29, 2013, 08:20:49 AM »
It really is shocking that Canon will prob take 3 years to announce a high MP D800 equivalent, since the D800 was outed/released, or 4 years to actual release - Q1/2 2015.
Which probably means that the D800 was in Dev for 2 years before Feb 2012. Or another way to look at it is canon is 5 years behind Nikon / sony tech.


Considering that Canon said the C300 was an exception in being fast to market (2.5 to 3 year project), I suspect that a DSLR is more like 3 to 5 years in the making. This would make it impossible to see any new 6D or 5D camera available before March 2015, which coincides with this rumor. Why? Because Canon are simply unable to start from scratch and deliver a new camera with a new sensor to meet the challenge that is the D800 or D600 in any lesser time. Furthermore, given how the D800 has raised the bar in terms of IQ requirements for DSLRs, it is likely that any plans they had for a 5DIII were scrapped when the performance of the D800 sensor became apparent.

Quote
And for sure they will not be sitting on their current tech gleeing for 5 years which it what it seems since the success of the 5D mkII.


I think it has been evident for quite some time that Canon's sensor performance plateaued quite early on. After the 20D:

http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Canon-EOS-70D-versus-Canon-EOS-50D-versus-Canon-EOS-20D___895_272_281

Compare with Nikon's evolution:

http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Nikon-D7100-versus-Nikon-D300-versus-Nikon-D200___865_440_203

zim

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Re: Two New Full Frame Cameras in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #48 on: November 29, 2013, 08:34:03 AM »
Me, I'd bet on the 6D being updated first. There is a lot of headroom between the 6D and the 5D so Canon could throw a 70D/7D autofocus system into the 6D II

for me anyway that would be too good to be true

6D should have been a FF 60D from the start (without the extra sensitive centre point)
6D2 should have the 70D/7D points
They should kept the super centre point for the 1Dx & 5D3 sucessors

AvTvM

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Re: Two New Full Frame Cameras in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #49 on: November 29, 2013, 09:49:19 AM »
Just give me a D800 in a 5D body and a 7D2 on the side, and I'll take on anything!

hehe ... had the 5D III come with the D800 sensor, I would have bought it and not needed anything else. :-)

dilbert

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Re: Two New Full Frame Cameras in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #50 on: November 29, 2013, 10:16:37 AM »
Just give me a D800 in a 5D body and a 7D2 on the side, and I'll take on anything!

hehe ... had the 5D III come with the D800 sensor, I would have bought it and not needed anything else. :-)

Or even the D600's sensor.

Rienzphotoz

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Re: Two New Full Frame Cameras in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #51 on: November 29, 2013, 10:18:26 AM »
Just give me a D800 in a 5D body and a 7D2 on the side, and I'll take on anything!

hehe ... had the 5D III come with the D800 sensor, I would have bought it and not needed anything else. :-)

Or even the D600's sensor.
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Re: Two New Full Frame Cameras in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #51 on: November 29, 2013, 10:18:26 AM »

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Re: Two New Full Frame Cameras in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #52 on: November 29, 2013, 10:22:24 AM »
We all have our individual wants and needs, but Canon (and all other big camera manufactures) are not into the tailor made trade. They listen to majorities. Remember which improvements the majority of 5DII users wanted? More megapixels and better low ISO performance weren’t high on that list. Better autofocus and higher fps were and that’s what we got. And even at + $500  compared to the high mp high dynamic range Nikon D800 they sell and probably outsell them.
Sales numbers, market share and profit, that’s what drives a company like Canon and there are no real indications that their current product range is hurting them in those areas so to them this is confirmation they made the right choices.

A new 5D next year? Don’t think so.
5D => 5DII 3 years;
5DII => 5DIII 3.5 years;
5DIII => 5DIV… 3 to 4 years probably.
So it will be well into 2015 and probably 2016 before we get a new 5D.

Rienzphotoz

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Re: Two New Full Frame Cameras in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #53 on: November 29, 2013, 10:24:33 AM »
We all have our individual wants and needs, but Canon (and all other big camera manufactures) are not into the tailor made trade. They listen to majorities. Remember which improvements the majority of 5DII users wanted? More megapixels and better low ISO performance weren’t high on that list. Better autofocus and higher fps were and that’s what we got. And even at + $500  compared to the high mp high dynamic range Nikon D800 they sell and probably outsell them.
Sales numbers, market share and profit, that’s what drives a company like Canon and there are no real indications that their current product range is hurting them in those areas so to them this is confirmation they made the right choices.

A new 5D next year? Don’t think so.
5D => 5DII 3 years;
5DII => 5DIII 3.5 years;
5DIII => 5DIV… 3 to 4 years probably.
So it will be well into 2015 and probably 2016 before we get a new 5D.
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Re: Two New Full Frame Cameras in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #54 on: November 29, 2013, 11:59:49 AM »
While I agree Canon will do what it thinks will give them the best return, they can't ignore the market either. As a general trend, dominant companies in mature markets can be slow to react to a changing environment, although that doesn't rule them out from doing something different either. Looking to the past to guess the future only works if you expect them to do "more of the same". If they have something really new, anything goes.
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Gino

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Re: Two New Full Frame Cameras in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #55 on: November 29, 2013, 12:26:18 PM »
If Canon delivers the following enhancements in the 5D Mark IV, I would be a buyer at a price under $4,000:

* A significant improvement in Dynamic Range (at least 15 EV) sensor performance.  This is the most important enhancement I'm looking for.

* The enhancements that the 1DX autofocus and metering system offers (Intelligent Tracking and Recognition with face detection).  Hopefully with wider focus points coverage.

* A much improved buffering capacity for shooting RAW at 6-7 fps in full resolution

* In camera crop mode with 8 fps

* Dual compact flash memory card slots
« Last Edit: November 29, 2013, 12:28:43 PM by Gino »
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Chuck Alaimo

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Re: Two New Full Frame Cameras in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #56 on: November 29, 2013, 01:10:31 PM »
up the frame rate slightly, add the cf card slot, add a sync port...done....that still leaves room for improving (up the sync speed, add a few Xpoints, etc etc...)

Not sure why they would bother adding a CF slot.  SD cards are comparable in maximum speed, and typically lead capacity-wise (256 GB SD cards were available for an entire year before anyone announced a comparable CF card).  SD cards also take up less space in your camera bag, and have the advantage of being compatible with readers that are built into most laptops, whereas CF cards aren't.

Two slots of the same type are much more user-friendly than two different slot types, because you don't have to carry around cards of two different types.  And given that SD is ahead of CF and is likely to continue pulling ahead (because CF-based devices are basically lost in the noise as a percentage of cameras sold), I'd much rather see them do dual SD cards that can be used either in alternation (which would increase your shots per second or ensure that your buffer never gets full or both) or in combination (as a backup) at the user's option.

while SD are smaller and get the job done and do support high capacity - CF is currently a lot faster and are more durable. 

And the point wasn't really a statement of how cf is better than sd or vice versa --- my statement was more about the simple little things they could do on a 6d2 that wouldn't mean a ton of R&D $$ and time - things they can do without revamping the whole assembly line.
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dgatwood

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Re: Two New Full Frame Cameras in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #57 on: November 29, 2013, 04:12:40 PM »
while SD are smaller and get the job done and do support high capacity - CF is currently a lot faster and are more durable. 

Quite the opposite.  Chances are, Canon skipped CF on the 6D because it was too slow.  Notwithstanding deficiencies in the camera bodies themselves, SD cards smoke CompactFlash performance-wise.  And because most flash card R&D is going into the SD side of things (because that's what nearly every camera out there is using), SD's advantage is likely to continue to grow.

The fastest CF cards, at least to the best of my ability to determine, can achieve about 160 MB/s.  CF cards have not gotten any faster in nearly two years (the first 160 MB/s cards came out in January of 2012).  Based on that, it seems unlikely that the CF standard will advance much past 160 MB/s, so IMO, CF should be considered an evolutionary dead end.

By contrast, the fastest SD cards currently available provide a whopping 240 MB/s write, 260 MB/s read.  At that speed, if your camera can't handle continuous shooting at ten or twelve frames per second in RAW mode, the bottleneck is not the flash card.  In fact, we're probably no more than one or two SD card generations away from the cards themselves being fast enough to handle full-motion full-sensor RAW video (assuming someone were crazy enough to attempt it).

Now if you're willing to change to a completely incompatible card format like CFast, you can get something with approximately the same physical form factor as CompactFlash that can outperform SD, but you won't be able to use your existing cards, and CFast cards cost a small fortune because there's not a ready supply of slower, cheaper cards to compete with them and pull prices down.  And their performance benefit over SD is likely temporary unless that standard sees widespread adoption.  I honestly don't expect CFast to catch on except perhaps in 4K cinema cameras, and probably not even then, given that A. SD is only about 20 MB/s shy of being able to handle uncompressed 4K RAW video at 24p and will probably cross that threshold within a single-digit number of months, and B. nobody in their right mind would write RAW video to flash when you only get about 15 minutes per 256 GB flash card.  But I digress.

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Re: Two New Full Frame Cameras in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #57 on: November 29, 2013, 04:12:40 PM »

100

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Re: Two New Full Frame Cameras in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #58 on: November 29, 2013, 04:42:26 PM »
while SD are smaller and get the job done and do support high capacity - CF is currently a lot faster and are more durable. 


Quite the opposite.  Chances are, Canon skipped CF on the 6D because it was too slow.  Notwithstanding deficiencies in the camera bodies themselves, SD cards smoke CompactFlash performance-wise.  And because most flash card R&D is going into the SD side of things (because that's what nearly every camera out there is using), SD's advantage is likely to continue to grow.

The fastest CF cards, at least to the best of my ability to determine, can achieve about 160 MB/s.  CF cards have not gotten any faster in nearly two years (the first 160 MB/s cards came out in January of 2012).  Based on that, it seems unlikely that the CF standard will advance much past 160 MB/s, so IMO, CF should be considered an evolutionary dead end.

By contrast, the fastest SD cards currently available provide a whopping 240 MB/s write, 260 MB/s read.  At that speed, if your camera can't handle continuous shooting at ten or twelve frames per second in RAW mode, the bottleneck is not the flash card.  In fact, we're probably no more than one or two SD card generations away from the cards themselves being fast enough to handle full-motion full-sensor RAW video (assuming someone were crazy enough to attempt it).

Now if you're willing to change to a completely incompatible card format like CFast, you can get something with approximately the same physical form factor as CompactFlash that can outperform SD, but you won't be able to use your existing cards, and CFast cards cost a small fortune because there's not a ready supply of slower, cheaper cards to compete with them and pull prices down.  And their performance benefit over SD is likely temporary unless that standard sees widespread adoption.  I honestly don't expect CFast to catch on except perhaps in 4K cinema cameras, and probably not even then, given that A. SD is only about 20 MB/s shy of being able to handle uncompressed 4K RAW video at 24p and will probably cross that threshold within a single-digit number of months, and B. nobody in their right mind would write RAW video to flash when you only get about 15 minutes per 256 GB flash card.  But I digress.


So you never heard of CFast 2.0 ...
http://www.sandisk.com/about-sandisk/press-room/press-releases/2013/sandisk-launches-world%E2%80%99s-first-cfast-20-memory-card/

Canon is also a supporter of the CFast 2.0 standard. Masaya Maeda, managing director and chief executive of image communication product operations at Canon said, "With extremely fast performance, CFast 2.0 memory cards will enable us to develop next-generation cameras with more powerful features, enabling future 4K Ultra HD video recording capability."
« Last Edit: November 29, 2013, 04:51:36 PM by 100 »

jrista

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Re: Two New Full Frame Cameras in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #59 on: November 29, 2013, 11:03:40 PM »
Canon's new studio camera will be the one to maximize image quality Again, let's state the obvious. If it's a studio camera it better maximize image quality, else why make it?

Hopefully by this they mean that the 5D4 will have improved DR but perhaps be 32-44MP while the 1DsX will have the same image quality only just some crazy MP like 60-80MP or something and not that only the 1DsX will have better image quality at low ISO (ignoring MP counts).

If they mean you need an $8000 brick to get more DR and if they lock down the 5D4 video and cripple it so that 5D3+ML RAW is as good or better and with more usability then I foresee used prices on 5D3 holding up VERRRRRY well and the A7R really taking off for Canon users. I could see people shooting 5D3+A7R or 7D2+A7R (if they care more about action reach than video) rather than 1DsX $8000 brick. And some maybe going to Nikon, depending.

If Canon doesn't end up releasing a highMP part in the $3000-$3500 range, then I very well might pick up an A7r plus an EF adapter so I can mount my current lenses on it. I guess I don't really foresee Canon stuffing their only modern-day high MP part in the most expensive cost bracket with growing competition in the high MP market from multiple competitors...but then again...it's Canon. They've never really competed directly with anyone, they always do their own thing in their own way.
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Re: Two New Full Frame Cameras in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #59 on: November 29, 2013, 11:03:40 PM »