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Author Topic: Two New Full Frame Cameras in 2014? [CR1]  (Read 60129 times)

neuroanatomist

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Re: Two New Full Frame Cameras in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #90 on: December 01, 2013, 07:49:56 PM »
That said, color reproduction in the digital world is 99% post-process mathematics...tone curves and camera profiles and custom color channel tuning. Color accuracy, or achieving a personal aesthetic color style, has very little to do with out of camera color these days.

And you know this because...?

Quote
As for noise, Canon's have no more or less photon shot noise than any other camera...they have more read noise, however that only exists in the deep shadows, and only exhibits if you LIFT the deep shadows.

And you know this because...?

Because of a basic understanding of digital imaging and camera technology.  I haven't ever seen jrista mistake a lens for a camera, as you've done, nor refuse to admit he was wrong about it, as you've also done.

Do you want to know how I know that?   ::)
EOS 1D X, EOS M2, lots of lenses
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Re: Two New Full Frame Cameras in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #90 on: December 01, 2013, 07:49:56 PM »

Orangutan

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Re: Two New Full Frame Cameras in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #91 on: December 01, 2013, 08:28:55 PM »
This is getting rather petty.   (so what's new?)

To summarize:

  • I think everyone agrees that more DR is better in at least some circumstances
  • More DR does not make a bad photo good, nor is it impossible to make good images with slightly less DR
  • The importance of DR depends on the individual photographer's style, vision and subject matter.
  • None of us on this forum, neither as individuals nor as a group, are in a position to say definitively what demand actually exists for greater DR.  Those on the so-called Canon fanboi side (myself apparently included) seem to believe that Canon's sales numbers give strong basis for inference on that question.

PS to dilbert: I believe the Zone System has 11 zones, corresponding to 11 stops of DR.

Can we get back to useless talk of the new FF Canon 1D-U?  ("U" is for unicorn)

privatebydesign

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Re: Two New Full Frame Cameras in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #92 on: December 01, 2013, 08:46:15 PM »


I think you forgot to include Ansel Adams? You know, the guy that invented the zone based metering system?


The Zone System is not a "zone based metering system" it is a system of prioritising the import part of a scenes dynamic range before exposure to maximise that tonal areas reproduction in a subsequent print. Printing is the be all and end all of Adams' system, how best to expose the scene within the DR limitations of the camera system to achieve what he foresees in a print.

Adams was happy to work within the limitations of his systems DR, that certainly had less than the Sony/Nikon sensor, he was all about realising his artistic vision regardless of where in the range of tones the primary subject was, he blew highlights and blocked shadows when he wanted. His point was to expose the key tones correctly and let the rest fall where it may.
Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light.

jrista

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Re: Two New Full Frame Cameras in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #93 on: December 01, 2013, 09:16:27 PM »
Can we get back to useless talk of the new FF Canon 1D-U?  ("U" is for unicorn)

Doh! Now you've done it! "Unicorn." It'll be a mythological creature forever. :P

jrista

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Re: Two New Full Frame Cameras in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #94 on: December 01, 2013, 09:23:54 PM »
That said, color reproduction in the digital world is 99% post-process mathematics...tone curves and camera profiles and custom color channel tuning. Color accuracy, or achieving a personal aesthetic color style, has very little to do with out of camera color these days.

And you know this because...?

Quote
As for noise, Canon's have no more or less photon shot noise than any other camera...they have more read noise, however that only exists in the deep shadows, and only exhibits if you LIFT the deep shadows.

And you know this because...?

I know it because I've studied the subject. It's a bit of a hobby (a very time consuming one...)

It is also common sense. If color wasn't primarily a mathematical thing, then why is it that the 5D III photographs I see from the world's best...landscape photographers, portrait photographers, macro photographers, etc....have color that is just as good as any photo from the D800? Not only that, why is it that the color of the worlds best photographs that were taken with a 5D III look ABSOLUTELY NOTHING like the RAW images look when taken strait out of the camera (i.e. directly off the memory card without processing)? The color quality of a photograph has nothing to do with the strength of the CFA, or how the colored pixels are arranged, or how much native dynamic range the sensor has. Color quality is a matter of personal style. Each and every digital photographer produces THEIR OWN color style, and it never resembles the native camera output.

I think unfocused put it best:

You don't suppose he was important because of the strength of his vision? Naw...couldn't be that!

The quality of a photograph, assuming it was captured properly, has everything to do with the photographer. Artistic vision is what makes a good photograph good.

Cameras are simply about enabling the photographer to capture photos well. It doesn't matter how good a camera you have, or how good it's native color reproduction...if the photographer has no vision, they will never make visionary photographs...

I know a lot about the technical aspects of photography. They matter, because that knowledge helps me choose the tool that will best service my skill to realize my artistic vision. That said, the thing I care about most, more than the technology, is: How do my photographs look?

I have examples posted all over these forums, if you wish to take a look. I get a lot of compliments, but the simple fact of the matter is I'm rarely satisfied with my work. I don't blame my lack of satisfaction on my equipment. My equipment is excellent, even though these days it is technologically inferior. I blame my lack of satisfaction for not having the ability to fully realize my vision...what I see in my minds eye is often not what I see in my results. No amount of equipment will ever fix that...doesn't matter how much DR Sony and Nikon pump out...the only thing that can fix the deficiency in my art is a continued, exerted effort to improve it myself.



And you know this because...?

So, how do I know? Well, common sense, really. An eye for the obvious.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2013, 09:28:09 PM by jrista »

Orangutan

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Re: Two New Full Frame Cameras in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #95 on: December 01, 2013, 10:08:56 PM »
Can we get back to useless talk of the new FF Canon 1D-U?  ("U" is for unicorn)
Doh! Now you've done it! "Unicorn." It'll be a mythological creature forever. :P

It's bad luck to be superstitious!   :P

Rienzphotoz

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Re: Two New Full Frame Cameras in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #96 on: December 01, 2013, 10:38:12 PM »
Hmmm ... sing glories of DR, as if it is the God of all things photography ...

Actually it is.
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Re: Two New Full Frame Cameras in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #96 on: December 01, 2013, 10:38:12 PM »

Rienzphotoz

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Re: Two New Full Frame Cameras in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #97 on: December 01, 2013, 10:47:23 PM »
Hmmm ... sing glories of DR, as if it is the God of all things photography ...

Actually it is. Colour reproduction is what it is all about. Why do you think there was more than one film back in the day? And that photographers preferred to use one film over another? Graininess and colour reproduction.

What about composition and focus?  A poorly composed or poorly focused shot with high DR goes in the bitbucket.  However, a well composed and well focused image, with slightly less DR, can be outstanding.

Orangutan and Rienzphotoz, you just don't understand.

Robert Frank, Garry Winogrand, Lee Friedlander, Robert Adams, Henri Cartier-Bresson, W. Eugene Smith...all those people and others...their pictures are great because of dynamic range.

It's a well-known fact that Robert Frank was the most influential photographer of the second half of the twentieth century because his images were always sharp, full of dynamic range, without visible grain and perfectly in focus. Oh...wait...they weren't any of those things. You don't suppose he was important because of the strength of his vision? Naw...couldn't be that!
I see the error of my ways ;D ... one must have a new Sony sensor with DR of mythical proportions to make good images ... wait I tried that, but the bloody camera did not have lenses that I wanted ... but I suppose the Sony sensor does not need any lenses as it can take photos even if I put nothing in front coz its the God of all things photography. ;D
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LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Two New Full Frame Cameras in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #98 on: December 01, 2013, 11:14:14 PM »
Today's situation is simple and clear:
  • Currently Canon 5DIII and 1D X have better AF than any Nikon or Sony camera.

Actually I still quite a bit of open debate on this.

Quote
  • 5DIII has a faster frame rate than D800/E + A7R, 1D X has a faster frame rate than D4.  This is useful in many images and shooting contexts.

It can be, unlike more DR which is of course useful only a vanishingly smaller percentage of the time than 14fps are over 12fps.

Quote
  • Above ISO 1600, settings which are commonly used by many photographers, D800/E + A7R + D4 have no DR advantange over 5DIII + 1D X.

Yes, although actually the D4 has better DR at ALL ISOs than the 5D3, and of course ISO1600+ is commonly used by photographers unlike ISO100-400 which are used only for a ******vanishingly****** small percentage of photos.

Quote
  • Generally speaking, Canon has better lenses where there are equivalent options, and more unique lens offerings than Nikon.

agreed


Quote
Nikon and Sony have been lagging behind Canon in market share for years, and have been trying to do everything they can to close the gap…but they've failed.   :P

Yes and this is critically important because THE single most important thing to help the photographer out in the field get the shot they want is to be using only each piece of equipment that has the largest market share.

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Two New Full Frame Cameras in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #99 on: December 01, 2013, 11:17:27 PM »
wait there is no such forum coz DR in sensors holds no value for those who really know how to work DR with proper lighting and diffusion.

and there he goes again

and you wonder where the DR crowd gets the mad, simply mad idea, that the fanboys ever say such things about more DR is useless or is only needed by incompetents

BTW, please come to my next shoot and make sure to bring enough lights to light up a few square miles and enough helpers to do it all instantly at the snap of a finger and oh make sure they do it in a way that looks natural and that none of their equipment shows up in the shot. And make sure you are always there at a snap, whenever needed.

Rienzphotoz

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Re: Two New Full Frame Cameras in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #100 on: December 01, 2013, 11:24:10 PM »
wait there is no such forum coz DR in sensors holds no value for those who really know how to work DR with proper lighting and diffusion.

and there he goes again

and you wonder where the DR crowd gets the mad, simply mad idea, that the fanboys ever say such things about more DR is useless or is only needed by incompetents

BTW, please come to my next shoot and make sure to bring enough lights to light up a few square miles and enough helpers to do it all instantly at the snap of a finger and oh make sure they do it in a way that looks natural and that none of their equipment shows up in the shot. And make sure you are always there at a snap, whenever needed.
Send me return air tickets plus all expenses paid and I'll show you how I do it with my Canon sensor to get the same results.
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unfocused

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Re: Two New Full Frame Cameras in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #101 on: December 01, 2013, 11:24:39 PM »
I think you forgot to include Ansel Adams? You know, the guy that invented the zone based metering system?

PrivatebyDesign has answered that one far better than I could (as usual).

Anyway, do you have an example to draw on that includes modern day people and art rather than historical?

Ryan McGinley, Rineke Dijkstra, Martin Parr, Nan Goldin, Susan Meiselas would all be good ones to start with. And...by the way...Robert Frank is still living.

jrista

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Re: Two New Full Frame Cameras in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #102 on: December 01, 2013, 11:32:16 PM »


I think you forgot to include Ansel Adams? You know, the guy that invented the zone based metering system?


The Zone System is not a "zone based metering system" it is a system of prioritising the import part of a scenes dynamic range before exposure to maximise that tonal areas reproduction in a subsequent print. Printing is the be all and end all of Adams' system, how best to expose the scene within the DR limitations of the camera system to achieve what he foresees in a print.

Adams was happy to work within the limitations of his systems DR, that certainly had less than the Sony/Nikon sensor, he was all about realising his artistic vision regardless of where in the range of tones the primary subject was, he blew highlights and blocked shadows when he wanted. His point was to expose the key tones correctly and let the rest fall where it may.

Sounds like he'd hate HDR then, don't you agree?

Are you truly serious? Or are you just trolling? Because this is a ludicrous response....

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Re: Two New Full Frame Cameras in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #102 on: December 01, 2013, 11:32:16 PM »

privatebydesign

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Re: Two New Full Frame Cameras in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #103 on: December 02, 2013, 12:10:10 AM »
Quote
"So you've never heard someone say "I like the green from Nikon DLSRs better" or "I like the blue from Canon DSLRs better"?"

Only people who don't understand RAW files, who don't use camera profiles (that are basically nicely designed GUI one button programs now) and who don't know what they are talking about.

I can use a Nikon and a Canon at a wedding and both sets of files look identical, same skin tones, same dress colour, everything. RAW data is just that, it doesn't reduce image quality one iota to tell a pixel registering as 243,127,76 to display at 240,125,84.

You need to learn about colour dude.

Now explain to me, which of these two swatches is the original and which is degraded by adjusting the colour.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2013, 12:26:53 AM by privatebydesign »
Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light.

jrista

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Re: Two New Full Frame Cameras in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #104 on: December 02, 2013, 12:59:06 AM »
That said, color reproduction in the digital world is 99% post-process mathematics...tone curves and camera profiles and custom color channel tuning. Color accuracy, or achieving a personal aesthetic color style, has very little to do with out of camera color these days.

And you know this because...?

Quote
As for noise, Canon's have no more or less photon shot noise than any other camera...they have more read noise, however that only exists in the deep shadows, and only exhibits if you LIFT the deep shadows.

And you know this because...?

I know it because I've studied the subject. It's a bit of a hobby (a very time consuming one...)

It is also common sense. If color wasn't primarily a mathematical thing, then why is it that the 5D III photographs I see from the world's best...landscape photographers, portrait photographers, macro photographers, etc....have color that is just as good as any photo from the D800?

So you've never heard someone say "I like the green from Nikon DLSRs better" or "I like the blue from Canon DSLRs better"?

Sure I have. I've also seen their results, which, as I said, look nothing like what actually came directly out of the camera.


And if what you were saying was true then the graph attached at the bottom would show both lines together, right?

The graph represents an imperceptible difference that can only be discerned by software. And, again...it is based off the strait out of camera RAW. You can RADICALLY change those results by tweaking the raw with a very basic algorithm. You can make the 5D III better than the D800, or make the D800's margin even wider. Color is all about mathematical processing.

Depending on how much time you spend in "Photoshop", you can change the colour or compensate for the lack of colour, white balance, etc, to come close to making it not matter which camera you use. But just as using RAW is better than using JPEG (because the data you have available is better to work with), so too is higher quality data (from e.g. the D800) better.

The D800, in some respects, does have MORE data. It has less read noise, so it preserves more data in the shadows. Beyond that, "higher quality"? Nah. It's all bits...ones and zeros, encoding some known original quantity that can be reduced, divided, and redistributed however we please. We aren't talking about preserving analog data in it's original untainted form here.

Think of it like comparing a purely analog audio system in a hard core audiophile's home, the best of the best, $400,000 worth of vibration replication perfection, reading a pure analog signal off a pristine record played on a turntable with 10 degrees of vibration reduction, piping it through the highest quality vacuum tubes and analog processors, sending the filtered signal that is nearly entirely free of noise along the highest quality cabling to a pair of $100,000 (each) speakers, set in an audio room with the most exquisite wood supports and wall paneling that enrich the unmitigated perfection of musical sound permeating every cell of your body (trust me...it really IS like that! :D) The equipment, in that circumstance, is EVERYTHING. You can't beat audio from such a system, it is pure bliss, music of the gods to the ears...literally.

When it comes to playing back CDs? There are a few things you can do in order to improve the quality of your sound. You can buy high quality electronics that don't introduce much additional noise of their own, and for every bit less noise, you pay another order of magnitude in cost. But the simple fact of the matter is that a CD has already been limited, already been restricted, already been diminished from the original source. It doesn't matter if your working with 20 bits or 24 bits, the original unfettered, pure fidelity of the native analog signal is lost. You cannot replicate it, no matter how good your equipment. The vast majority of people who play their CDs can't tell the difference between 44khz and 48kz, let alone 96khz...or 20 bits vs. 24 bits. The frequencies that those bits represent, while a $100,000 CD playback system may preserve them, are beyond the average range of human sensitivity.

A DSLR is basically synonymous with Audio CD systems. It doesn't matter if your color quality is 23 bits or 24 bits...the original fidelity of your native image signal, the one projected by the lens, was lost the moment a sensor packed with evenly arranged discrete sensing elements recorded that signal, and converted it into a sequence of...numbers. From that point on, everything about that image was digital and mathematical.

Now, if your personal style is to take photos and print em strait up, without any processing, then sure...these minute differences in cameras could very well matter. You might not ACTUALLY be able to tell the difference, but if knowing that one particular camera has half a bit more accurate color reproduction makes you feel as though your raw work is better, more power to ya. If you are like 99% of the rest of the billion plus photographers on planet Earth...sorry, they don't really matter much at all. The most significant benefit of the D800 is its extra DR, but that simply improves your editing latitude, allowing you to extract detail in areas where detail was lost to electronic noise. It doesn't do a damn thing for the final color quality of your post-process results. And it only does it at low ISO, to boot, so the value of improved DR is limited in applicability.

Quote
Not only that, why is it that the color of the worlds best photographs that were taken with a 5D III look ABSOLUTELY NOTHING like the RAW images look when taken strait out of the camera (i.e. directly off the memory card without processing)? The color quality of a photograph has nothing to do with the strength of the CFA, or how the colored pixels are arranged, or how much native dynamic range the sensor has. Color quality is a matter of personal style. Each and every digital photographer produces THEIR OWN color style, and it never resembles the native camera output.

Quite right however everyone wants the best possible source material to work with or else they wouldn't use RAW, would they?

RAW, sure. Doesn't matter what camera the RAW comes from. Again, the RAW is the source. What you end up with rarely ever looks like the source, or is even "color accurate", because it is based on artistic vision, personal style, not hardware. What matters is what you end up with...the destination, per-se. I'd challenge you to pick out which camera made which photo if I presented you a range of, say, landscape photos from some photo site or sites (that had all EXIF information stripped). You would certainly randomly guess a few correctly, but in general it would all just be guesses. You can't tell from the final results of an artists processing where their photos came from. It's all the same in the end...the result of mathematic functions applied to an input stream of pixels, rendering an output stream of pixels. Discrete data, in digital form, all having lost the purity and infinite precision of the original. The data doesn't matter. What matters is the photographer's vision.

Quote
I think unfocused put it best:

You don't suppose he was important because of the strength of his vision? Naw...couldn't be that!

The quality of a photograph, assuming it was captured properly, has everything to do with the photographer. Artistic vision is what makes a good photograph good.

Cameras are simply about enabling the photographer to capture photos well. It doesn't matter how good a camera you have, or how good it's native color reproduction...if the photographer has no vision, they will never make visionary photographs...

I know a lot about the technical aspects of photography. They matter, because that knowledge helps me choose the tool that will best service my skill to realize my artistic vision. That said, the thing I care about most, more than the technology, is: How do my photographs look?

I have examples posted all over these forums, if you wish to take a look. I get a lot of compliments, but the simple fact of the matter is I'm rarely satisfied with my work.

I wouldn't want to be too quick on that as a lot of the material I've seen here and the "wow, cool" means a lot of junk is praised when it shouldn't be.

Nice. Clever, underhanded way to fling out an insult. Your very good at that, I applaud your skill...you've apparently put just as much time and effort into honing that as I do into honing the art of my photography.

I would be curious to know if you honestly think my work is "junk", though...as I suspect your words were simply poorly chosen:

http://www.jonrista.com
« Last Edit: December 02, 2013, 02:58:58 AM by jrista »

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Re: Two New Full Frame Cameras in 2014? [CR1]
« Reply #104 on: December 02, 2013, 12:59:06 AM »