60D or Wait?

[elflord]

Thanks again guys... how about purchasing new vs. used?  Thoughts.  I am skeptical about purchasing high-end electronics from private sellers...thoughts?

fredmiranda's buy/sell forum has a good set of listings at reasonable prices and a feedback system. If you pay via paypal (not the "gift" option), you have some recourse if the seller doesn't ship you anything.

[elflord]

Hoping for a new sub $2500 body announced soon.

A new full frame body probably won't be sub $2500, but the 5D Mk II will probably come down a little when the next body comes.

New Vs. Used
I will probably by new.  I am not opposed to used if the seller is local and the price is right.  Canon gear seems to hold its value so well that used prices are usually within 5 - 15% of new prices.  If the camera was greater than 30% off then I would go used.

Refurbs on Canon's website are 20% off the new price, but then you pay taxes and shipping. 30% off is quite a bit below street prices for used gear -- the problem is that a reputable seller with a good track record is also well enough informed not to price there. So that leaves you with craigslist or similar.

30mm vs 50mm
I am also looking to get a good prime lens to start with.  I have been looking at the canon 50mm f/1.4 but also considering a sigma 30mm (I think this is users have rated highly) due to the crop factor.  Is the sigma a good way to go?  Is it a good lens?  would you go 30mm or 50mm as your only prime on a crop body camera?

It depends on what you're planning to do with your prime. If your setup is general purpose zoom and a portrait prime, then take the 50mm. But it seems that you want a general purpose prime, so 30mm is a better choice. The Canon 35mm f/2 delivers excellent image quality so it's also worth a look.

Telephoto Zoom Lens
In addition to a prime lens I would also want to get a nice zoom.  Any suggestions if you could only get one zoom?

If you want a tele zoom, it's a no brainer -- Canon make four different 70-200mm lenses, all of which get excellent reviews. You can't go wrong with any of them.

[catz]

Just my 0.02 cents here:
- 60D is sort of ok for DSLR video. However, the image quality is not on the level of 5D mark II. It is number #2 of Canon video DSLRs at the moment as it has very good price to quality ratio and you will get only the metal chassis  if you get a 7D. 1DMKIV is worse for video, therefore 60D is not a bad choice even if the selection is widened to all Canon DSLR models at the moment.

60D has worse aliasing, it shows worse rainbows in moire and seems to also have less dynamic range on videos.
I have both 5D mark II and 60D and my observation is that if I shoot with same settings (equally exposed) two camera angles, one with the 5D mark II and one with 60D (using the same picture style), the dynamic range of the 60D footage is not enough to allow the "Match color" -function in the FCPX to do a perfect job. These shots will have a slightly different color and look&feel, no matter what I try to do. If I try to adjust the 60D footage, highlights and blacks get crushed way before than on the 5D2. Also the 60D is quite much lacking fine detail that is present on 5D mark II footage.

One alternative for 60D is to find a used 5D mark II and use that for video. It will cost more, but the video image quality difference (IMO) is worth the price difference. Of course if you are expecting to get 5D mark III or 1D mark V or EOS video camera or something like that in a quite near future and want to use the 60D as a temporary solution, I think it is not the worst choice you could make, it is useful as it is even if it clearly has second place in video quality compared to the 5D mark II. According to web reports 7D has identical video quality to 60D, therefore to get better video you have to go all the way up to the 5D2 or just stick with the 60D as there is no middle-ground there. A friend of mine recently got 60D despite of the difference in the video quality over the 5D2 since the price difference turned the deal towards the less expensive camera.

A friend of mine has Samyang 35 mm 1.4 lens and I tried it on both the 5D2 and 60D and found it to be rather good lens. The focus ring is the best one I have tried so far, it makes focus pulls easy, accurate and smooth. It gives about 50mm field of view on the APS-C sensor of the 60D. I noticed some chromatic aberration at f1.4 with high contrast lighting (when subject was shot in available light against a window where sunlight came in). According to my quick testing it diminished by stopping it down. Did not seem to bother me anymore at over f2.0 and also the color of the chromatic aberration looked less irritating than on 50 mm Sigma 1.4 which also exhibits this at f1.4 in the same lighting conditions.

There is one limitation with 60D though: for 5D2 you can get the optical antialiasing filter for video shooting from Mosaic Engineering. There is no APS-C model that I would know of. Therefore the moire/aliasing is unfixable with 60D whereas it is somewhat fixable with the 5D2 if you are ready to invest to the rather steep price of this antialiasing filter that is placed on front of the sensor.

[jasonmillard81]

Catz, you've made me semi-depressed.  However the original thread was not about the 60D vs. the 5DMKII, which we know serves much better in video especially in low light...however how do you account for some of the stunning work done on 60d's throughout the net?  It cannot all be post-production.

Just to gain some clarity as my post seems to veered off a little...

1. 60D new or used...any difference/preferences?

2. Starting lenses that will bring the total price of the 60D and lenses under $2,000

3. Advice on getting great video capturing and that cinematic look for beginners.

Thanks again for the advice given thus far!

[archangelrichard]

while this is the first I have heard of the video issue; the lens chromatic issues are all lenses with all digital cameras - when fully open (above I pointed out that you don't really ever use those wide open settings unless you have to) and, in fact, you get different color issues going all the way stopped down so in general with any lens you want to use F 8 to F 11 - it's what the lens was designed for

USE a LIGHT (movie light or add on flash for pictures)

to answer your other questions:

New or used - at this point you will rarely find much difference in new or used; you might get a little break on new at ebay but not much; used you would need a significant difference and most sellers are trying to recoup all te money they spent. If you could find one at $750 (body) or $850 (with a kit lens, more for better lenses) it would be worth it, but think: WHY are they selling it? What sort of guarantee fo you have? What kind of support fo you have?

Is that worth it to you?

starting lenses - Tamron 18 - 270 f 3.5 - 6.3 well reviewed is under 600 with rebate until Oct 19 2011 (Abe's of Maine for 544.95
http://www.abesofmaine.com/item.do?item=TM18270AFC-PZD&id=TM18270AFC-PZD&l=FROOGLE)
used you can find it in the 500's -- this should be your all purpose video lens; you might consider (for budget reasons) the 50mm F 1.8 canon around 100 (much lighter and far less expensive than the f 1.4)l; for wide angle the tokina 12 - 24 (F 4.0) or the sigma 10 - 20 ( F 4 to 5.6) are good choices and generally under $500 (don't forget to budget lights and tripod, possibly a camera bag but those are so cheap used, garage sales, often free with purchase of camera

advice on great video capturing = this is 90% technique so practice, practice, practice. Practice following moving objects; practice predicting which way they will move, what that does to focus. Go to high school athletic activities and practice following the action football / soccer / baseball; basketball / tennis / badminton (indoors and smaller distances), swimming / diving (up and down AND sideways); practice following cars in traffic (you on a sidewalk); bicycles, pedestrians at a corner (or if in Portland OR, anywhere on any street downtown, pedestrians ignore corners there); follow river traffic (much slower) or airplanes taking off (much faster); -- do all of this but practice, practice, practice so when the moment comes you get it right. Movement is what kills you in video

you will probably want image stabilization off (most image stabilization systems want to counter any camera movement and when filming moving objects

you will want a video / movie light; trust me on this you can never have too much light

you will want a decent tripod with a head that rotates easily in one direction at a time as well as two directions (sideways AND up and down) to follow action -- and you might want some sort of harness / stabilization system for walking

and read all the magazines you can on video photography (popular photography, outdoor photography, etc) and see websites on it like http://blog.planet5d.com/ which our canonrumors guy was recently interviewed on

[kentandersen]

I have 60D and it is a great tool for video for a good price.

I have a 60D with a canon 15-85mm. That is in my eyes the perfect all around lens.
As already mentioned, the 60D has its nose a bit before 7D if you want to make video.

For photography I would recomend a Prime, like 50mm. But for video a zoom is definently the best choice, and even more if you also intend to use the camera on a tripod.

The build quality is bether on 7D, but it doesn't really make a big difference. I have an old 400d, that is far away from the build quality of 60D. Still afther 5 years, more than 100 000 klick, and lots of brutal threatment... my small kids has used it alot. It is still working perfect!!

The difference that really mathers between 7d and 60D is autofocus. But that difference is not that big. If you are not intending to specialize in action shot, birds in flight. And you really feel that 5.6 pictures a second is really giving you big problems in achieving that big stunning picture, well then 7D is youre camera.

The live view of 60D is working fine also for manual focus. I have taken lots of macro this summer, and have mainly used the live view function to take them. I get more excact focus with live view, becouse I can zoom in to 100% and get the focus where I want it.

[bycostello]

rumors are rife so i'd be tempted to wait till after Christmas....

[tnelson42345]

I thought the 60D was weather proof as well? Is it not? I'm leaning toward the 60D, but I'm waiting to see what Canon announces as far as video before I buy anything.

I'd second what a lot of the post above are saying. Personally I'd recommend the 60D - better build quality than the t3i and a bigger, more comfortable grip. The 7D is a fantastic camera, undoubtedly, however I would still choose the 60D over the 7D if your primary useage will be video. The flip out screen does it for me, I've been on shoots where it's simply been invaluable, some of the shots we just wouldn't have been able to do without that screen.

The 7D does offer better build quality still, and weather proofing, so if it's within your budget I'd recommend it over the 60D for photography, but again, for video I'd still pick the 60D.

Also as someone mentioned, the 50 f/1.4 is a wonderful lens, it's just a shame that the 7 and 60 are cropped - 80mm is great for portraits but general use it can be a little confined sometimes.

[neuroanatomist]

I thought the 60D was weather proof as well? Is it not?

Somewhat.  The rank order of weather sealing for Canon cameras is:  1-series  >>  7D  >  5DII  >  60D/50D/40D.

[tnelson42345]

Thank you

I thought the 60D was weather proof as well? Is it not?

Somewhat.  The rank order of weather sealing for Canon cameras is:  1-series  >>  7D  >  5DII  >  60D/50D/40D.

[rocketdesigner]

.... Practice following moving objects; practice predicting which way they will move, what that does to focus. Go to high school athletic activities and practice following the action football / soccer / baseball; basketball / tennis / badminton (indoors and smaller distances), swimming / diving (up and down AND sideways); practice following cars in traffic (you on a sidewalk); bicycles, pedestrians at a corner (or if in Portland OR, anywhere on any street downtown, pedestrians ignore corners there);

Good Points ... all of them.

I ran into 2 situations shooting video this week where I got absolutely killed on ...

1st was shooting an indoor furniture store ... panning - no less with rolling shutter in all its glory, across an acre of furniture that all had to be in focus under dim flourescent lighting ... the higher the iso i went to increase DOF made me increase ISO to the point where the pan and the shutter roll was unusable.

The 2nd, shooting my daughter at her HS volleyball game in a gym that had the strangest, dimmest lighting I have ever encountered. Ever try following a teenager with an HDSLR and a zoom lens on a volleyball court in those conditions? I have had more pleasing root canals than that experience.

[Edwin Herdman]

Prepare to lose many of the shooting opportunities open to you with the camcorder as the 60D and EOS lenses are mostly suited to stationary angles, and not situations with a changing focus point.  If you can nail it, of course, the cinematic DOF is pretty popular - don't know what it is you're filming, obviously documentary (non-talking-heads-style, and for talking heads DOF often isn't important anyway) or ENG type video is mostly out of the question (unless you can get everybody to sit down in front of the camera).

Nikon might be worth looking at here, since they have continuous AF during video / live view now, IIRC.

You might wanna look at this thread just briefly, too...

[elflord]

Prepare to lose many of the shooting opportunities open to you with the camcorder as the 60D and EOS lenses are mostly suited to stationary angles, and not situations with a changing focus point.

Yes, absolutely. I picked up a 5D Mark II recently but held onto my budget camcorder for that reason. It obviously can't out-5D the 5D, but it can do some things very well that the 5D can't (e.g. stay focused on a kid running across a football field without needing a large lens or support gear)

Nikon might be worth looking at here, since they have continuous AF during video / live view now, IIRC.

Good point. For other brands, Sony are also worth a look (continuous phase detect autofocus in video for the SLT models). I can't remember where the Panasonic  GH2 fits in, but it's worth a look too.

[fifowarehouse]

60d seems to be a better choice for you. I like the swivel screen alot, especailly shooting video.

50mm f1.4 will give you great blur background.

I currently own:
60d - will upgrade to 5d mrk III when comes out
50mm f1.4
24-105mm f4  IS
70-200 f2.8 IS

Goodluck 

[sammy]

I own a 60D and based on above am sure you'll be happy with it