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Author Topic: 6D- An amateur's review  (Read 17658 times)

CarlTN

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Re: 6D- An amateur's review
« Reply #75 on: December 07, 2013, 03:57:36 AM »
In that case yes, it's the sensor. I know sharpening in Adobe Photoshop, but this is not something Photoshop can replicate. I guess you will need to really use both to understand. The lines just can't be as fine using Photoshop and the effects are significantly different. I have been using Photoshop for 550D for quite a while, so I would have some understanding regarding that.

I see.  Well I've edited a few thousand images done with my 50D.  It had digic 4 processing, was an aps-c, but was "only" 15MP, etc.  I never noticed the outlining that you're talking about, in it (nor have I noticed outlining from full size pictures I've seen from cameras like the 7D, on the web).  The only real difference I see between the detail via my old 50D's RAW files when viewed at 100%, and those from the 6D (besides the different amounts and types of noise at different levels of ISO)...is that when the luminance noise (the "grain") is at a similar level (say if the 50D is at ISO 500 and the 6D is at ISO 1250 to 1600)...then the 6D's grain structure is a bit larger.  It's not quite like the difference going from the 6D to the 5D3 or 1DX.  Their files show a grain structure that is more than twice as large as that from the 6D (relative to the size of the pixels).  The 50D's grain is well over half the size of that of the 6D, but it's noticeably smaller.  Again, this is viewed at 100%, it's not relative to the total size of the image, since the 6D's image has more pixels.  And certainly the color noise from the 50D was always more of a problem than the grain...but then both got to terrible levels before I wanted them to!

Another improvement is a greater dynamic range (even at low ISO), apparently the 50D's was not all that good, at least compared to the 6D.  The 6D in turn does not have the highest DR at low ISO, either, especially compared to Nikon.

By contrast, the old Rebel Xsi 12MP camera I used to own, did indeed look less detailed when viewing a RAW file at 100% (and it had vastly less DR than the 50D..and a lot more noise).  It kind of looked like aliasing problems to me.  That was "digic 3 processing" though.  I assume the sensor that is in the current "Rebel T3" camera, is closely related to that sensor.  I guess they wanted to make sure the IQ from the current "T3" camera, matched the feel of its body and grip...CHEAP and compromised.

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Re: 6D- An amateur's review
« Reply #75 on: December 07, 2013, 03:57:36 AM »

abcde12345

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Re: 6D- An amateur's review
« Reply #76 on: December 07, 2013, 06:25:41 AM »
That is a possibility. An upgrade from Rebel series to 6D would be substantially different, I believe! It would be outrageous to demand such a high price without much in return. However, the difference between 50D might be lesser since it is a pretty good camera to start with.

pato

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Re: 6D- An amateur's review
« Reply #77 on: December 09, 2013, 02:21:36 AM »
Made the jump and bought the 6D yesterday :)
To bad the battery was completely dead when I unpacked it, and once it was charged, it was night outside :(
Luckily I can test my new toy today :)

verysimplejason

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Re: 6D- An amateur's review
« Reply #78 on: December 09, 2013, 04:02:52 AM »
That is a possibility. An upgrade from Rebel series to 6D would be substantially different, I believe! It would be outrageous to demand such a high price without much in return. However, the difference between 50D might be lesser since it is a pretty good camera to start with.

50D is nearer to rebels in IQ (in fact some rebels are quite better, even 500D) than to a 6D.  6D is worlds apart from a 50D IQ-wise.  Heck, even 5D2 is worlds apart from a 50D IQ-wise especially in low-light.

Zlyden

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Re: 6D- An amateur's review
« Reply #79 on: December 09, 2013, 11:38:26 AM »
The difference in having such a nice outline makes it seem more in-focus. It isn't that my previous camera is not in focus; it's just that the outlines produced are that rough. You have to live with it. A lot of times when I thought my lens weren't in focus, I will check it and realize it is in focus, and I think that's the problem with 550D. It might be different with 70D or 7D, but that's another story.

Could it be just 'sensor's pixel pitch' and 'lens resolution'?

6D images looks sharper because 6D has sensor with lower pixel density than 'traditional' 18-MPs of 550D (and all later Canon's APS-C). Therefore, the final image is more detailed and looks sharper.

I think I know what you mean by "the outlines are rough", because my EOS M images (18 MP) at pixel level look 'less sharp' to me than images from old XTi/400D (10 MP). (When both 18 MP and 10 MP images get down sampled to the same smaller size, 18 MP looks better of course.)

As I tried to point above: the FF camera is more tolerant to lens resolution and can produce good images with poor lens. Anyone who goes to DxO site to check on lens tests can say the same (by comparing the same lens model on FF and APS-C camera).
G7 | EOS M | 400D | 6D
EF: 50/1.8 II | 17-40 | 24-105 | 70-300DO / EF-S: 10-22 | 18-55 | 18-55 IS | Sigma 30/1.4 (old one) / EF-M: 11-22 | 18-55 | 22
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CarlTN

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Re: 6D- An amateur's review
« Reply #80 on: December 10, 2013, 03:50:16 AM »
That is a possibility. An upgrade from Rebel series to 6D would be substantially different, I believe! It would be outrageous to demand such a high price without much in return. However, the difference between 50D might be lesser since it is a pretty good camera to start with.

50D is nearer to rebels in IQ (in fact some rebels are quite better, even 500D) than to a 6D.  6D is worlds apart from a 50D IQ-wise.  Heck, even 5D2 is worlds apart from a 50D IQ-wise especially in low-light.

I would hope so, the pixels are several times the area of the 50D's pixels!  I was only stating the experience I've had in editing thousands of photos from both...that's all.  I'm not sure any of the Rebels are that much better in IQ than the 50D, though no doubt the T4i and T5i are very slightly better.  They still don't have AFMA, though!  But then, neither did the 60D...
« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 04:01:42 AM by CarlTN »

CarlTN

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Re: 6D- An amateur's review
« Reply #81 on: December 10, 2013, 04:00:54 AM »
The difference in having such a nice outline makes it seem more in-focus. It isn't that my previous camera is not in focus; it's just that the outlines produced are that rough. You have to live with it. A lot of times when I thought my lens weren't in focus, I will check it and realize it is in focus, and I think that's the problem with 550D. It might be different with 70D or 7D, but that's another story.

Could it be just 'sensor's pixel pitch' and 'lens resolution'?

6D images looks sharper because 6D has sensor with lower pixel density than 'traditional' 18-MPs of 550D (and all later Canon's APS-C). Therefore, the final image is more detailed and looks sharper.

I think I know what you mean by "the outlines are rough", because my EOS M images (18 MP) at pixel level look 'less sharp' to me than images from old XTi/400D (10 MP). (When both 18 MP and 10 MP images get down sampled to the same smaller size, 18 MP looks better of course.)

As I tried to point above: the FF camera is more tolerant to lens resolution and can produce good images with poor lens. Anyone who goes to DxO site to check on lens tests can say the same (by comparing the same lens model on FF and APS-C camera).

I agree, but again, "outlines" around images sounds more like internal RAW processing to me, or else an inherent characteristic of the sensor.  And again, I assume the 7D has the same sensor, and I've never seen such outlines from it.

The argument about lower pixel density holds up to a degree, but in my opinion not as much as the difference in "sensel size" would have you think.  That's why I didn't feel the need to keep a crop sensor camera after buying the 6D.  Because, in reality...and given the image that gets shot, achieves adequate sharpness...the 6D has more resolution than it seems like it would, so the difference is not as great.  Perhaps the new 70D's 20MP sensor is very noticeably higher resolving than the old 18MP, so it might have more of the "lens flaw" resolving power you're talking about.  But...is that really a good thing?  Because it's not just about lens resolution itself, but also focus accuracy.  And lenses only focus so accurately and consistently.  With very small pixels, even something less than a micron of inaccurate autofocus, is going to suddenly reduce that 20MP crop sensor's resolution to 10MP...in which case it has no advantage over a full frame camera with larger pixels.  In fact it only has disadvantages.

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Re: 6D- An amateur's review
« Reply #81 on: December 10, 2013, 04:00:54 AM »

Zlyden

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Re: 6D- An amateur's review
« Reply #82 on: December 10, 2013, 11:49:25 AM »
In fact it only has disadvantages.

Yes. Similar doubts about 'all them megapixels' kept me from replacing 400D with newer APS-C camera for 5 or almost 6 years.

And I definitely do not need pictures that occupy much more file space. After doing some tests I decided to shoot with 6D in 'large RAW + medium JPEG' mode: 10MP JPEGs are quite enough for almost all needs (they also do not eat terabytes of space and megabits of traffic on editorial server), 20 MP RAWs are needed sometimes when some extra PP is needed.

I did some tests with 'L' and 'M' size of RAWs and did not see any quality improvements (sharpness, ISO) in smaller 10 MP 'M's compared to larger 20 MPs 'L's, that might be expected (?).

If anyone has some links at hand (or can explain it in few words), I will appreciate to get some basic info that explains how exactly different RAW sizes are created in camera, what advantages/disadvantages each one has...
G7 | EOS M | 400D | 6D
EF: 50/1.8 II | 17-40 | 24-105 | 70-300DO / EF-S: 10-22 | 18-55 | 18-55 IS | Sigma 30/1.4 (old one) / EF-M: 11-22 | 18-55 | 22
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Marsu42

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Re: 6D- An amateur's review
« Reply #83 on: December 10, 2013, 12:09:38 PM »
Yes. Similar doubts about 'all them megapixels' kept me from replacing 400D with newer APS-C camera for 5 or almost 6 years.

I admit I'm completely lost with this line of thought - the 18mp crop sensor might be (arguably!) worse at 100% pixel level but if you downsize it to the mp count of former cameras it's same or superior - so you can think of it as getting more resolution for free for select shots.

I understand that people say that this argumentation doesn't isn't valid for 40mp+ high mp sensors as you really "don't need it", but personally I don't consider 18/20mp overkill if you shoot loose or want to crop for different aspect ratios.

candc

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Re: 6D- An amateur's review
« Reply #84 on: December 10, 2013, 12:16:35 PM »
I have a 70d and a 6d. Everybody knows the 6d has better low light performance but the IQ is very similar in normal shooting conditions. The 70d is much nicer to use in just about every way. They both have their uses so get them both for $2400 total and you have all kinds of options

pato

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Re: 6D- An amateur's review
« Reply #85 on: December 10, 2013, 12:53:05 PM »
Holy shi* I've already managed to scratch my display :( Don't know how I did it, but it's scratched. My 550D is 3 years old and hasn't even a single scratch :(
It seems as if there is some anti reflection coating and that doesn't seem to be very hard  :'(

Marsu42

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Re: 6D- An amateur's review
« Reply #86 on: December 10, 2013, 01:03:37 PM »
It seems as if there is some anti reflection coating and that doesn't seem to be very hard  :'(

Canon saved some $$$ buy just putting a plastic lcd into the 6d, the 5d3 has a glass cover ... so the very first thing after buying is to stick a protective plastic cover on it or order a glass protector, ebay/China for €5...

... but don't dispair, if you put a non-reflective cover on it now the scratch won't be as visible as now.

Zlyden

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Re: 6D- An amateur's review
« Reply #87 on: December 10, 2013, 01:06:48 PM »
I admit I'm completely lost with this line of thought - the 18mp crop sensor might be (arguably!) worse at 100% pixel level but if you downsize it to the mp count of former cameras it's same or superior - so you can think of it as getting more resolution for free for select shots.

The reason was: I was satisfied with 400D 10MP pictures most of the time (especially with quick RAW post-processing). No, I do not shoot birds, cats, kids, football players (and other fast moving animals or objects). I shoot a lot of equipment pictures that will be printed in the magazine as half-page width illustrations (i.e. -- 4x3 inches or 10x7 cm, even with 340 lpi Agfa screening, 10 MPs are much more than enough for the purpose).

The thing I did not like about 400D was not its 10MPs sensor size, but its 'not very good' high ISO handling (and long time or inability to focus in dark without flash).

Judging by reviews (and rumors) that I looked at during all these years: no Canon APS-C camera could deliver me such things to a level or degree that was worth the switch.

And the final drop (that made me to purchase 6D) was getting EOS M. EOS M has 18 MP sensor similar to all other Canon's APS-Cs and it did not offer any significant ISO/indoor improvements compared to 400D. Switching from 400D to 6D (and FF) was the only logical step with much better IQ promised (and delivered).

PS: And I wish that EOS M had similar picture quality settings as 6D: so, I could choose big RAW L + smaller JPEG M combination :)
G7 | EOS M | 400D | 6D
EF: 50/1.8 II | 17-40 | 24-105 | 70-300DO / EF-S: 10-22 | 18-55 | 18-55 IS | Sigma 30/1.4 (old one) / EF-M: 11-22 | 18-55 | 22
I also own few Canon flashes, remotes, blends, bags, cases (including waterproof one) and even batteries! :)

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Re: 6D- An amateur's review
« Reply #87 on: December 10, 2013, 01:06:48 PM »

CarlTN

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Re: 6D- An amateur's review
« Reply #88 on: December 10, 2013, 02:43:07 PM »
I have a 70d and a 6d. Everybody knows the 6d has better low light performance but the IQ is very similar in normal shooting conditions. The 70d is much nicer to use in just about every way. They both have their uses so get them both for $2400 total and you have all kinds of options

Much nicer in just about every way?  I doubt that!

candc

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Re: 6D- An amateur's review
« Reply #89 on: December 10, 2013, 06:20:18 PM »
I have a 70d and a 6d. Everybody knows the 6d has better low light performance but the IQ is very similar in normal shooting conditions. The 70d is much nicer to use in just about every way. They both have their uses so get them both for $2400 total and you have all kinds of options

Much nicer in just about every way?  I doubt that!

it is, a lot of the features like the touch swivel screen and the really good live view shooting are things that i thought were kind of gimmicky to begin with now i don't want a camera without them. the way you can get through the menus using the touchscreen and the q button is so much better, i also really like the af expansion button and the better af system in general. the 70d seems to just respond faster.

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Re: 6D- An amateur's review
« Reply #89 on: December 10, 2013, 06:20:18 PM »