July 24, 2014, 12:26:16 AM

Author Topic: Patent: Canon EF 300-600 f/5.6 w/1.4x TC  (Read 19021 times)

GMCPhotographics

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Re: Patent: Canon EF 300-600 f/5.6 w/1.4x TC
« Reply #150 on: March 18, 2014, 07:14:14 AM »
The wide aperture affects AF speed and AF point precision and capability. Remember, particularly in the 61pt AF system, there are f/2.8 double cross type points, f/4 cross type points, f/5.6 line points, and the center expansion f/8 points. With an f/4 lens, you ALWAYS AF at f/4, no matter what you stop down to for actual shooting. The extra stop of light allows the AF system to operate more quickly and more accurately. When f/4 AF points are used, they tend to be more precise than f/5.6 points, which need larger pixels in order to sense as well as f/4 pixels.

The point of an f/4 lens isn't that you always shoot wide open (although in the evening, it isn't uncommon...I tend to be around f/8 aperture for shooting during daytime, and f/4-5.6 for shooting around sunset, for wildlife.) It's that you ALWAYS AF wide open (by design.) And yes, with an f/4 lens, when you slap on a 1.4x TC, you still AF at f/5.6, which is still better than AF at f/8, no question.


Jrista, thank you.
I actually completely forgot about the difference between f4 AF points and f5.6 ones. The high precision f2.8 AF points are referenced so much I guess I clumped all the others into the same group. (After reading multiple articles detailing all the AF points, and watching the entire B&H Canon AF seminar [ ww.youtube.com/watch?v=iAx86nblZ2g ][great video BTW], you would think that someone would remember something like that. I guess a guy can only fill his head with so much.)
That changes my perception of the TCs quite a bit. I've been assuming that you get "worse AF" when using a TC because of a combination of optical performance and some kind of interference in the circuitry, if on the other hand it's actually just due to the change in the type of AF points used, then the 600f4+1.4xTC is actually going to AF exactly the same as the 800f5.6. I was assuming the latter would have an advantage.
Indeed that does make a very good case for the 600f4, and makes the 300f2.8 more appealing now that I know it's not some mystical interference from the teleconverter making AF worse at 600mm.


A little digging brings this up

From the TDP review http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-Extender-EF-1.4x-III-Review.aspx

Quote
Shooting with the Canon EF 1.4x III Extender mounted results in reduction of autofocus speed. According to Chuck Westfall (Canon USA): "As with previous EF Extenders, usage of Series III EF Extenders lowers AF drive speed to improve AF performance. When Extender EF 1.4X III is used, AF drive speed is reduced by 50%. When Extender EF 2X III is used, AF drive speed is reduced by 75%. This may seem like a drawback, but in reality subject tracking performance remains quite high when Series III Extenders are used with IS II lenses. This is due to improvements in AF precision made possible by the new microcomputer in the extenders."


So adding an extender does specifically and purposefully slow down AF.


Maximum drive speed is determined by the body, though. The 1D X drives lenses faster than a 5D III, which drives them faster than a 7D. Yes, adding an EF TC III does reduce speed, but it is still faster with higher grade bodies than lower grade bodies.


I read a comment by Chuck Wesfall, who said that AF speed difference between the 1D and non 1D cameras was due to the slightly higher voltage the 1D series runs at. Different batteries, different voltage, slightly different AF speed.

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Re: Patent: Canon EF 300-600 f/5.6 w/1.4x TC
« Reply #150 on: March 18, 2014, 07:14:14 AM »

CarlTN

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Re: Patent: Canon EF 300-600 f/5.6 w/1.4x TC
« Reply #151 on: March 19, 2014, 01:10:21 AM »
I read a comment by Chuck Wesfall, who said that AF speed difference between the 1D and non 1D cameras was due to the slightly higher voltage the 1D series runs at. Different batteries, different voltage, slightly different AF speed.

Entirely possible, but that means the AF motor in the lenses, can operate at different voltages.  I guess it can.  The 1DX's pack uses three 18650 battery cells, each is 3.7 volts.  3.7 x 3 = 11.1 volts.

scyrene

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Re: Patent: Canon EF 300-600 f/5.6 w/1.4x TC
« Reply #152 on: March 20, 2014, 08:29:30 AM »
Again, as I mentioned before, I don't know many people who would even WANT to use a lens 800mm or longer for BIF. Unless the birds are sufficiently far away, but in that case you often have atmospheric effects that eliminate any benefit of using a longer lens vs. getting up and moving closer to the action. Personally, I only do BIF with 600mm f/4, and even that, on occasion, results in birds that are much too large in the frame (although that is 7D...with a FF, 600/4 would be PERFECT! I couldn't imagine using the 600/4+1.4x for BIF.)

I was thinking about this yesterday. One advantage to using longer focal lengths (for birds flying further away) is that it requires less body movement to track them as they cross the field of view. I've tried shooting gulls many times (it's possible to get close to them in flight), and I simply can't move the lens fast enough to even track them with the focus point. Further away (implying longer focal length), you can follow them with relatively subtle body movement, if that makes sense.

Atmospheric effects are a consideration, but I'd argue birds in flight allow greater leeway with detail than perched ones if the overall form (the bird's pose) and composition are good enough.
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neuroanatomist

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Re: Patent: Canon EF 300-600 f/5.6 w/1.4x TC
« Reply #153 on: March 20, 2014, 09:25:09 AM »
I couldn't imagine using the 600/4+1.4x for BIF.

Not only can I imagine it, I do it routinely.


EOS 1D X, EF 600mm f/4L IS II + EF 1.4x III Extender, 1/2500 s, f/8, ISO 640

With the 2x as well…


EOS 1D X, EF 600mm f/4L IS II + EF 2x III Extender, 1/2500 s, f/11, ISO 1000
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Re: Patent: Canon EF 300-600 f/5.6 w/1.4x TC
« Reply #154 on: March 20, 2014, 01:40:31 PM »
I couldn't imagine using the 600/4+1.4x for BIF.

Not only can I imagine it, I do it routinely.


EOS 1D X, EF 600mm f/4L IS II + EF 1.4x III Extender, 1/2500 s, f/8, ISO 640

With the 2x as well…


EOS 1D X, EF 600mm f/4L IS II + EF 2x III Extender, 1/2500 s, f/11, ISO 1000

Great shots John!
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Re: Patent: Canon EF 300-600 f/5.6 w/1.4x TC
« Reply #155 on: March 20, 2014, 10:42:24 PM »
I read a comment by Chuck Wesfall, who said that AF speed difference between the 1D and non 1D cameras was due to the slightly higher voltage the 1D series runs at. Different batteries, different voltage, slightly different AF speed.

Entirely possible, but that means the AF motor in the lenses, can operate at different voltages.  I guess it can.  The 1DX's pack uses three 18650 battery cells, each is 3.7 volts.  3.7 x 3 = 11.1 volts.

After reading a bit about modern flashlights I learned that there is a fairly wide range that most systems will operate at.
The CPU will be heavily regulated regardless, but if you can stick any lens on a 1d and it actually operates at 11 volts, I would expect to be able to use different batteries and get the same performance.
Maybe someone willing to risk frying a camera with a battery grip could try putting three CR123's in. you would have to use dummy cells for the empty slots.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 10:44:27 PM by 9VIII »
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CarlTN

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Re: Patent: Canon EF 300-600 f/5.6 w/1.4x TC
« Reply #156 on: March 21, 2014, 03:41:58 AM »
I read a comment by Chuck Wesfall, who said that AF speed difference between the 1D and non 1D cameras was due to the slightly higher voltage the 1D series runs at. Different batteries, different voltage, slightly different AF speed.

Entirely possible, but that means the AF motor in the lenses, can operate at different voltages.  I guess it can.  The 1DX's pack uses three 18650 battery cells, each is 3.7 volts.  3.7 x 3 = 11.1 volts.

After reading a bit about modern flashlights I learned that there is a fairly wide range that most systems will operate at.
The CPU will be heavily regulated regardless, but if you can stick any lens on a 1d and it actually operates at 11 volts, I would expect to be able to use different batteries and get the same performance.
Maybe someone willing to risk frying a camera with a battery grip could try putting three CR123's in. you would have to use dummy cells for the empty slots.

I won't be doing that, but you are welcome to try. :P  Two CR123's fit into either of my LED flashlights, in place of the one 18650.  But the 18650 is said to last longer...these are just Chinese made "ultrafire" 3000 mah.

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Re: Patent: Canon EF 300-600 f/5.6 w/1.4x TC
« Reply #156 on: March 21, 2014, 03:41:58 AM »

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Re: Patent: Canon EF 300-600 f/5.6 w/1.4x TC
« Reply #157 on: March 21, 2014, 04:07:11 AM »
I couldn't imagine using the 600/4+1.4x for BIF.

Not only can I imagine it, I do it routinely.


EOS 1D X, EF 600mm f/4L IS II + EF 1.4x III Extender, 1/2500 s, f/8, ISO 640

With the 2x as well…


EOS 1D X, EF 600mm f/4L IS II + EF 2x III Extender, 1/2500 s, f/11, ISO 1000


Wow! You have some great technique! Of course, I bet that 12fps and faster AF drive of the 1DX is immensely helpful, too!

The shot taken with the 2x is good, but the atmospheric blurring is generally why I probably wouldn't do that much. But seeing what you did with the 1.4x...if I ever get, or rent, a 1D X, I'd be willing to give it a try. I'm not sure how well a 5D III would fare. I know for a fact that my 7D doesn't handle the 600+1.4x for BIF very well...it's just too slow.
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mackguyver

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Re: Patent: Canon EF 300-600 f/5.6 w/1.4x TC
« Reply #158 on: March 21, 2014, 09:51:17 AM »
Neuro, those are great shots, particularly that first one where the shape of the trees and the negative space really frames the bird.  Were these hand held, or (I assume, at least at 1200mm) from a gimbal?

jrista, the 7D AF blows the old AF out of the water, but the 5DIII is definitely yet another big step up from the 7D, particularly with subject tracking.  Being able to lock an AF point on a bird and have it track it over 2/3 of the frame is amazing. The 6FPS frame rate is a bit of a let down after the 7D, but is still fast enough to get good action shots most of the time, which is why I sold my 7D about 6 months after getting the 5DIII.  The image quality, high ISO performance, and AF more than make up the FF and FPS loss.

I just had a 1D X delivered yesterday and haven't tried it out yet, but I'm excited, especially after looking at the 1D X photo thread and Neuro's shots above :)
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expatinasia

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Re: Patent: Canon EF 300-600 f/5.6 w/1.4x TC
« Reply #159 on: March 21, 2014, 09:58:51 AM »
I couldn't imagine using the 600/4+1.4x for BIF.

Not only can I imagine it, I do it routinely.


EOS 1D X, EF 600mm f/4L IS II + EF 1.4x III Extender, 1/2500 s, f/8, ISO 640

With the 2x as well…


EOS 1D X, EF 600mm f/4L IS II + EF 2x III Extender, 1/2500 s, f/11, ISO 1000


Great shots, Neuro! Love the side on view (one you did not post).
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expatinasia

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Re: Patent: Canon EF 300-600 f/5.6 w/1.4x TC
« Reply #160 on: March 21, 2014, 10:01:55 AM »
I just had a 1D X delivered yesterday and haven't tried it out yet, but I'm excited, especially after looking at the 1D X photo thread and Neuro's shots above :)

I hope you do not mind me saying, but try to make the first shot something special, as the camera will blow you away.

I will never forget my first real shots with the 1D X as all I thought was "oh s**t"!

Enjoy, and congrats!!
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mackguyver

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Re: Patent: Canon EF 300-600 f/5.6 w/1.4x TC
« Reply #161 on: March 21, 2014, 10:51:23 AM »
I just had a 1D X delivered yesterday and haven't tried it out yet, but I'm excited, especially after looking at the 1D X photo thread and Neuro's shots above :)

I hope you do not mind me saying, but try to make the first shot something special, as the camera will blow you away.

I will never forget my first real shots with the 1D X as all I thought was "oh s**t"!

Enjoy, and congrats!!
I don't mind at all, and thanks!  I tried the burst mode last night and so I've already had one "oh s**t" moment!  It seems 20x faster than the 5DIII, not twice as fast :)
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Re: Patent: Canon EF 300-600 f/5.6 w/1.4x TC
« Reply #162 on: March 21, 2014, 11:09:13 AM »
I just had a 1D X delivered yesterday and haven't tried it out yet, but I'm excited, especially after looking at the 1D X photo thread and Neuro's shots above :)

I hope you do not mind me saying, but try to make the first shot something special, as the camera will blow you away.

I will never forget my first real shots with the 1D X as all I thought was "oh s**t"!

Enjoy, and congrats!!
I don't mind at all, and thanks!  I tried the burst mode last night and so I've already had one "oh s**t" moment!  It seems 20x faster than the 5DIII, not twice as fast :)

it sure is fun holding that button down isn't it!!


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Re: Patent: Canon EF 300-600 f/5.6 w/1.4x TC
« Reply #162 on: March 21, 2014, 11:09:13 AM »

expatinasia

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Re: Patent: Canon EF 300-600 f/5.6 w/1.4x TC
« Reply #163 on: March 21, 2014, 11:21:39 AM »
I just had a 1D X delivered yesterday and haven't tried it out yet, but I'm excited, especially after looking at the 1D X photo thread and Neuro's shots above :)

I hope you do not mind me saying, but try to make the first shot something special, as the camera will blow you away.

I will never forget my first real shots with the 1D X as all I thought was "oh s**t"!

Enjoy, and congrats!!
I don't mind at all, and thanks!  I tried the burst mode last night and so I've already had one "oh s**t" moment!  It seems 20x faster than the 5DIII, not twice as fast :)

Not quite what I meant, as I was referring more to the IQ and FPS, but is all good. Enjoy.
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mackguyver

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Re: Patent: Canon EF 300-600 f/5.6 w/1.4x TC
« Reply #164 on: March 21, 2014, 11:25:46 AM »
it sure is fun holding that button down isn't it!!
Oh yeah!  Now I know why the shutter rating is so much higher, too!

Not quite what I meant, as I was referring more to the IQ and FPS, but is all good. Enjoy.
I know what you meant, I was just saying that my first impression was holy crap!  I can't wait to actually use it, but alas my consulting gig has me stuck behind the desk today, but I'm off to the beach tomorrow...
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Re: Patent: Canon EF 300-600 f/5.6 w/1.4x TC
« Reply #164 on: March 21, 2014, 11:25:46 AM »