December 17, 2014, 04:49:19 PM

Author Topic: Best Possible IQ  (Read 9160 times)

alexanderferdinand

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Re: Best Possible IQ
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2013, 11:49:40 AM »
Maybe a little conversation with the people who make this book would be helpful.
The PP- human sure knows what he likes to have and what not?
Wishes and no-gos.
Sounds all a bit diffuse to me.
Sorry, just my first thought I read it.
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Re: Best Possible IQ
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2013, 11:49:40 AM »

Halfrack

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Re: Best Possible IQ
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2013, 01:46:35 PM »
What is the budget for this shoot?  For the best possible image you can:

-Rent a medium format system for a week, learn enough to shoot the image, and bracket for DR
-Rent a Canon 5d mk3 and use a TS-E lens and bracket/stitch the snot out of it
-Rent a D800e/A7r and lens or adapter to use existing Canon glass

OP would help us a lot by letting us know what gear you already have.  How wide or long the shot will be (aka you're going to use every bit of the frame, so are you shooting at 24mm, 85mm or a 200mm?)

Have you already shot the image the client is looking to publish?  If not, do a survey of the shot with the gear you have, and see if and where you have an issue.  Depending on the shot, you may be better off with a technical camera like an Alpa/Arca/Cambo - even if you pair it with a low resolution 22-30mp Phase One or Leaf back.
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Re: Best Possible IQ
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2013, 04:04:16 PM »
I'd stick with a camera that you know how to use.  Getting a medium format camera, learning that the lens you thought was right was not, and generally becoming expert with it is too much to absorb in three or four days.
 
Rent a heavy tripod, panorama head, or use a tilt-shift lens and you should get fantastic results.  If the PP user is good, let him do the final stitching.  I'd think that by having multiple images of the same subject, it would be easy to remove people or moving objects and paste in the area from a image where they were not there, or select a image to include in the stitching where the person had moved on.  So many good possibilities.

pdirestajr

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Re: Best Possible IQ
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2013, 04:36:18 PM »
How about go totally crazy and rock one of those Sigma DP Merill cameras!
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Re: Best Possible IQ
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2013, 05:02:48 PM »
OP, You posed a question to the forum to gain some insight / tips.  I can't anything to what has already been stated....but....having seen Sporgon's work I'd be inclined to take his advice if I was in a similar situation.  I've also played around with the technique Neuro mentioned, stitching shots taken with an ND10 filter to get rid of people.  You have time to perfect these methods.  Renting a camera system you're unfamiliar with for what is an important assignment seems to me akin to renting a stickshift with a worn clutch for one day in San Francisco.

dr croubie

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Re: Best Possible IQ
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2013, 05:39:03 PM »
You want "the best", or "the best within budget"?
For backs, there's the IQ180, but there's also the new IQ280. The main advantage of the 280 over the 180 is that the 280 doesn't crap out on long exposures, get one of them for 1min+.
Going the Hasselblad route, there's the H4D200MS, it's a 50MP sensor that shifts itself by 1/2 a pixel in between 4 shots and stitches them internally to a 200MP image.
Or there's the Leica S2 and Pentax 645D. Both are 'only' 40MP, but for anything less than A2 size you can just as easily use a 35mm 20MP sensor.

Bodies, there's the Mamiya / Phase One 645DF, or any Mamiya 645 with a D in its name (ie all but the 645AF). If you're tripod-mounted you probably won't need any of the functions that come with the newer bodies.
Or there's the Alpa 12FPS, a camera designed to have higher IQ by having less shutter-induced shake (less than even a leaf shutter).
Hasselblad, Leica, and Pentax you're stuck with the bodies that you get.

Lenses, the Leica S2 has Leica quality glass. 'nuff said.
Hasselblad, you're getting their name-brand stuff too (used to be made by Zeiss, now by Fuji, either way, it's damn nice).
Phasemiya, there's the 28mm LS which is very sharp but possibly too wide for you, the 'new digital' 35mm I haven't tried but I definitly wasn't impressed by my 'C' copy of the old version.
Alpa, you can use their extremely nice (with pricetags to match) LF 'alpagon' lenses (rebadged Rodenstock Apo Sironar HR). Or you can get it with any mount you like, even EF.
And on all of those bodies you can use lenses with a longer flange via adapter, like Hassy V, Pentacon 6, Bronica, Rollei 6000, Pentax 67, etc etc...


Or realistically, a 6D with a 24mm TSE or 35mm Sigma/Zeiss is going to be more than enough for a simple book that doesn't cost $5 per page to print at stupid resolutions...

ps, a 25-35mm lens on 'FF' (24x36mm) equates to a 38-55mm on '645' (56x37mm once it's cropped, I'll presume you're cropping more panoramic than 3x2).
But don't forget digital 645 sensors aren't as big as 645 film, depending on the sensor you get you may have to get a wider lens to account for a smaller sensor...
« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 05:46:02 PM by dr croubie »
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eml58

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Re: Best Possible IQ
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2013, 06:46:58 PM »
A friend of mine have the latest 80MP Phase One. He made some shots in the Pyrenees this fall, which I saw in high quality 1mx1.5m prints. Incredible dynamics, resolution, color, the lot.

I agree with Eldar Sanj, if you want the best possible IQ, Phase One 645 with the IQ280 Digital Back & perhaps the Schneider 28f/4.5 LS if your using Flash, or the 28f/4.5 AF Phase One Lens if no Flash. Schnieder also make amazingly good Tilt shift Lenses, the new 50 TS Super Angulon I've tried and it's superb.

Problem may be wether or not you can Rent the gear where you are, if in the US I wouldn't see an issue, but because this gear is sooooo expensive it's difficult to Rent in most Countries.

I've toyed with the idea of the Phase one for some time, but you need to be seriously into Landscape or Studio to step up to the cost of this gear. The Images that come out of the IQ280 Back are just amazingly good, but @ 80MP you pay for it.
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Re: Best Possible IQ
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2013, 06:46:58 PM »

Orangutan

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Re: Best Possible IQ
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2013, 07:51:07 PM »
Dearest Sporgon. Stitching will not work as I need to hold the camera steady and then take multiple photos of the same shot every two minutes so the client can delete people that are moving around in the frame and create an empty shot of the place.

And I will not buy, I will rent it all for 4 odd days. Try the shot every day and pick the one with best morning light.

It would be easy for you to do a quick test of the stitching method using the suggestions others have made.  You may also find info on the web about how to do this.  It may take less effort (and cost) do learn this on your own equipment than to learn new equipment.  A quick experiment costs you nothing but a little time.  If it's successful, it's a new technical skill to add to your "kit."


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Re: Best Possible IQ
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2013, 11:38:18 PM »
...Stitching will not work as I need to hold the camera steady and then take multiple photos of the same shot every two minutes so the client can delete people that are moving around in the frame and create an empty shot of the place.

For what it is worth, Martin Evening has a tutorial in his "Adobe Photoshop Ultimate Workhsop" book (at least he did in the CS4 version) on using multiple images to remove tourists from the "bean" in Chicago. You might check with your client to see if this is the sort of thing they are contemplating. (He actually shot about 100+ images over an hour and stacked them in Photoshop to remove the people)
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sanj

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Re: Best Possible IQ
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2013, 12:33:56 AM »
...Stitching will not work as I need to hold the camera steady and then take multiple photos of the same shot every two minutes so the client can delete people that are moving around in the frame and create an empty shot of the place.

For what it is worth, Martin Evening has a tutorial in his "Adobe Photoshop Ultimate Workhsop" book (at least he did in the CS4 version) on using multiple images to remove tourists from the "bean" in Chicago. You might check with your client to see if this is the sort of thing they are contemplating. (He actually shot about 100+ images over an hour and stacked them in Photoshop to remove the people)

Thank you, will check. This is exactly what needs to be done. The question now is, should I shoot this on format better than my 5d3 or not? Would not a larger format help in cleaner post? :)

sanj

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Re: Best Possible IQ
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2013, 12:35:12 AM »
Let me see if I've got this right...It's a coffee table book and the client is doing all the PP work.
Stitch the tripod mounted images using what you have, insuring spot-on camera settings, and move on.
You don't need to make a huge production out of it...when he finishes, you probably won't even recognize it anyway.

Yes, I will not recognize it I am sure. There is complete transparency here. He will clone out people, add sky etc.

sanj

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Re: Best Possible IQ
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2013, 12:37:35 AM »
Thank you all for the valuable insights. I have learnt a lot. Still bit confused, but clarity is coming in.

Am attaching a photo of roughly where I will be. Not exactly here but similar situation.

sanj

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Re: Best Possible IQ
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2013, 12:40:02 AM »
You want "the best", or "the best within budget"?
For backs, there's the IQ180, but there's also the new IQ280. The main advantage of the 280 over the 180 is that the 280 doesn't crap out on long exposures, get one of them for 1min+.
Going the Hasselblad route, there's the H4D200MS, it's a 50MP sensor that shifts itself by 1/2 a pixel in between 4 shots and stitches them internally to a 200MP image.
Or there's the Leica S2 and Pentax 645D. Both are 'only' 40MP, but for anything less than A2 size you can just as easily use a 35mm 20MP sensor.

Bodies, there's the Mamiya / Phase One 645DF, or any Mamiya 645 with a D in its name (ie all but the 645AF). If you're tripod-mounted you probably won't need any of the functions that come with the newer bodies.
Or there's the Alpa 12FPS, a camera designed to have higher IQ by having less shutter-induced shake (less than even a leaf shutter).
Hasselblad, Leica, and Pentax you're stuck with the bodies that you get.

Lenses, the Leica S2 has Leica quality glass. 'nuff said.
Hasselblad, you're getting their name-brand stuff too (used to be made by Zeiss, now by Fuji, either way, it's damn nice).
Phasemiya, there's the 28mm LS which is very sharp but possibly too wide for you, the 'new digital' 35mm I haven't tried but I definitly wasn't impressed by my 'C' copy of the old version.
Alpa, you can use their extremely nice (with pricetags to match) LF 'alpagon' lenses (rebadged Rodenstock Apo Sironar HR). Or you can get it with any mount you like, even EF.
And on all of those bodies you can use lenses with a longer flange via adapter, like Hassy V, Pentacon 6, Bronica, Rollei 6000, Pentax 67, etc etc...


Or realistically, a 6D with a 24mm TSE or 35mm Sigma/Zeiss is going to be more than enough for a simple book that doesn't cost $5 per page to print at stupid resolutions...

ps, a 25-35mm lens on 'FF' (24x36mm) equates to a 38-55mm on '645' (56x37mm once it's cropped, I'll presume you're cropping more panoramic than 3x2).
But don't forget digital 645 sensors aren't as big as 645 film, depending on the sensor you get you may have to get a wider lens to account for a smaller sensor...

Phew! Thx.

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Re: Best Possible IQ
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2013, 12:40:02 AM »

hendrik-sg

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Re: Best Possible IQ
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2013, 05:27:42 AM »
I dont want to offend you, but.....

If i would need (and pay for) this shot i wouldnt give the order to someone woh has to ask in a forum about equipment.

If i take my skills/equipment as a comparision, i would say most bad pics are bad as a result of lacking skill not because of bad equipment.

but anyway two thoughts:

- are the demands so high because the customer knows that a normal FF Shot is not enough, or is this your first order and you want to do your best?
- if there are trees, water, boats or anything other that might move, stitching might be difficult if there is any wind at all.
- maybe do testshot (of anything else) and practise the workflow with the guy who does the PP, costs less than renting MF equipment

For me using unknown equipment (recommended by forum useres) would be a no go, if you do any mistakes, bad settings etc, the results may be worse than with your normal equipment. Example: give a 85ii 1.2 and a 5diii to a rebel shooter who shoots with kit zoom in automatic mode and ask him to take portraits/party pics in low light. I would bet hard money that he will get not even one sharp shot.

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Re: Best Possible IQ
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2013, 05:46:57 AM »
If people are actually moving, not standing still, you could consider a 10 stop ND filter as a way to effectively remove them. 

Probably not telling you anything you don't know, but I'd second this and suggest you give it a try as part of the shoot.  During the very early morning, a 10 stop filter will require fairly long exposures.  Depending upon the light and your aperture, you might be able to push the exposure out to the 2 to 4 minute range.  Most people won't stay still for that long.  And, as if by magic, anyone who is moving won't appear in the final image.  Instant ghost town.  That'll save a lot of work later (even if the work is being done by someone else).  So, give them what they asked for with the multiple shots (to show that you can follow instructions), then give them what they need (so that you become the photographer they'll always turn to.)

You can also stack ND filters, giving significantly longer exposure times and greater people removing ability.  Adding another 3 stop ND, will turn a 4 minute exposure into (in theory) a 32 minute exposure  - but its not that simple - as the sun rises, your exposure times need to reduce, so there's a little experimentation involved.  But you could just set this up on your normal camera with a 20 minute / 25 minute exposure while you play around with the medium format gear.  If you like the results on day one, put the ND filters on the medium format camera on day two and try it with the better gear.
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Re: Best Possible IQ
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2013, 05:46:57 AM »