June 24, 2018, 10:54:47 PM

Author Topic: EOS 5D Mark III & Third Party Batteries  (Read 66282 times)

entlassen

  • EOS Rebel SL2
  • ***
  • Posts: 78
Re: EOS 5D Mark III & Third Party Batteries
« Reply #45 on: December 12, 2013, 02:52:47 PM »
B&H is including a free Watson brand LP-E6 with all their 5D Mark III bodies & kits (as well as their 6D offerings).  Does anyone with the newest 1.2.3 firmware installed on their 5D Mark III who also happens to have one of these Watson batteries know if the battery works?  (I'm curious if B&H is sending out a "free battery" that is incompatible with 1.2.3).

Reference:
5D Mk III: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/847545-REG/Canon_5260A002_EOS_5D_Mark_III.html
Watson LP-E6: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/836612-REG/watson_b_1517_lp_e6_battery_pack_for.html
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 02:55:29 PM by entlassen »

canon rumors FORUM

Re: EOS 5D Mark III & Third Party Batteries
« Reply #45 on: December 12, 2013, 02:52:47 PM »

dgatwood

  • EOS 5DS R
  • ******
  • Posts: 922
  • 300D, 400D, 6D
Re: EOS 5D Mark III & Third Party Batteries
« Reply #46 on: December 12, 2013, 02:57:39 PM »
i have not heard of anyone that have damaged their 5dmk2 with third party batteries

but with my experience... when i was filming with my 5dmk2 i would not use third party batteries as their higher voltage would HEAT up the camera much faster.

That probably means Canon cut corners and used linear regulators where they should have used switching regulators.  No doubt battery life is suboptimal as a result, and that also probably means that high capacity batteries provide little to no advantage.

If Im going to purchase a $2000-$3000 camera Im certainly not going to compromise it with a third party battery that Im not sure how it was made and to what standard. Ive seen what batteries can do if they have a thermal runaway (as poorly made Lithium Ion batteries can do) and its not pleasant.

I've seen that from major manufacturers, too, though, and they almost certainly all buy identical cells from one of only a handful of actual manufacturers anyway.  Also, thermal runaway is more commonly a problem with LiPo packs than with canister cells like these batteries probably use internally.  I mean, it does happen, but not often.  The tech is pretty mature at this point.  You're more likely to cause problems by using a third-party charger with your genuine Canon batteries, IMO.

Anyone remember all the BRICKED IPHONES Apple intentionally damaged with an update back in 2007 when folks tried to jailbreak their phones?  Hope Canon doesn't try THAT!!  But I digress...

It wasn't a jailbreak.  It was an unlock in which they overwrote part of the firmware with garbage data... and didn't make a backup of the real data to restore it if the hack ever broke, which it did....

RustyTheGeek

  • EOS-1D X Mark II
  • *******
  • Posts: 1627
    • Images I've Shot...
Re: EOS 5D Mark III & Third Party Batteries
« Reply #47 on: December 12, 2013, 03:45:06 PM »

Anyone remember all the BRICKED IPHONES Apple intentionally damaged with an update back in 2007 when folks tried to jailbreak their phones?  Hope Canon doesn't try THAT!!  But I digress...

It wasn't a jailbreak.  It was an unlock in which they overwrote part of the firmware with garbage data... and didn't make a backup of the real data to restore it if the hack ever broke, which it did....

It was quite the debate 6 years ago.  I guess it depends on how you were affected.  The longer one has known Apple, the more skeptical one becomes of their innocence in things like this.  Apple has always made great stuff and then bullies everyone about it and brags how smart they are.  Then they whine about the world copying them.  It gets old after a while and it's never really changed after 30 years.

http://www.engadget.com/2007/10/01/a-note-to-both-apple-and-iphone-customers-on-the-v1-1-1-update/

In general, Apple has always been known to be unforgiving and quite the bully when it comes to users trying to use an Apple device any way but the way Apple intends or allows.  (One example was simply wanting to use an iPod without iTunes a few years ago.)  Apple has also always loved to sue the entire world over just about anything.  It was comical in the 90's when they were a small company but now it's a major PITA since they have so much cash.

http://www.electronista.com/articles/12/09/10/could.have.weak.case.in.trademark.dispute/
http://www.digitaltrends.com/international/forget-samsung-apple-now-suing-polish-grocery-store-for-infringement/

**- Warning:  Snark Ahead... -**  ;D
Keep in mind that one never buys an Apple device for personal use/ownership.  That is a myth.  One merely buys the privilege of using it the way Apple intends, to show it off to friends so everyone will spend money to consume Apple content from the App Store and iTunes.  (Or on more Apple devices.)  That's the main reason Apple makes anything now, to generate more revenue in their online stores. 
**- End of Snarkiness -**  :o

After all this is said, don't misunderstand.  I like Apple products in that they are nice, pretty, and well designed/made for the most part.  (As long as they work, then you're sunk.  No repairing Apple stuff, buy another new one.)  Apple products are overpriced to be sure but they are unique and great to use.  It's Apple The Company I could do without.  (Sort of like 'MomCorp' in Futurama.) 

In a perfect world, Apple would make the same great products but then they would shut the hell up and let users do what they like with the wonderful products they paid a lot of money for.

Okay, shoot me.  I digressed my ass off here about Apple in a Canon Battery thread.  Here's the hammer and staples.   :-X
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 03:47:21 PM by RustyTheGeek »
Yes, but what would  surapon  say ??  :D

Rudeofus

  • EOS Rebel T7i
  • ****
  • Posts: 125
Re: EOS 5D Mark III & Third Party Batteries
« Reply #48 on: December 12, 2013, 03:55:15 PM »
Canon changes a protocol to make use of third party accessories impossible or at least a hassle ... good thing they only do this with batteries, and would never even think of such sleazy behavior when it comes to lenses and flashes  :P

Several third party lenses and flashes can now be updated via USB, I wonder when the first batteries and memory cards with some USB connector will hit the market.

Joe M

  • EOS M5
  • ****
  • Posts: 195
Re: EOS 5D Mark III & Third Party Batteries
« Reply #49 on: December 12, 2013, 04:08:49 PM »
Over the years, this "third party battery" discussion has been pretty well done to death.  Of course, what's at issue now is the fact that people seem to think Canon is deliberately nixing out (just as some claim the latest Nikon firmware just did for those folks) usability of third party batteries.  FWIW, I am probably the type of customer that Canon loves.  I will only put Canon batteries into my cameras.  I personally don't understand why someone would shell out thousands of $ for bodies and likely more for lenses and complain that a battery costs "too much".  I noticed in one post that someone stuck a $10 one in their body.  Really?  You want to risk your camera melting by sticking in a $10 battery?  And I think it was the same fellow that said, and I paraphrase " batteries are not rocket science".  No but it is made out of a wicked metal that has been known to melt and destroy certain items.  Case in point is the use in laptops.  Many a recall has been issued over people finding their computers getting pretty hot.  And you want to risk your camera doing the same?  I know the third party users will tell me that it's very rare if ever that it'll happen but for me at least, it's not worth it to put something volatile into my camera that will potentially give me problems.  And for those too that think the cost is too high, the Canons do on occasion go on sale.  I have two originals that came with my bodies and picked up two on sale for $50 each.  Like I said, I may be the ideal Canon customer from their point of view, but from mine, I never have to worry about firmware headaches or chips or heating issues.   

AJ

  • EOS 7D Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 571
Re: EOS 5D Mark III & Third Party Batteries
« Reply #50 on: December 12, 2013, 04:53:37 PM »
I wonder what's next.  Maybe with the next firmware, when you mount a Sigma/Zeiss/Tokina or other third brand lens, it'll say "irregular lens" and you'll have to push a bunch of buttons to get the camera operational.

Very annoying.

dgatwood

  • EOS 5DS R
  • ******
  • Posts: 922
  • 300D, 400D, 6D
Re: EOS 5D Mark III & Third Party Batteries
« Reply #51 on: December 12, 2013, 04:56:17 PM »

As much as I’d like to bash the record companies, I’m going to have to disagree.  People steal music because it’s free and easy.

I think "easy" is probably more significant than "free".  At the time when everybody (*) started stealing music, you could buy songs only in CD-sized collections of a dozen songs, half of which were songs you already owned.  Most of the reason the music industry is in such bad shape is that they dragged their heels kicking and screaming, trying desperately to maintain that broken business model out of pure greed, ignoring the needs of their customer base, until it was too late.  It wasn't just that it was cheap, or that it was easy, but that pirates got a higher quality product (single songs instead of collections) for less money (free) and more conveniently (downloads instead of physical media).

(*) For some small value of everybody.

IMO, that's actually a pretty good analogy for the way Canon is treating their customers with the whole battery issue.  I've been trying to order legitimate Canon batteries from Amazon since I got my 6D back in June or July, and they've been consistently out of stock, with no expected delivery date.  And prior to that, according to various reviews, Amazon was apparently selling counterfeit Canon batteries.  This from one of Canon's official distributors.

Before Canon shuts down the third-party manufacturers, they need to fix the serious supply chain problems that make their own batteries so hard to obtain.  Canon has far bigger problems than the inflated price of their batteries....



B&H is including a free Watson brand LP-E6 with all their 5D Mark III bodies & kits (as well as their 6D offerings).  Does anyone with the newest 1.2.3 firmware installed on their 5D Mark III who also happens to have one of these Watson batteries know if the battery works?  (I'm curious if B&H is sending out a "free battery" that is incompatible with 1.2.3).

They work with my 6D, so they ought to work with the 5DMk3, too.


I saw "I don't want to pay $100 for a battery" from someone, in a $1700 camera?  I don't get it . . . get your camera at the best price possible, then you can afford genuine accessories.

It's not $100 for a battery.  It's $400 for four batteries so that you can always have two in your grip, two on the charger, and the one emergency spare that came with your camera.  The difference between $100 and $40 isn't much, but the difference between $400 and $160 is half the cost of a 600 EX flash.  Given a limited budget, most folks would much rather spend their money on an accessory whose performance is likely to vary significantly between manufacturers, like a flash, rather than on a mere power source.  :)

Also, those batteries are going to get tossed after three or four years when the cells start to fail anyway—even sooner if you're using a device that uses a significant chunk of battery power even when turned off (e.g. anything with GPS)—so you're basically talking about a disposable, consumable item.  In other words, the people who don't blow a hundred bucks on a genuine Canon battery are the same people who don't blow four times the price for genuine Kodak paper or genuine Epson inks—that is to say, most people.  If these were alkaline batteries, nobody would be surprised when people didn't buy genuine Canon batteries.  The fact that the batteries come in packs and are rechargeable a certain number of times doesn't really change things.  :)


Also wondering if Canon even makes their own batteries. I doubt it. I wouldn't be surprised if Energizer makes them for Canon and it's the same battery. Does Canon really have its own manufacturing facility for all the various permutations of batteries their cameras use?

Like pretty much all electronics manufacturers, they almost certainly manufacture their own battery packs, but buy the cells or bags themselves from Sony or one of the other major battery cell makers.  They would never be able to justify the sort of R&D expense needed to build their own cells.  It's a fairly mature commodity market with a high barrier to entry.


Case in point is the use in laptops.  Many a recall has been issued over people finding their computers getting pretty hot.  And you want to risk your camera doing the same?

Laptop batteries are much bigger than the batteries in cameras, often have less packaging to secure them against impact damage, and are charged while you're using them.  IIRC, the overwhelming majority of catastrophic Lithium ion battery failures happen while you're charging them, not when they're idle or in normal use, so that's really not a fair comparison.

Odds are, you're just risking a charger that you can replace for $35....  I mean yes, one could theoretically catch fire while it's in your camera, but I'm pretty sure you're more likely to get struck by lightning on the way to the shoot.  Also, your homeowner's or renter's insurance will almost certainly cover fire damage in the highly unlikely even that it does happen.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: EOS 5D Mark III & Third Party Batteries
« Reply #51 on: December 12, 2013, 04:56:17 PM »

RustyTheGeek

  • EOS-1D X Mark II
  • *******
  • Posts: 1627
    • Images I've Shot...
Re: EOS 5D Mark III & Third Party Batteries
« Reply #52 on: December 12, 2013, 05:03:59 PM »
Over the years, this "third party battery" discussion has been pretty well done to death.  Of course, what's at issue now is the fact that people seem to think Canon is deliberately nixing out (just as some claim the latest Nikon firmware just did for those folks) usability of third party batteries.  FWIW, I am probably the type of customer that Canon loves.  I will only put Canon batteries into my cameras.  I personally don't understand why someone would shell out thousands of $ for bodies and likely more for lenses and complain that a battery costs "too much".  I noticed in one post that someone stuck a $10 one in their body.  Really?  You want to risk your camera melting by sticking in a $10 battery?  And I think it was the same fellow that said, and I paraphrase " batteries are not rocket science".  No but it is made out of a wicked metal that has been known to melt and destroy certain items.  Case in point is the use in laptops.  Many a recall has been issued over people finding their computers getting pretty hot.  And you want to risk your camera doing the same?  I know the third party users will tell me that it's very rare if ever that it'll happen but for me at least, it's not worth it to put something volatile into my camera that will potentially give me problems.  And for those too that think the cost is too high, the Canons do on occasion go on sale.  I have two originals that came with my bodies and picked up two on sale for $50 each.  Like I said, I may be the ideal Canon customer from their point of view, but from mine, I never have to worry about firmware headaches or chips or heating issues.

I can't argue with your logic and for the most part I agree that after spending $1000's on the whole kit, why try to save $xx on a cheap battery.  Everyone will likely agree that the Canon battery is the best choice.  I think most folks are just irritated that they spent $1000's on the whole kit and Canon is simultaneously gouging them on the price of extra batteries and then messing with their freedom to choose another battery where they never did before.  Why go there, Canon?  Just leave it alone.  Why generate ill-will?

The bigger insult is Canon wasting time on this when there are many better and more important things to deal with in the firmware that many have been waiting to see addressed for YEARS.  If Canon wants to mess with battery stuff in the firmware, why not implement some kind of protection algorithm and assist users with protecting their investment regardless of the battery that's used instead of slapping them upside the head for a non-Canon battery.

Let's be honest... if the 3rd party battery is purchased from a reputable maker, it's simply not much different from the OEM battery.  This hasn't been a problem in the past, no reason to worry now.  The battery tech in these cameras, phones, etc is indeed a mature technology after all these years.  We aren't powering a plane or even a laptop.  It's a camera that runs on milliamps of power over time.  And Canon very likely pays a major battery manufacturer to make their batteries just like everyone else.

I also agree that problems during the charging process are more likely whether it's a Canon battery or a 3rd party battery.  That's when things usually go wrong in a bad way.
Yes, but what would  surapon  say ??  :D

RustyTheGeek

  • EOS-1D X Mark II
  • *******
  • Posts: 1627
    • Images I've Shot...
Re: EOS 5D Mark III & Third Party Batteries
« Reply #53 on: December 12, 2013, 05:13:56 PM »

IMO, that's actually a pretty good analogy for the way Canon is treating their customers with the whole battery issue.  I've been trying to order legitimate Canon batteries from Amazon since I got my 6D back in June or July, and they've been consistently out of stock, with no expected delivery date.  And prior to that, according to various reviews, Amazon was apparently selling counterfeit Canon batteries.  This from one of Canon's official distributors.

Before Canon shuts down the third-party manufacturers, they need to fix the serious supply chain problems that make their own batteries so hard to obtain.  Canon has far bigger problems than the inflated price of their batteries....

Laptop batteries are much bigger than the batteries in cameras, often have less packaging to secure them against impact damage, and are charged while you're using them.  IIRC, the overwhelming majority of catastrophic Lithium ion battery failures happen while you're charging them, not when they're idle or in normal use, so that's really not a fair comparison.

Odds are, you're just risking a charger that you can replace for $35....  I mean yes, one could theoretically catch fire while it's in your camera, but I'm pretty sure you're more likely to get struck by lightning on the way to the shoot.  Also, your homeowner's or renter's insurance will almost certainly cover fire damage in the highly unlikely even that it does happen.

I agree on everything above.  No one likes record companies or their business practices.  Now I'm waiting for the eventual backlash to my Apple rant.   LOL!! ;D
Yes, but what would  surapon  say ??  :D

RustyTheGeek

  • EOS-1D X Mark II
  • *******
  • Posts: 1627
    • Images I've Shot...
Re: EOS 5D Mark III & Third Party Batteries
« Reply #54 on: December 12, 2013, 05:23:45 PM »
I wonder what's next.  Maybe with the next firmware, when you mount a Sigma/Zeiss/Tokina or other third brand lens, it'll say "irregular lens" and you'll have to push a bunch of buttons to get the camera operational.

Very annoying.

Yes.  I'm very concerned that Canon isn't proactively 'protecting me' from inferior pictures due to 'incompatible' lenses in case I decide to blame their camera instead of the lens.  Or the camera may fry due to incompatible lens electronics.

Seriously, having an 'incompatible' lens or flash actually happens.  Some 3rd party lenses fail to work correctly on newer generation bodies.  Same goes for flashes.  So that's nothing new.  And I doubt it's by accident.
Yes, but what would  surapon  say ??  :D

dufflover

  • EOS 80D
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
  • OH YEAH!
Re: EOS 5D Mark III & Third Party Batteries
« Reply #55 on: December 12, 2013, 05:25:23 PM »
With the new 7D firmware not offering anything decent for me, this is the sort of reason why I won't be upgrading to it ...
Hurry up Canon and do something with your sensors! :P

JohnUSA

  • EOS Rebel SL2
  • ***
  • Posts: 86
Re: EOS 5D Mark III & Third Party Batteries
« Reply #56 on: December 12, 2013, 06:08:19 PM »
Besides updating camera firmware to make it more difficult to use third-party batteries, Canon has been quietly updating battery chargers to not work with third-party batteries. Here's a copy and paste of my posts on the subject from the "Canon LP-E6 Product Advisory" thread:

The problem is the charger that comes with the 5D3 is different than the 5D2. The 5D3 charger most definitely was 'upgraded' to prevent working/charging third-party batteries such as the four old Maximal batteries I have. The Maximal batteries charge fine on my 5D2 charger but not on the 5D3 charger.

I recently purchased Wasabi batteries and they charge fine on both chargers.

Here's the model numbers of both LC-E6 chargers:
ZFAD - Came with the 5D2 and will charge the old Maximal and new Wasabi batteries with no problem.
AJBC - Came with the 5D3 and will charge the new Wasabi batteries but not the old Maximal batteries.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Update Dec, 27, 2013:

Just purchased a used Canon LC-E6 model number:
ZBAD - Came with a two year old 6D and will charge the old 2 year old Maximal and new Wasabi batteries with no problem.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The 5D3 will display the "Unknown battery..." warning with my two year old Maximal batteries, but the batteries will work fine and camera will remember/register the batteries. The newer Wasabi batteries there is no warning. The Wasabi batteries are about 3+ months old.

Seems to me going forward with the new Canon chargers... buy third-party batteries with third-party chargers to ensure some kind of compatibility.

As mentioned the best LP-E6 third-party battery that will charge with the newer 5D3 Canon charger is the Wasabi. Will the Wasabi battery charge with the next Canon charger and will it work/register with next camera is anyone's guess.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2013, 07:34:02 PM by JohnUSA »

dgatwood

  • EOS 5DS R
  • ******
  • Posts: 922
  • 300D, 400D, 6D
Re: EOS 5D Mark III & Third Party Batteries
« Reply #57 on: December 12, 2013, 06:37:32 PM »
Besides updating camera firmware to make it more difficult to use third-party batteries, Canon has been quietly updating battery chargers to not work with third-party batteries. Here's a copy and paste of my posts on the subject from the "Canon LP-E6 Product Advisory" thread:

The problem is the charger that comes with the 5D3 is different than the 5D2. The 5D3 charger most definitely was 'upgraded' to prevent working/charging third-party batteries such as the four old Maximal batteries I have. The Maximal batteries charge fine on my 5D2 charger but not on the 5D3 charger.

Unlike futzing with the camera firmware, locking down their chargers is potentially reasonable for safety reasons.  The Canon battery chargers may or may not be designed to properly charge batteries with a wide range of capacities, and may not have the sorts of thermal cutoffs and voltage detection that are crucial to prevent overcharging and overheating (which may lead to thermal runaway and thus cause a fire).  Canon probably isn't willing to put in the R&D necessary to ensure that their chargers are safe with batteries that have a variety of capacities.  If that's the case, then you're probably much better off using a (reputable) third-party charger with any third-party batteries whose capacity isn't approximately 1800 mAh.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: EOS 5D Mark III & Third Party Batteries
« Reply #57 on: December 12, 2013, 06:37:32 PM »

CarlMillerPhoto

  • EOS 80D
  • ****
  • Posts: 261
Re: EOS 5D Mark III & Third Party Batteries
« Reply #58 on: December 12, 2013, 07:07:50 PM »
Someone mentioned this earlier, but the new charger I received does not work with 3rd party batteries (all my slightly older chargers that came with my 60D & 5D Mk II do). I know there has been discussion about this being due to internal components, etc., but all things considered that's just BS. Canon just doesn't want you using anything made by a 3rd party manufacturer.
My photography equipment goes here, apparently.

RustyTheGeek

  • EOS-1D X Mark II
  • *******
  • Posts: 1627
    • Images I've Shot...
Re: EOS 5D Mark III & Third Party Batteries
« Reply #59 on: December 12, 2013, 09:17:34 PM »
Someone mentioned this earlier, but the new charger I received does not work with 3rd party batteries (all my slightly older chargers that came with my 60D & 5D Mk II do). I know there has been discussion about this being due to internal components, etc., but all things considered that's just BS. Canon just doesn't want you using anything made by a 3rd party manufacturer.

I have to agree.  While I share dgatwood's opinion that taking steps to safeguard the charger to prevent charging unknown batteries makes sense, it's most likely less about that and more about reducing 3rd party battery use.  Unfortunately this does nothing to change things, it just makes it more trouble and confusing for the user.  If they are going to take this approach, they should be upfront about it and put a note/alert/warning on the charger that says something like 'This charger will not charge non-Canon batteries for safety reasons.' and then at least someone would know they aren't crazy.
Yes, but what would  surapon  say ??  :D

canon rumors FORUM

Re: EOS 5D Mark III & Third Party Batteries
« Reply #59 on: December 12, 2013, 09:17:34 PM »