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Author Topic: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?  (Read 30995 times)

joshmurrah

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Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2013, 02:58:56 PM »
Wow... did a quick look and I definitely have the "points" for any level I'd want, but not the desire to spend the $ on the membership nor am I a pro...   I'm just glad they'll sell the pro gear to mere mortals like myself I guess :)
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Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2013, 02:58:56 PM »

JohnDizzo15

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Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2013, 06:44:12 PM »
CPS is aimed for Professionals, and i'm sure if they were to find out that you were not a professional, you could lose your status.  Being both a professional and a CPS member, i find threads like these kind of sad, but, for those who take advantage and bend the rules for your own gain, karma always comes back around...

What is sad are posts like these as they appear to be judgmental and pompous. What, may I ask are the criteria for being a "professional?" Where is the line drawn? Primary source of income? Your main job? How many gigs you've done? How often someone has paid for an image of yours? The level of ambiguity to this determination is huge to an extent to which I don't believe you have given any thought.

I don't quite understand how anyone is taking advantage or bending the rules. I'm quite certain that if Canon/CPS was overly concerned about making their memberships exclusive only to high level pros, they would do so. I tend to believe based on the way things are set up that they are really only concerned about whether you have spent enough money on their stuff.

I have a career which pays me very well which allows me to have the luxury of owning a lot of gear without having to do photography as a job. I do paid gigs for fun here and there and have plenty of gear which doesn't all necessarily get used on those jobs. Does that make me not a professional? Am I not qualified to get my equipment worked on?

Canon sells products and provides a way for you to get them serviced which also costs money. Who is anyone to tell another photog they shouldn't be allowed to have membership if they are willing to pay the money for both?

I'm pretty sure there is a higher likelihood of running into some bad karma when you are being wrongfully judgmental of others and/or being full of yourself.

Random Orbits

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Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2013, 09:41:52 PM »
CPS is aimed for Professionals, and i'm sure if they were to find out that you were not a professional, you could lose your status.  Being both a professional and a CPS member, i find threads like these kind of sad, but, for those who take advantage and bend the rules for your own gain, karma always comes back around...

What is sad are posts like these as they appear to be judgmental and pompous. What, may I ask are the criteria for being a "professional?" Where is the line drawn? Primary source of income? Your main job? How many gigs you've done? How often someone has paid for an image of yours? The level of ambiguity to this determination is huge to an extent to which I don't believe you have given any thought.

I don't quite understand how anyone is taking advantage or bending the rules. I'm quite certain that if Canon/CPS was overly concerned about making their memberships exclusive only to high level pros, they would do so. I tend to believe based on the way things are set up that they are really only concerned about whether you have spent enough money on their stuff.

I have a career which pays me very well which allows me to have the luxury of owning a lot of gear without having to do photography as a job. I do paid gigs for fun here and there and have plenty of gear which doesn't all necessarily get used on those jobs. Does that make me not a professional? Am I not qualified to get my equipment worked on?

Canon sells products and provides a way for you to get them serviced which also costs money. Who is anyone to tell another photog they shouldn't be allowed to have membership if they are willing to pay the money for both?

I'm pretty sure there is a higher likelihood of running into some bad karma when you are being wrongfully judgmental of others and/or being full of yourself.

Well, professional is somewhat defined on the US Canon website (see below).   Full-time is a pretty high bar and would exclude you and me.

Canon Professional Services (CPS) provides exceptional benefits for individual full-time imaging professionals. CPS members receive exclusive phone and e-mail support, expedited and discounted services and repairs, equipment evaluation loans, service loans, on-site support at select events and shows, plus discounts on Canon Live Learning workshops, and more.

JohnDizzo15

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Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2013, 10:04:21 PM »
CPS is aimed for Professionals, and i'm sure if they were to find out that you were not a professional, you could lose your status.  Being both a professional and a CPS member, i find threads like these kind of sad, but, for those who take advantage and bend the rules for your own gain, karma always comes back around...

What is sad are posts like these as they appear to be judgmental and pompous. What, may I ask are the criteria for being a "professional?" Where is the line drawn? Primary source of income? Your main job? How many gigs you've done? How often someone has paid for an image of yours? The level of ambiguity to this determination is huge to an extent to which I don't believe you have given any thought.

I don't quite understand how anyone is taking advantage or bending the rules. I'm quite certain that if Canon/CPS was overly concerned about making their memberships exclusive only to high level pros, they would do so. I tend to believe based on the way things are set up that they are really only concerned about whether you have spent enough money on their stuff.

I have a career which pays me very well which allows me to have the luxury of owning a lot of gear without having to do photography as a job. I do paid gigs for fun here and there and have plenty of gear which doesn't all necessarily get used on those jobs. Does that make me not a professional? Am I not qualified to get my equipment worked on?

Canon sells products and provides a way for you to get them serviced which also costs money. Who is anyone to tell another photog they shouldn't be allowed to have membership if they are willing to pay the money for both?

I'm pretty sure there is a higher likelihood of running into some bad karma when you are being wrongfully judgmental of others and/or being full of yourself.

Well, professional is somewhat defined on the US Canon website (see below).   Full-time is a pretty high bar and would exclude you and me.

Canon Professional Services (CPS) provides exceptional benefits for individual full-time imaging professionals. CPS members receive exclusive phone and e-mail support, expedited and discounted services and repairs, equipment evaluation loans, service loans, on-site support at select events and shows, plus discounts on Canon Live Learning workshops, and more.

Nice. Thanks for the info. Although I still don't think that the responsibility of determining whether one qualifies is incumbent upon the consumer vs canon (with regard to whether you are pro enough). If they shared the same attitude as awin, none of us would have access very easily.

My feeling also is that the "full-time" part would actually exclude many of us here in this forum alone. Wondering how many people have photography as a full-time job as almost all the people I know that do this rather seriously also have a regular job of some sort alongside photography. I just think there is too much grey area involved for anyone to say that many are taking advantage or bending the rules.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 10:28:00 PM by JohnDizzo15 »

Skatol

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Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2013, 10:37:45 PM »
CPS is aimed for Professionals, and i'm sure if they were to find out that you were not a professional, you could lose your status.  Being both a professional and a CPS member, i find threads like these kind of sad, but, for those who take advantage and bend the rules for your own gain, karma always comes back around...

What is sad are posts like these as they appear to be judgmental and pompous. What, may I ask are the criteria for being a "professional?" Where is the line drawn? Primary source of income? Your main job? How many gigs you've done? How often someone has paid for an image of yours? The level of ambiguity to this determination is huge to an extent to which I don't believe you have given any thought.

I don't quite understand how anyone is taking advantage or bending the rules. I'm quite certain that if Canon/CPS was overly concerned about making their memberships exclusive only to high level pros, they would do so. I tend to believe based on the way things are set up that they are really only concerned about whether you have spent enough money on their stuff.

I have a career which pays me very well which allows me to have the luxury of owning a lot of gear without having to do photography as a job. I do paid gigs for fun here and there and have plenty of gear which doesn't all necessarily get used on those jobs. Does that make me not a professional? Am I not qualified to get my equipment worked on?

Canon sells products and provides a way for you to get them serviced which also costs money. Who is anyone to tell another photog they shouldn't be allowed to have membership if they are willing to pay the money for both?

I'm pretty sure there is a higher likelihood of running into some bad karma when you are being wrongfully judgmental of others and/or being full of yourself.

Well, professional is somewhat defined on the US Canon website (see below).   Full-time is a pretty high bar and would exclude you and me.

Canon Professional Services (CPS) provides exceptional benefits for individual full-time imaging professionals. CPS members receive exclusive phone and e-mail support, expedited and discounted services and repairs, equipment evaluation loans, service loans, on-site support at select events and shows, plus discounts on Canon Live Learning workshops, and more.

Nice. Thanks for the info. Although I still don't think that the responsibility of determining whether one qualifies is incumbent upon the consumer vs canon. If they shared the same attitude as awin, none of us would have access do easily.

My feeling also is that the "full-time" part would actually exclude many of us here in this forum alone. Wondering how many people have photography as a full-time job as almost all the people I know that do this as rather seriously also have a regular job of some sort.

Just my two cents but what qualifies as full time?  According the ACA (Obamacare) 30hours per week is considered full time.  I have a regular full time job that pays for this outrageously expensive hobby.  When not working that job I run a website showcasing my work, some of which is for sale (haven't sold anything yet).
Included in this is travel time to and from location.  Time spent on location.  Then the hours of post.  I could easily spend 30 hours per week on my hobby.  At least this is a job I enjoy.
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Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2013, 10:39:50 PM »

My feeling also is that the "full-time" part would actually exclude many of us here in this forum alone. Wondering how many people have photography as a full-time job as almost all the people I know that do this rather seriously also have a regular job of some sort alongside photography. I just think there is too much grey area involved for anyone to say that many are taking advantage or bending the rules.

It would certainly exclude many here, CR does not require or even recommend that members be full time professionals. 
 
Canon's definition seems to be guidance, and its pretty good guidance, since many who qualify by number of points would not benefit much if any from membership.
 
I agree that it should not be a bone of contention.
 
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expatinasia

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Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2013, 10:39:50 PM »
Anyone have an idea how stringent Canon is about signing up for CPS?

This very much depends on where in the world you are.

Where I am they are very strict, and require proof of working as a pro photographer. In other parts of the world it seems that they are much more relaxed about it, but then the perks are different too.

Good luck!
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Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2013, 10:39:50 PM »

JohnDizzo15

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Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2013, 11:23:16 PM »

My feeling also is that the "full-time" part would actually exclude many of us here in this forum alone. Wondering how many people have photography as a full-time job as almost all the people I know that do this rather seriously also have a regular job of some sort alongside photography. I just think there is too much grey area involved for anyone to say that many are taking advantage or bending the rules.

It would certainly exclude many here, CR does not require or even recommend that members be full time professionals. 
 
Canon's definition seems to be guidance, and its pretty good guidance, since many who qualify by number of points would not benefit much if any from membership.
 
I agree that it should not be a bone of contention.
 
Christmas time is a time of lots of stress.  Relax folks, and have a merry Christmas and Holiday Season.

Lol. Agreed.

Although I was trying to relax, my only Christmas wish was for a CPS membership only to have my dreams shattered by awin when he helped me realize that I'm not pro enough for one.  ;D

serendipidy

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Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2013, 11:28:29 PM »
I don't think I would join any club that didn't want me for a member ;D

PS- Lots of places define professional as getting any payment (even once and for any amount) for your work. Recently, a US college basketball player had to forego a monetary prize ( I think it was $20,000) for a half court shooting contest that he won, because, if he accepted the prize money, it made him a "professional" basketball player and thus ineligible to continue to receive his college scholarship.

« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 11:38:33 PM by serendipidy »
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neuroanatomist

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Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2013, 11:44:04 PM »
Quote from: CPS
Membership is available to individuals (self-employed or employed with a professional imaging company) who play a direct role in the creation of moving or still images on a full-time basis. Applicants must meet Canon equipment requirements to enroll.

Self-employed or employed with a professional imaging company.  Pete Souza is not self-employed, nor is the US Government a professional imaging company.  So according to Canon's definition, the Official White House Photographer is not a professional photographer.  Whatever. 
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jhpeterson

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Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2013, 12:36:20 AM »
CPS is aimed for Professionals, and i'm sure if they were to find out that you were not a professional, you could lose your status.  Being both a professional and a CPS member, i find threads like these kind of sad, but, for those who take advantage and bend the rules for your own gain, karma always comes back around...

What is sad are posts like these as they appear to be judgmental and pompous. What, may I ask are the criteria for being a "professional?" Where is the line drawn? Primary source of income? Your main job? How many gigs you've done? How often someone has paid for an image of yours? The level of ambiguity to this determination is huge to an extent to which I don't believe you have given any thought.

I don't quite understand how anyone is taking advantage or bending the rules. I'm quite certain that if Canon/CPS was overly concerned about making their memberships exclusive only to high level pros, they would do so. I tend to believe based on the way things are set up that they are really only concerned about whether you have spent enough money on their stuff.

I have a career which pays me very well which allows me to have the luxury of owning a lot of gear without having to do photography as a job. I do paid gigs for fun here and there and have plenty of gear which doesn't all necessarily get used on those jobs. Does that make me not a professional? Am I not qualified to get my equipment worked on?

Canon sells products and provides a way for you to get them serviced which also costs money. Who is anyone to tell another photog they shouldn't be allowed to have membership if they are willing to pay the money for both?

I'm pretty sure there is a higher likelihood of running into some bad karma when you are being wrongfully judgmental of others and/or being full of yourself.
John, I don't mean to be pompous or judgemental, but I quite disagree.
I don't have a "day job" to fall back on, so I think it's only fair that Canon looks after those who depend on their equipment for a livelihood.
Being a self-employed editorial photographer is fraught with enough challenges without the worry that your camera manufacturer doesn't have your back. In this day where publications expect content for free, let's just say there are many other careers that, in comparison, pay very well. Too many times I've covered events where the hobbyists have equipment that's better and newer than mine. Most likely theirs has seen far less wear, as they don't have to come up with usable images day after day. If they miss a shot because their gear fails, yes, it's a real disappointment.  If I miss mine, I've probably lost a payday, perhaps a hard-won client, as well as being out of work until it's fixed.
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RunAndGun

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Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2013, 01:40:42 AM »
One of the most accepted definitions of "professional" that I used to hear was that you derived the majority of your income(at least 51%) from it, to be considered a professional.  I think most would agree that hours per week have nothing to do with it.  I have weeks where I don't come anywhere close to 30-40 hrs of work and I have an "off season" where I may or may not pick up my camera for over a month.  I'm a professional by many definitions and 100% of my income for the last 16 or so years has come from being a shooter.  With that being said, I believe a lot of "non-pros" are taking offense for the wrong reasons.  I think many may feel they are bing "looked down upon".  I don't think that's the case.  Just because you're not a "professional" photographer doesn't mean you're not a great photographer, or even that you don't conduct yourself in a professional manner.  I believe most that are speaking out against non-pro's joining CPS, at least this is my viewpoint, is that because the non-pro's can potentially (unintentionally)adversely affect the service that the working pro's need from CPS.  The perfect example popped into my head, because this is about the time of year I start thinking about sending my broadcast lenses into Fujinon for clean & check's and to be serviced if they need them.  It's a first come, first served basis.  So if you're first in line you're in and out in a day or two, if you're 27th in line, well… it's gonna be a while.  So look at it that way.  If a working pro has something happen to a lens, he needs it repaired as fast as possible, but what if he sends it in and there are other repairs in front of him and they are non-pro's that don't "need" the fast service(but have the same level of membership) and they could have just sent their gear in to be repaired through normal Canon consumer channels.

We can argue semantics all day long, but you know in your heart if you are really a full-time, working pro that needs this kind of service and support.

drummstikk

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Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign uph
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2013, 01:48:46 AM »
Too many times I've covered events where the hobbyists have equipment that's better and newer than mine. Most likely theirs has seen far less wear, as they don't have to come up with usable images day after day. If they miss a shot because their gear fails, yes, it's a real disappointment.  If I miss mine, I've probably lost a payday, perhaps a hard-won client, as well as being out of work until it's fixed.

Ironic, isn't it? if you make your living (or part of it) in photography, you can't afford photography equipment. Certainly not the *newest* photography equipment.

How many times have I found myself in the situation you describe? Too many to count.

There was the college indoor track meet where I was shooting with my 50D with a rented 135 f/2.0 right next to a guy with a Nikon D3S with the 200mm 2.0 and a monopod screwed into the base of the camera instead of the lens tripod collar. That poor camera tripod socket must have been under more stress than spandex shorts on a sumo wrestler.

I recall the guy with the brand-spankin' new 1D-X fitted with a 50mm 1.2 and 600ex flash trying to do bounce flash under 30 foot high black ceiling while I struggled along with my 7D with 24-105 and a couple of radio-triggered 283's.

Anyway, I voluntarily abstain from CPS. I didn't know they were charging money now. That's a deal breaker in itself. I would not give up the 15K or so a year I average in photography, but I don't think it fulfill's the spirit of the membership requirements as I understand them. When I was a full-time newspaper photographer and CPS member 15-odd years ago, the main benefit was expedited repairs, but my local emporium  uses a repair vendor that can turn around a shutter replacement in a 40D in less than a week. Plus, I happen to be in a loose, informal association of "part-time pros" who lend each other equipment in emergencies or for testing.

So, speaking for myself only, who needs CPS?
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Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign uph
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2013, 01:48:46 AM »

JohnDizzo15

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Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2013, 02:01:56 AM »
CPS is aimed for Professionals, and i'm sure if they were to find out that you were not a professional, you could lose your status.  Being both a professional and a CPS member, i find threads like these kind of sad, but, for those who take advantage and bend the rules for your own gain, karma always comes back around...

What is sad are posts like these as they appear to be judgmental and pompous. What, may I ask are the criteria for being a "professional?" Where is the line drawn? Primary source of income? Your main job? How many gigs you've done? How often someone has paid for an image of yours? The level of ambiguity to this determination is huge to an extent to which I don't believe you have given any thought.

I don't quite understand how anyone is taking advantage or bending the rules. I'm quite certain that if Canon/CPS was overly concerned about making their memberships exclusive only to high level pros, they would do so. I tend to believe based on the way things are set up that they are really only concerned about whether you have spent enough money on their stuff.

I have a career which pays me very well which allows me to have the luxury of owning a lot of gear without having to do photography as a job. I do paid gigs for fun here and there and have plenty of gear which doesn't all necessarily get used on those jobs. Does that make me not a professional? Am I not qualified to get my equipment worked on?

Canon sells products and provides a way for you to get them serviced which also costs money. Who is anyone to tell another photog they shouldn't be allowed to have membership if they are willing to pay the money for both?

I'm pretty sure there is a higher likelihood of running into some bad karma when you are being wrongfully judgmental of others and/or being full of yourself.
John, I don't mean to be pompous or judgemental, but I quite disagree.
I don't have a "day job" to fall back on, so I think it's only fair that Canon looks after those who depend on their equipment for a livelihood.
Being a self-employed editorial photographer is fraught with enough challenges without the worry that your camera manufacturer doesn't have your back. In this day where publications expect content for free, let's just say there are many other careers that, in comparison, pay very well. Too many times I've covered events where the hobbyists have equipment that's better and newer than mine. Most likely theirs has seen far less wear, as they don't have to come up with usable images day after day. If they miss a shot because their gear fails, yes, it's a real disappointment.  If I miss mine, I've probably lost a payday, perhaps a hard-won client, as well as being out of work until it's fixed.

Definitely don't think you are either one of those things. Awin on the other hand....

Anyhow, while I respect your opinion, I still fail to understand how not allowing certain classes of photographers to have membership would help your cause. As it stands, there is a tiered setup for membership which includes one type that has expedited service as well as other perks. I know several photographers that regularly utilize that membership and have never had a problem having all their needs met in a timely fashion. So unless having such an open enrollment process adversely affects your ability to have your needs met somehow, I don't see what the issue is.

The reason Awin's comments bothered me was because they were full of assumption and judgment all of which were unfounded.

When it comes down to it, there are countless variations in need and types of photographers who do all different levels of work out there. As such, the grey area for what would be defined as "professional" is huge. Do we base it on generated income, number of jobs, frequency, type of work, etc?

expatinasia

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Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2013, 02:40:02 AM »
As it stands, there is a tiered setup for membership which includes one type that has expedited service as well as other perks.

Just so we are all clear, what you write there is not a global standard.

There is only tiered setup in certain countries, and as this is a global forum with members from around the world I just wanted to stress that.

Where I am, you are either a member or not, there is no tiered setup. And from what I have read on these forums and others, the benefits can be very different as well.
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Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2013, 02:40:02 AM »