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Author Topic: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Not Coming? [CR1]  (Read 12375 times)

ME

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Not Coming? [CR1]
« Reply #30 on: December 14, 2013, 12:03:07 PM »
They have decided to name it the 8D.
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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Not Coming? [CR1]
« Reply #30 on: December 14, 2013, 12:03:07 PM »

unfocused

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Not Coming? [CR1]
« Reply #31 on: December 14, 2013, 12:10:56 PM »
... I can't imagine Canon not releasing a 7D II, especially after they clearly said they will be doing something special with it. There is definitely pent up demand. People don't talk much while they are all "pent up", so I figure this is just rumor trolling going on...someone wanting to get a rise. People will talk and rave and hate once the thing is announced...

Exactly. Some troll decides to stir things up and watch everyone scurry. Gives CR Guy some badly needed content, even if it's silly.

My take is that Canon feels no need to rush the 7DII since Nikon had been dragging their feet. While the 7D is getting a little long in the tooth, the D300S looks like a dinosaur in comparison. 7D is still very competitive against the 70D (in fact it's still a better model for stills shooters) and despite all the wailing on forums, the newer Nikon and Sony sensors aren't that much better.

I actually think Canon may be feeling a little pressure because of all that pent-up demand. People are expecting something revolutionary. They could have gotten away with an incremental upgrade a year ago, but the longer they wait, the higher the expectations become. I'm not expecting some super camera with full frame image quality at 1 million ISO, but I think at this point they might not feel they can just slap the 70D sensor in it, add the 5DIII autofocus and call it good.
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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Not Coming? [CR1]
« Reply #32 on: December 14, 2013, 12:16:04 PM »
It seems like a high end APS-C camera would have a higher profit margin than a mid-low level one.  Similar to the automobile industry, the difference between a Cadillac and a Chevy is negligible when it comes to sourcing parts, but the profit on a Cadillac is higher, because your paying for "a Cadillac".

Other than a magnesium body, what are the REAL differences between a 70D and a 7D?  The menu system for sure, but that's easy to change...  The DIGIC processor...?

My point is, they have more in common than in difference.
If you look at the 60D / 7D, the two big differences were the auto focus system and the frame rate. They both more/less used the same sensor and had the same image quality. Both sold quite well.  The AF system of the 7D is still superior to that of the 70D, except in live view....

A 7D2, with dual digic5+ (or better) could run a far better version of live view focusing and should have sufficient computing power to do things like face-tracking and to keep the focus on that face.... or bird... or whatever... A 7D2 with 63 point normal AF would beat the pants off of the 70D for normal AF. The rumoured 10 or 12 frames per second would appeal to action shooters.

And just like the 60D 7D pair, odds are that both the 7D2 and 70D would sell well.
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thfifthcrouch

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Not Coming? [CR1]
« Reply #33 on: December 14, 2013, 12:20:13 PM »
TCs are cool but they do represent a loss in f/stops, slightly degraded images and the need for higher ISOs.  So I kinda think that it becomes a wash vs a crop frame.  But tiz a good point about tracking a bird with a bigger view finder.
If the lens is good enough (eg the 300 II or the 600 II), they appear to take TC's better than the current (well, 60D) generation of crop sensors to get tighter framing than the lens offers natively:

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=748&Camera=736&Sample=0&FLI=0&API=0&LensComp=748&CameraComp=453&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=1&APIComp=0

The loss of an f-stop is something that levels some of the gap between the two, but with the latest generation of Canon SLR's, there's more than a stop difference between FF and crop.

However in crop cameras defense, AF takes a hit with a TC, so you'd need better AF on FF to bridge that gap. Also, at the price point, its much easier to make a smaller mirror flap faster and a smaller shutter have a higher flash sync speed.

Well when I said wash, I was thinking the full frame has a rather slight but really inconsequential advantage.  With the auto focus, shutter mechanism and flash sync speed thrown in, it is a wash.   ;)  Anyway there is no free lunch when it comes to reach and really in the long run doesn't really matter if you use crop or full.  I did look at the sample from The Digital Picture and in fairness to the 60d the default sharpener is set low.  He has noticed that in his reviews of some of the crop frames.  Probably an effort to make noise appear lower then it actually is.  If you take that into consideration, there really not that far apart.  Personally if I can get the reach without the hassle of a tc I'll take it!
« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 12:29:52 PM by thfifthcrouch »

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Not Coming? [CR1]
« Reply #34 on: December 14, 2013, 12:28:44 PM »
... I can't imagine Canon not releasing a 7D II, especially after they clearly said they will be doing something special with it. There is definitely pent up demand. People don't talk much while they are all "pent up", so I figure this is just rumor trolling going on...someone wanting to get a rise. People will talk and rave and hate once the thing is announced...

Exactly. Some troll decides to stir things up and watch everyone scurry. Gives CR Guy some badly needed content, even if it's silly.

My take is that Canon feels no need to rush the 7DII since Nikon had been dragging their feet. While the 7D is getting a little long in the tooth, the D300S looks like a dinosaur in comparison. 7D is still very competitive against the 70D (in fact it's still a better model for stills shooters) and despite all the wailing on forums, the newer Nikon and Sony sensors aren't that much better.

I actually think Canon may be feeling a little pressure because of all that pent-up demand. People are expecting something revolutionary. They could have gotten away with an incremental upgrade a year ago, but the longer they wait, the higher the expectations become. I'm not expecting some super camera with full frame image quality at 1 million ISO, but I think at this point they might not feel they can just slap the 70D sensor in it, add the 5DIII autofocus and call it good.

Exactly! I am honestly glad Canon is taking a bit more time on it. I'd rather have something truly worthy of an upgrade, rather than an incremental update that might just as well be done with firmware and maybe a send-it-in minor hardware update.


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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Not Coming? [CR1]
« Reply #35 on: December 14, 2013, 01:00:45 PM »
Probably has more to do with the Canon 6d reaching the 1500.00 dollar price mark (and sometimes lower).  If the 7d mark ii comes in over that it, it becomes maybe a niche commodity that doesn't sell all that well.  I think the market looks at full frame as the complete item.  The biggest reason for crop was affordability and if it loses that it could be phased out.

My taughts exactly. I beleive that both Nikon (D400) and Canon (7DMk ii) are realising that these models wouldn't sell as much anymore as they could have 3/4 years ago.

jrista

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Not Coming? [CR1]
« Reply #36 on: December 14, 2013, 01:05:11 PM »
Probably has more to do with the Canon 6d reaching the 1500.00 dollar price mark (and sometimes lower).  If the 7d mark ii comes in over that it, it becomes maybe a niche commodity that doesn't sell all that well.  I think the market looks at full frame as the complete item.  The biggest reason for crop was affordability and if it loses that it could be phased out.

My taughts exactly. I beleive that both Nikon (D400) and Canon (7DMk ii) are realising that these models wouldn't sell as much anymore as they could have 3/4 years ago.

Nah. The 6D is absolutely NO alternative for the 7D. The frame size has nothing to do with the purpose of the 7D, so the price point of the 6D has no bearing on whether we will see a 7D II or not. Canon has also shown little interest in directly competing model for model with their competitors...the 7D has long held a fairly unique position in the DSLR world, and not even the D300S was ever really comparable. There is a huge amount of pent up anticipation for the 7D II, and I honestly can't imagine Canon ignoring that.

The true full-frame counterpart of the 7D is the 1D X, not the 6D...so trying to draw parallels between the two is almost laughable.

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Not Coming? [CR1]
« Reply #36 on: December 14, 2013, 01:05:11 PM »

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Not Coming? [CR1]
« Reply #37 on: December 14, 2013, 01:06:22 PM »
You might have only needed a 400mm lens on a crop but now you need a 600mm on a FF so it encourages sales of more expensive lenses.

That is simply not true.  A 400mm lens on a cropped FF image is exactly the same as 400mm on a crop sensor.  The only [current] benefits of a crop sensor is sensor/camera production costs, cropped image resolution, image, fps, and lens size/weight. 

A crop camera has a higher magnification VF (although it is overall smaller) means that subjects are easier to focus on and compose accurately even if they have the same pixel density.
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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Not Coming? [CR1]
« Reply #38 on: December 14, 2013, 02:10:50 PM »
Probably has more to do with the Canon 6d reaching the 1500.00 dollar price mark (and sometimes lower).  If the 7d mark ii comes in over that it, it becomes maybe a niche commodity that doesn't sell all that well.  I think the market looks at full frame as the complete item.  The biggest reason for crop was affordability and if it loses that it could be phased out.

My taughts exactly. I beleive that both Nikon (D400) and Canon (7DMk ii) are realising that these models wouldn't sell as much anymore as they could have 3/4 years ago.

Nah. The 6D is absolutely NO alternative for the 7D. The frame size has nothing to do with the purpose of the 7D, so the price point of the 6D has no bearing on whether we will see a 7D II or not. Canon has also shown little interest in directly competing model for model with their competitors...the 7D has long held a fairly unique position in the DSLR world, and not even the D300S was ever really comparable. There is a huge amount of pent up anticipation for the 7D II, and I honestly can't imagine Canon ignoring that.

The true full-frame counterpart of the 7D is the 1D X, not the 6D...so trying to draw parallels between the two is almost laughable.

Gotta agree here, with the one exception that the 5d3 would be meshed in the middle there (The true full-frame counterpart of the 7D is the 1D X, and ato a lesser extent the 5d3 - not the 6D)

this one is difficult for me because I really have no use for such a camera.  I owned and rocked the 7d for 2 years before upgrading to full frame - and the work I'm doing really doesn't scream for more range or fps - which is the major attraction of the 7d line...

the odd thing though from a marketing perspective is who is the end buyer of a 7d?  I see all this talk here about it primarily from bird shooter who have these giant expensive lenses.  Is there really that much $$$ to be made with bird photography, or are we talking about a consumer segment with lots of disposable income  ----if both canon and nikon have determined the target group to be the latter, then yeah I can see them phasing that out - If your spending $4000 + on long lenses for a hobby, then well, you can afford a 1dx. 

The missing piece to this is the other side of the market.  I look at myself and the reasons I bought the 7d as opposed to a 5d2 - I knew the IQ was better on the 5d2, but the price was pretty high in comparison (when i was looking the 7d with lens was at $1800, and the 5d2 was at $2700 body only).  I was on a very tight budget and knew that the only lens I had prior to the purchase was EF-S - so to really jump to the 5d2 it meant shelling out closer to $3400 (more with taxes). 

BUT --- Canon has found a way around that now --- wow if i had a potential 6d as an option back then, yeah, would have been all over it.

So what is the target market for a 7d2?   If canon determines its hobbyists with deep pockets then yeah, kill that line.  what is the 7d line best for --- sports, action, birding ---  if you don't need the advanced servo tracking, if you shoot landscapes and portraits - then the only reason to go with a 7d2 as opposed to a FF option is price - and the 6d is quite a bargain if your starting with photography and looking for that bump (
especially if the 7d2 is going to be closer to 2K).

iIf Canon is in fact reconsidering the 7d2 - then it's all about the target market for such a camera --- well that and competition and as many have pointed out --- it seems like nikon is making the same decision - why bother with a pro crop for sports and bird shooters when the bulk of that market segment has more disposable income than most working pros do....

 
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Robert Welch

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Not Coming? [CR1]
« Reply #39 on: December 14, 2013, 02:12:43 PM »
This rumor sounds very credible to me. Just looking at the current state of the DSLR market, it's taken a severe tumble in just the last year, and there isn't much reason to think there would be a major change in that direction.

I think Canon is simply seeing the writing on the wall, there is no more market for a $2k APS-c camera, no matter how good it is. At least not enough of one to justify tooling up to make such a camera. The 'pent up demand' for one probably went away when they came out with the 5DmkIII and 6D cameras. The pros and serious amatures probably have largely gone that direction. How much better can they make the 7DmkII over the 7D? Or better than the 70D? Would they be able to see enough profit after making the investment to manufacture such a camera?

Given the decline in sales for all the camera companies, they have to tighten up on new camera releases. They can only afford to make cameras they are certain will sell very well. Also, given the exchange rates and need to keep the pricing on new cameras as high as possible, a high-end APS-c camera would simply be to costly for an adequate volume of sales. I'm convinced these are the metrics Canon (and Nikon) have determined, and the only cameras they can sell much above the $1,200 range are going to be full frame models. That means, no 7DmkII.

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Not Coming? [CR1]
« Reply #40 on: December 14, 2013, 02:23:36 PM »
This thread reeks of trolling by CR.

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Not Coming? [CR1]
« Reply #41 on: December 14, 2013, 02:52:00 PM »
Maybe Canon is just trying to goose sales of the remaining stock of 7D?

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Not Coming? [CR1]
« Reply #42 on: December 14, 2013, 03:15:53 PM »
Bizarre as this is one camera that had been straight out mentioned to the press from the highest levels of Canon themselves.

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Not Coming? [CR1]
« Reply #42 on: December 14, 2013, 03:15:53 PM »

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Not Coming? [CR1]
« Reply #43 on: December 14, 2013, 03:18:12 PM »
It's plausible, Canon are probably trying to steer people to full frame and protect their more expensive models. The quality produced by new crop sensors is good enough in most sensors some pro's might not feel the need to buy more expensive bodies. You might have only needed a 400mm lens on a crop but now you need a 600mm on a FF so it encourages sales of more expensive lenses.

Hah good luck with getting everyone to jump to the $20,000 lenses. Plus what about all those serious birders who already have those and still like the extra reach?

I mean if they manage a 39MP FF at 8fps at the 5 series range then I guess it wouldn't be such an odd move, and maybe that is what they need to do anyway. But that is sure not like the old Canon of late so it seems doubtful.


LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Not Coming? [CR1]
« Reply #44 on: December 14, 2013, 03:25:43 PM »
You might have only needed a 400mm lens on a crop but now you need a 600mm on a FF so it encourages sales of more expensive lenses.

That is simply not true.  A 400mm lens on a cropped FF image is exactly the same as 400mm on a crop sensor.  The only [current] benefits of a crop sensor is sensor/camera production costs, cropped image resolution, image, fps, and lens size/weight. 

Umm yeah but who cares a whit whether it projects the same image, that's utterly meaningless to the reach limited photographer. The part I bolded is kinda THE point though no? When you are talking long lengths and reach limited who cares a white about FOV and all that nonsense, all you care about it pixels per duck and the current aps-c generation has so far always had higher photosite density so yeah you would need a longer lens to make up for it (and if you were already there then you are stuck).

Quote
Cropped image resolution is a valid issue, but the 1Dx and D4 prove, for most people, that image is not about mp,

But for THIS market it was all about the photosite density.


Quote
  While the current D800 may be "slow" in that regard, I would be very surprised if the next iteration did not provide for 6+ fps, and I suspect the same will be true that Canon's first or second "big" mp cameras will also solve or come close to solving the fps issue.

Yeah as I said they could at least get to 39MP on FF and at 8fps and at a 5 series price and body size then sure. I haven't seen Canon wanting to give that much to the non 1 series ranges though so it seems doubtful. It would be quite an exciting move if they did though! If it just arrives in an $8000 brick that would still leave many of the 7D series crowd out in the cold for another year or two or three. But who knows maybe they want to really jump back and be kings and again and will pop out a 5D or 2D at 7-8fps, 39MP, high low ISO DR, 4k compressed video, 2k RAW or 12-14bit lightly compressed (and without smearing like 5D3 without ML) and the same low moire/aliasing of the 5D3. That would be a heck of a beast.



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Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Not Coming? [CR1]
« Reply #44 on: December 14, 2013, 03:25:43 PM »