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Author Topic: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts  (Read 16409 times)

dilbert

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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2013, 02:01:16 AM »
It’s possible that Canon is waiting for Nikon to play their hand first.

If that is the case then a "Canon answer" to Nikon would be at least 1 year "later", possibly longer.

Maybe the problem for Canon is that the 7DII would be limited to the American (and possibly European) market. If it is a more expensive camera than the 70D and is $2000 or more, then what will that do to the number of people that will buy them?

How long until the American/European market catches on to mirrorless?

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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2013, 02:01:16 AM »

Sabaki

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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2013, 03:35:13 AM »
A question bandied about often: "Which body? 6D or 70D/7D II?"

What I keep asking myself is, why did Canon create the 6D and I keep coming up with one answer: Every kit bag should have a APSC & A Full Frame body.

Although we all dream of having a single body that can do it all but current technology is just not capable enough. APSC can't do DR or control noise like a FF and full frame cannot extend the focal length of a lens by 1.6.

So my answer to 6D or 70D/7D is both. Well, unless your photography ambitions are focused on a single genre.

The 7D II will happen. I feel too that it will usher in a level of performance not yet seen in an APSC body. Basically, I believe it will be a revolution.

More AF points, full weather sealing (fingers crossed), dual slot cards and my personal most wanted, ability to control Speedlites in camera.

Canon must push the envelope with the 7D II or I fear the next gen Canon bodies will be leagues behind other manufacturers.
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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2013, 04:04:24 AM »
I think you are right.  The 7D name is a extremely valuable property.  Canon has sold a ton of them, and won't let it die.

On the other hand with every other manufacturer being in the "small sensor" market, Canon maybe wants to reserve the one-digit names for full frame cameras and thus has to invent an altogether naming scheme for the 7d successor? This would at least square with the "no 7d2" rumor and the bit of an eye wink about it.

WPJ

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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2013, 04:28:10 AM »
I think you are right.  The 7D name is a extremely valuable property.  Canon has sold a ton of them, and won't let it die.

On the other hand with every other manufacturer being in the "small sensor" market, Canon maybe wants to reserve the one-digit names for full frame cameras and thus has to invent an altogether naming scheme for the 7d successor? This would at least square with the "no 7d2" rumor and the bit of an eye wink about it.

it could be a,D17 or a D77....smiles...

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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2013, 04:31:59 AM »
it could be a,D17 or a D77....smiles...

They could also stop using cryptic number names at all, like when software manufacturers did the seemingly impossible some years ago and dropped version numbers ("Office 15"), adapting yars ("Office 2013") that have an actual meaning. How about Canon "wildlife fantastic" :-> ?

AJ

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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2013, 04:58:14 AM »
I too think there will be a 7D2 with some break-through feature, probably something to do with video.  It'll cost at least $1500.  Early adopters will flock to buy it. 

Three months after, there will be an 80D which will incorporate the same feature.  It'll cost significantly less.  Some features will be missing from the 80D that the 7D2 has (e.g. AF micro-adjust).

Three months after that the same video feature will hit the Rebel line.

Proven recipe.  Why wouldn't they go for it again.

Albi86

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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2013, 07:39:08 AM »

Canon's goal is not convert people from APS-C to full frame, Canon wants to sell enthusiasts two cameras, one full frame and one APS-C.

I believe you're right in theory, but how is that feasible?

I believe that for most people a 5D3 is a more sensible investment than, say, a 6D + 70D. In fact, if the 6D had the same AF as the 70D, maybe people would have dropped their 5D3 en masse, as it happened with D800/D600 when many people realized that 24 MP and 39 AF points were good enough and worth more money in their pockets.

At this point, the 6D2 will probably have at least the AF system of the 70D, and for most people that would be a deal worth throwing out their APS-C. Simply because at that point, you'd rather spend that 1-2 grands on a good tele instead of a pro crop body. Who would spend more money on a crop? Some for sure, but maybe not enough.

It comes a time when things get good enough and expensive yet marginal upgrades become inconvenient. The 7D/70D AF is not the best out there, but I believe it satisfies the most. So in this respect, if the price of such a crop body goes too high, it might lose the competition with entry-level FF, even if specs are better.

The real IQ upgrade at that point becomes what Canon seems most reluctant to provide: a new sensor tech.

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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2013, 07:39:08 AM »

Don Haines

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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2013, 08:01:12 AM »
it could be a,D17 or a D77....smiles...

They could also stop using cryptic number names at all, like when software manufacturers did the seemingly impossible some years ago and dropped version numbers ("Office 15"), adapting yars ("Office 2013") that have an actual meaning. How about Canon "wildlife fantastic" :-> ?
I would like a killer camera to take pictures of fluffy the cat, but somehow I don't think sales would be too good if they marketed a camera called the "Kitten Killer" :)
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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2013, 08:22:16 AM »
What I keep asking myself is, why did Canon create the 6D and I keep coming up with one answer: Every kit bag should have a APSC & A Full Frame body.

Although we all dream of having a single body that can do it all but current technology is just not capable enough. APSC can't do DR or control noise like a FF and full frame cannot extend the focal length of a lens by 1.6.

So my answer to 6D or 70D/7D is both. Well, unless your photography ambitions are focused on a single genre.

That's what I thought too but now I'm considering replacing my 7D by a 5DMkIII because I like using two bodies, but the IQ of the 7D just can't compete with my 5D MkII. I've become a little less interested in the really long focal lengths so I might just be able to live without a (Canon) crop sensor.
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jdramirez

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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2013, 08:22:26 AM »
Yes. The 7D is a highly respected camera and Canon isn't going to abandon the model. If they didn't do it with the 5D. They won't with the 7D.

I simply hope Canon won't do with the 7D what they did with the 5D MKII: Make it's successor half the camera everyone expected. The MKIII rode on the laurels of the MKII pedigree. And Canon used that pedigree to sell the MKIII.

I love my Canon 50D and mostly love my 5D MK II. An extra stop or two of ISO would be nice. I would like the ergonomics closer to the MKIII. And love MF DR. Still, these cameras are capable of creating just about any image any other DSLR can do except for the extremes. Which is about .005% of photographers.

If Canon wants to make halfies, that's fine with me. I'll just wait for something that rocks for my needs. If I want to spend money, there's lots of lenses, lights, stands and other gear to buy in the meantime!

What were you expecting of the mkiii? I feel as though all of the complaints about the mkii were addressed and Canon created a near perfect camera... with a less than perfect price point.
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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2013, 09:39:13 AM »
I am convinced canon will bring a 7D II. I expect it to be a modest iteration.
As un-innovative as they can possibly get away with!

Specifically:
24 MP sensor, only slightly better DR (+ 0.5 EV) and less banding/noise @hi-ISO (good to 6400)
dual-pixel AF with more than 19 but less than 61 sensors (45?)
9 fps
Some slightly better video crap, but not 4k raw
Built in wifi and GPS
Maybe built-in RT radio flash Controller
Articulated LCD, maybe touchscreen
USD/€ 2299

They will sell a decent number to sports/action/birders/wildlifers.
And buy them some more time for the transition to mirrorless.




It will be too little too late.

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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2013, 10:02:08 AM »
<strong>A pro APS-C camera possible?<br />
I think, your arguments are all quite correct.

I believe, there is a market for such a camera and I also believe that the canon people aren't that blind an stu**d to not see that market. But I am not sure what reasons are leading them to the marketing decisions of the last few months and years. So I would say, that everything is possible.

But I hope, they will built a camera as good as the 7D was when it was approaching the market and that they will bring it to the market soon and at a decent price.
sometimes you have to close your eyes to see properly.

Marauder

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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2013, 10:14:24 AM »
I've been a long time watching this page and reading the forum, albeit as a 'guest.'  But this particular rumour has 'brought me out of the wood work,' so to speak.  I have the 7D (and also a T3i) and I shoot 'things that move' for the most part--birds in flight, aircraft etc.  I have to say that I am distressed by this rumour and I hope it's not true.  The 7D II, in the format that has been repeatedly stated for it, would be a remarkable camera for someone who likes to take wildlife/nature shots, as well as other "action" photography.  Although the 70D looks to be a great camera, I don't see it as being a worthy 7D replacement.  It only beats the 7D in a few areas where technical improvements allow it, such as DPAF giving greatly improved Live and Video focussing, both of which are of secondary importance to me, and to many other shooters.  Moreover, in other areas it merely "matches" the 7D, having the same 19 point AF system.  There's certainly nothing wrong with the 19 point AF system, with all of them being cross-type, but it is an older system and it is one of the items I am most anxious to see improved upon in a genuine 7D replacement, preferably with something similar to the 61 point AF on the 5D III and IDX.  As if being merely "equal" to the aging 7D wasn't already enough to make the 70D unequal to the task of replacing the 7D, it is outright inferior in a couple areas.  Certainly, many might say that it's only losing one fps, but that's still a step DOWN from the 2009 7D.  More importantly, the smaller buffer means fewer images captured in a burst, which is a much bigger deal.  And it loses two of the most useful AF modes, the AF Expansion and the Spot AF, both of which have come in very handy.  I usually use AF Expansion when tracking BIF, especially if there is a background that might distract Zone mode.  And I've found Spot AF can be remarkably handy, even in Servo mode, when trying to get a bird through foliage.  As both AF Expansion and Spot AF are missing from the 70D, it cannot match all of the shooting scenarios of the 7D.  None of this is to imply that the 70D is a bad camera.  I think it's a worthy successor to the 60D and it raises the xxD line to a higher level, just a bit below the 7D as a wildlife/sports/action camera.  I was actually happy to see the 70D so well spec'd, not because I want one, but because it raised the bar on what we could expect from a TRUE 7D successor.  I keep reading that the 70D doesn't give room for the APC 7D Mark II, and that the rumoured spec isn't enough to justify the expected price.  I don't agree at all!  I'd LOVE to see the 7D Mark II come out with the rumoured Spec--24MP DPAF, 10-12 fps, dual Digic 5+ (or 6) sensor and a nice deep buffer, and a greatly improved 61 point AF system.  That is VASTLY better than the 70D for someone who wants a high performance camera that will give greatly improved odds of capturing an amazing "never come again" moment. 
I also keep reading about how the price drop on the 6D makes the 7D II obsolete.  It's been stated repeatedly by others why the 6D doesn't figure into the matrix, but I guess I'll add my voice to that since it seems to still come up repeatedly.  The 6D is NOT a competitor to the 7D Mark 2.  It's not even a competitor to the 70D for that matter!  Not for someone who shoots fast moving objects.  If I didn't already have a 7D and my choices were between a 7D, a 70D and a 6D at the same price, I'd go for the 7D, with the 70D my second choice. The 6D would be a distant third.  Again, I'm not knocking the 6D, IQ is apparently amazing, but a sluggish AF, burst and buffer make it an inadequate choice for a steady diet of photographing fast moving subjects.  I see the 6D (like the 5D II before it) being aimed at a completely different kind of photographer, with very different needs.  Indeed, the 6D is much more of a spiritual successor to the 5D II than is the 5D III! Anyone who buys a 6D over a 70D (or 7D) with the purpose of shooting fast moving objects has, quite simply, bought the wrong camera.  If the 6D isn't really a competitor for the 70D and 7D, than that goes DOUBLE for the 7D II!  I'd be willing to pay substantially more for a crop-framed 7D II over a reduced 6D, because it's a better camera for the kind of shooting I do!  If you shoot weddings, landscapes and models, than by all means the 6D, with it's better high ISO IQ and it's full-frame sensor is the better choice--but it was never designed as an "action" based camera. 
Now the 5D III is a much more attractive substitute to a 7D or 70D.  It has the superb 61 Point AF system, combined with a decent 6 fps frame rate and a decent buffer.  But it still trades a frame per second to the 70D and two fps under the 7D, and that can be significant.  Weighted against that, it's AF system is superior to either, so you may still actually get more "keepers" than the 19 point AF system of the 7D and 70D.  But...it's vastly more expensive than the 7D and 70D, and substantially more expensive than the proposed 7D II.  If the 7D II has an advanced AF system based on the 5D III and 1DX, then the AF advantage for the 5D III goes away.  In addition, if the 7D II is 10 or 12 fps, then it will be 4-6 fps faster than the 5D III.  Again, that is a huge bonus for a bird/sports/action photographer!  Also, like many other photographers here, I LIKE the crop frame!  I like that I can get tighter framing on a small subject like a bird with my hand-holdable 100-400L lens.   
As to the notion of the 7D replacement moving to the cinema line--*yawn*.  Count me out then.  I'm not video averse.  I realize the camera must be versatile and flexible, and I welcome DPAF and all the Live View and Video benefits it brings, but I'm not looking for a "video first" camera. 
So, to sum up, I REALLY hope that this rumour is a myth and that the 7D II is released next year, with all the promised features.  I'd love it if they made it a 'mini 1DX' style camera, with the full 12 fps, 24 MP DPAF crop sensor, deep buffer, 61 point AF system.  I'd also love for it to have the 1DX AF scenarios, for customizing Servo mode for different types of subject!  That'd be cool! 
Canon, please make the 7D II a reality!!!!!!!!
Wow! That has to be the best first post EVER! Welcome to the forum!

Thank you!  :)  I am enjoying reading all the posts.  It's nice to see that others are as hopeful and excited at the prospect of a 7D II, regardless of what it's called.  I tend towards thinking the 7D's rich reputation and legacy will be continued, but I'm more interested in the prototype that's been described in rumours seeing the light of day---a rose by any other name, as it were.  Still, I think 7D Mark II has a nice ring to it!   ;D 
If a 7D IIish camera doesn't release, I'll probably go for a 5D Mark III in time.  Gordon Laing, in his 5D Mark III review called it "almost a full-frame 7D," which is I believe a very accurate description.  I'd love to gain the full-frame IQ and low noise benefits whilst still having a superb (much better actually) AF system.  I'd be less enthusiastic about losing 2 fps compared to my beloved 7D, although 6 fps is still a decent level for wildlife shooting.  I'd also miss the crop factor, which I think does give a genuine benefit for framing, tracking and AF, especially for small, fast subjects like birds.  But then, I'd use the 5D Mark III as a supplement to my 7D, rather than a replacement for it.  If the light is good and the subject is distant, I'd still use the 7D, switching to the 5D III for larger, easier to track subjects like aircraft at airshows, and for poor lighting.  Truth is, I'd like the 5D III in my bag eventually, even with a 7D II - at least once the second-hand price drops sufficiently.  Different cameras have different strengths.  Naturally, I'd love a 1DX even more, but it's too hellishly expensive!  Even the 1D IV's are holding at high prices! :o
The speculation on what a 5 DIV is interesting, but it remains just speculation.  And it will be out of my price range for a long time regardless.  Ditto any new 1D series, although I suppose a new 5D and 1D may push the prices of the current models down to where a mere mortal can do more than dream of ownership! :D 
Still, it's the 7D II for which my groaning, over-extended wallet is yearning.   Hopefully, Canon will give me a chance to fork over my hard-earned dollars as my face goes pasty white at the financial ruin their products bring to me, as my shaking hands reach out for "the grail."    ;)
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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2013, 10:14:24 AM »

Don Haines

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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2013, 10:36:43 AM »


Thank you!  :)  I am enjoying reading all the posts.  It's nice to see that others are as hopeful and excited at the prospect of a 7D II, regardless of what it's called.  I tend towards thinking the 7D's rich reputation and legacy will be continued, but I'm more interested in the prototype that's been described in rumours seeing the light of day---a rose by any other name, as it were.  Still, I think 7D Mark II has a nice ring to it!   ;D 
If a 7D IIish camera doesn't release, I'll probably go for a 5D Mark III in time.  Gordon Laing, in his 5D Mark III review called it "almost a full-frame 7D," which is I believe a very accurate description.  I'd love to gain the full-frame IQ and low noise benefits whilst still having a superb (much better actually) AF system.  I'd be less enthusiastic about losing 2 fps compared to my beloved 7D, although 6 fps is still a decent level for wildlife shooting.  I'd also miss the crop factor, which I think does give a genuine benefit for framing, tracking and AF, especially for small, fast subjects like birds.  But then, I'd use the 5D Mark III as a supplement to my 7D, rather than a replacement for it.  If the light is good and the subject is distant, I'd still use the 7D, switching to the 5D III for larger, easier to track subjects like aircraft at airshows, and for poor lighting.  Truth is, I'd like the 5D III in my bag eventually, even with a 7D II - at least once the second-hand price drops sufficiently.  Different cameras have different strengths.  Naturally, I'd love a 1DX even more, but it's too hellishly expensive!  Even the 1D IV's are holding at high prices! :o
The speculation on what a 5 DIV is interesting, but it remains just speculation.  And it will be out of my price range for a long time regardless.  Ditto any new 1D series, although I suppose a new 5D and 1D may push the prices of the current models down to where a mere mortal can do more than dream of ownership! :D 
Still, it's the 7D II for which my groaning, over-extended wallet is yearning.   Hopefully, Canon will give me a chance to fork over my hard-earned dollars as my face goes pasty white at the financial ruin their products bring to me, as my shaking hands reach out for "the grail."    ;)

Something that a lot of people seem to forget is affordability...Regardless of how good a 1DX and a 600F4 are, there are many people who will never plop down the dollars to purchase them, but they are willing to pay $2000 for a camera or lens that is "pretty darn good", but not the best. Canon knows this. The bulk of their DSLR sales are the T3i and to a lesser amount, the T5i..... that's the market segment that is keeping the lights on at the factory.

Right now, Canon is in transition. The new models will probably all have touchscreens, dual-pixel technology, and WiFi connectivity for tethering and file transfer. I expect some interesting focus tracking modes to emerge as the technology matures.... The 70D is a good teaser.... and look what it did to 7D sales.... they seem to have dropped off of a cliff. If Canon came out with a 7D2 that was to the 70D what the 7D was to the 60D, it will probably sell well. Yes, it would probably cost canon a few sales of 5D3's and even a few 1DX's, but there will probably be more people who buy both bodies than "lost sales".... plus, as stated above, if you can't afford a 5D3 or a 1DX, the technical superiority is moot.
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Marauder

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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2013, 10:47:17 AM »


Thank you!  :)  I am enjoying reading all the posts.  It's nice to see that others are as hopeful and excited at the prospect of a 7D II, regardless of what it's called.  I tend towards thinking the 7D's rich reputation and legacy will be continued, but I'm more interested in the prototype that's been described in rumours seeing the light of day---a rose by any other name, as it were.  Still, I think 7D Mark II has a nice ring to it!   ;D 
If a 7D IIish camera doesn't release, I'll probably go for a 5D Mark III in time.  Gordon Laing, in his 5D Mark III review called it "almost a full-frame 7D," which is I believe a very accurate description.  I'd love to gain the full-frame IQ and low noise benefits whilst still having a superb (much better actually) AF system.  I'd be less enthusiastic about losing 2 fps compared to my beloved 7D, although 6 fps is still a decent level for wildlife shooting.  I'd also miss the crop factor, which I think does give a genuine benefit for framing, tracking and AF, especially for small, fast subjects like birds.  But then, I'd use the 5D Mark III as a supplement to my 7D, rather than a replacement for it.  If the light is good and the subject is distant, I'd still use the 7D, switching to the 5D III for larger, easier to track subjects like aircraft at airshows, and for poor lighting.  Truth is, I'd like the 5D III in my bag eventually, even with a 7D II - at least once the second-hand price drops sufficiently.  Different cameras have different strengths.  Naturally, I'd love a 1DX even more, but it's too hellishly expensive!  Even the 1D IV's are holding at high prices! :o
The speculation on what a 5 DIV is interesting, but it remains just speculation.  And it will be out of my price range for a long time regardless.  Ditto any new 1D series, although I suppose a new 5D and 1D may push the prices of the current models down to where a mere mortal can do more than dream of ownership! :D 
Still, it's the 7D II for which my groaning, over-extended wallet is yearning.   Hopefully, Canon will give me a chance to fork over my hard-earned dollars as my face goes pasty white at the financial ruin their products bring to me, as my shaking hands reach out for "the grail."    ;)

Something that a lot of people seem to forget is affordability...Regardless of how good a 1DX and a 600F4 are, there are many people who will never plop down the dollars to purchase them, but they are willing to pay $2000 for a camera or lens that is "pretty darn good", but not the best. Canon knows this. The bulk of their DSLR sales are the T3i and to a lesser amount, the T5i..... that's the market segment that is keeping the lights on at the factory.

Right now, Canon is in transition. The new models will probably all have touchscreens, dual-pixel technology, and WiFi connectivity for tethering and file transfer. I expect some interesting focus tracking modes to emerge as the technology matures.... The 70D is a good teaser.... and look what it did to 7D sales.... they seem to have dropped off of a cliff. If Canon came out with a 7D2 that was to the 70D what the 7D was to the 60D, it will probably sell well. Yes, it would probably cost canon a few sales of 5D3's and even a few 1DX's, but there will probably be more people who buy both bodies than "lost sales".... plus, as stated above, if you can't afford a 5D3 or a 1DX, the technical superiority is moot.

I concur completely!  I think there are a lot of us who dream for a 1DX, but who can "afford" a 7D II.  And it doesn't mean I'll never buy full-frame.  I'll just buy it years from now when it's a couple of generations old. LOL   Either that or a gently used 1D IV for around 2 grand when a 1DX replacement pushes the current 1DX down and has a trickle down impact upon older 1D products.  As it is, my "full-frame" experience is around some classic Canon film cameras I've bought, including the A-1 and a few FD lenses and the EOS 3 and Elan 7E.  But film is just too expensive to be my "main" way of capturing images.  It's fun, but I just can't do it all the time!
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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2013, 10:47:17 AM »