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Author Topic: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts  (Read 15454 times)

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Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« on: December 14, 2013, 07:10:19 PM »
A pro APS-C camera possible?
Earlier today we posted that there would be no Canon EOS 7D Mark II, we also have noticed this has appeared in a few other places on the web.

This got me thinking today whether or not it was possible that Canon would abandon this segment of the APS-C camera lineup. I came to the conclusion that they will not. It would simple not be a smart decision, however there could still be some truth to the “no 7D Mark II” statements passed around today.

What I do think is a possibility is that the camera will not be called the 7D Mark II, and be called something else. We have previously been told that a successor would have new and innovative video features. Perhaps we’re going to see something along the lines of an EOS 7D C? Canon is fully behind Cinema EOS and will continue to develop that product line.

The other possibility is perhaps Canon just doesn’t like the “7D” name and will simply rename it.

I, and others think Nikon will be releasing a replacement to the D300s and it only makes sense that Canon would do the same and replace the 7D. It’s possible that Canon is waiting for Nikon to play their hand first.

I’m looking forward to finding out what Canon has planned in 2014…..

cr

« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 07:18:50 PM by Canon Rumors »
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Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« on: December 14, 2013, 07:10:19 PM »

tomK

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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2013, 08:24:41 PM »
I shoot a little over 50 weddings a year in APS-C. The 70D is good enough. I pay my mortage and send my kids to college with the 70D and I don't lust for a more capable EF-S body. So ... who's a 7DmkII for? High School football shooters that want a 1.6x tele extender? Birders?

Somebody please enlighten me.

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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2013, 08:27:53 PM »
I shoot a little over 50 weddings a year in APS-C. The 70D is good enough. I pay my mortage and send my kids to college with the 70D and I don't lust for a more capable EF-S body. So ... who's a 7DmkII for? High School football shooters that want a 1.6x tele extender? Birders?

Somebody please enlighten me.

....sports......not there's any money in it ;)

catfish252

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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2013, 08:58:00 PM »
I think you happen to be right about the renaming of the 7D, staying with the same name kind of indicates to many people that it is just a new iteration of an old thing. I don't believe that Nikon will name the D300/s camera the D400, I would think that D9000 would be more inline with the rest of the DX (crop sensored) bodies. It sure is irritating to think they are both sitting there waiting for the other to pull the trigger first. Come on Canon and Nikon it'll be 5 years before they hit the market. We all want them now.

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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2013, 09:30:45 PM »
So what's the top end a sports shooter would pay for non EOS-1 body ?

I don't know, but that's what a 7DmkII should sell for.

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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2013, 09:33:10 PM »
New name would represent what a lot of users want. How about the name Canon 1.6dx :) primary use will still be sports and birds, particularly in good light.

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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2013, 10:07:44 PM »
As usual, Thom Hogan makes some very good points in his analysis of the Nikon side of things.

Canon is not going to abandon the 7D model name. It's been too successful and they've invested too much in making it the top of the line APS-C camera. No corporation is going to just toss aside that investment. 

Sensor aside, there is plenty of room between the 70D and 7D for improvement. Keep the 7D build quality, beef up the weather sealing a bit, add dual card slots, keep the frame rate above the 70 D, add a 5DIII-style autofocus and you've got a heck of a camera. With a new sensor it becomes a category killer.

Canon's goal is not convert people from APS-C to full frame, Canon wants to sell enthusiasts two cameras, one full frame and one APS-C.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 10:17:52 PM by unfocused »
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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2013, 10:07:44 PM »

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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2013, 10:21:06 PM »
I've been a long time watching this page and reading the forum, albeit as a 'guest.'  But this particular rumour has 'brought me out of the wood work,' so to speak.  I have the 7D (and also a T3i) and I shoot 'things that move' for the most part--birds in flight, aircraft etc.  I have to say that I am distressed by this rumour and I hope it's not true.  The 7D II, in the format that has been repeatedly stated for it, would be a remarkable camera for someone who likes to take wildlife/nature shots, as well as other "action" photography.  Although the 70D looks to be a great camera, I don't see it as being a worthy 7D replacement.  It only beats the 7D in a few areas where technical improvements allow it, such as DPAF giving greatly improved Live and Video focussing, both of which are of secondary importance to me, and to many other shooters.  Moreover, in other areas it merely "matches" the 7D, having the same 19 point AF system.  There's certainly nothing wrong with the 19 point AF system, with all of them being cross-type, but it is an older system and it is one of the items I am most anxious to see improved upon in a genuine 7D replacement, preferably with something similar to the 61 point AF on the 5D III and IDX.  As if being merely "equal" to the aging 7D wasn't already enough to make the 70D unequal to the task of replacing the 7D, it is outright inferior in a couple areas.  Certainly, many might say that it's only losing one fps, but that's still a step DOWN from the 2009 7D.  More importantly, the smaller buffer means fewer images captured in a burst, which is a much bigger deal.  And it loses two of the most useful AF modes, the AF Expansion and the Spot AF, both of which have come in very handy.  I usually use AF Expansion when tracking BIF, especially if there is a background that might distract Zone mode.  And I've found Spot AF can be remarkably handy, even in Servo mode, when trying to get a bird through foliage.  As both AF Expansion and Spot AF are missing from the 70D, it cannot match all of the shooting scenarios of the 7D.  None of this is to imply that the 70D is a bad camera.  I think it's a worthy successor to the 60D and it raises the xxD line to a higher level, just a bit below the 7D as a wildlife/sports/action camera.  I was actually happy to see the 70D so well spec'd, not because I want one, but because it raised the bar on what we could expect from a TRUE 7D successor.  I keep reading that the 70D doesn't give room for the APC 7D Mark II, and that the rumoured spec isn't enough to justify the expected price.  I don't agree at all!  I'd LOVE to see the 7D Mark II come out with the rumoured Spec--24MP DPAF, 10-12 fps, dual Digic 5+ (or 6) sensor and a nice deep buffer, and a greatly improved 61 point AF system.  That is VASTLY better than the 70D for someone who wants a high performance camera that will give greatly improved odds of capturing an amazing "never come again" moment. 
I also keep reading about how the price drop on the 6D makes the 7D II obsolete.  It's been stated repeatedly by others why the 6D doesn't figure into the matrix, but I guess I'll add my voice to that since it seems to still come up repeatedly.  The 6D is NOT a competitor to the 7D Mark 2.  It's not even a competitor to the 70D for that matter!  Not for someone who shoots fast moving objects.  If I didn't already have a 7D and my choices were between a 7D, a 70D and a 6D at the same price, I'd go for the 7D, with the 70D my second choice. The 6D would be a distant third.  Again, I'm not knocking the 6D, IQ is apparently amazing, but a sluggish AF, burst and buffer make it an inadequate choice for a steady diet of photographing fast moving subjects.  I see the 6D (like the 5D II before it) being aimed at a completely different kind of photographer, with very different needs.  Indeed, the 6D is much more of a spiritual successor to the 5D II than is the 5D III! Anyone who buys a 6D over a 70D (or 7D) with the purpose of shooting fast moving objects has, quite simply, bought the wrong camera.  If the 6D isn't really a competitor for the 70D and 7D, than that goes DOUBLE for the 7D II!  I'd be willing to pay substantially more for a crop-framed 7D II over a reduced 6D, because it's a better camera for the kind of shooting I do!  If you shoot weddings, landscapes and models, than by all means the 6D, with it's better high ISO IQ and it's full-frame sensor is the better choice--but it was never designed as an "action" based camera. 
Now the 5D III is a much more attractive substitute to a 7D or 70D.  It has the superb 61 Point AF system, combined with a decent 6 fps frame rate and a decent buffer.  But it still trades a frame per second to the 70D and two fps under the 7D, and that can be significant.  Weighted against that, it's AF system is superior to either, so you may still actually get more "keepers" than the 19 point AF system of the 7D and 70D.  But...it's vastly more expensive than the 7D and 70D, and substantially more expensive than the proposed 7D II.  If the 7D II has an advanced AF system based on the 5D III and 1DX, then the AF advantage for the 5D III goes away.  In addition, if the 7D II is 10 or 12 fps, then it will be 4-6 fps faster than the 5D III.  Again, that is a huge bonus for a bird/sports/action photographer!  Also, like many other photographers here, I LIKE the crop frame!  I like that I can get tighter framing on a small subject like a bird with my hand-holdable 100-400L lens.   
As to the notion of the 7D replacement moving to the cinema line--*yawn*.  Count me out then.  I'm not video averse.  I realize the camera must be versatile and flexible, and I welcome DPAF and all the Live View and Video benefits it brings, but I'm not looking for a "video first" camera. 
So, to sum up, I REALLY hope that this rumour is a myth and that the 7D II is released next year, with all the promised features.  I'd love it if they made it a 'mini 1DX' style camera, with the full 12 fps, 24 MP DPAF crop sensor, deep buffer, 61 point AF system.  I'd also love for it to have the 1DX AF scenarios, for customizing Servo mode for different types of subject!  That'd be cool! 
Canon, please make the 7D II a reality!!!!!!!!
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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2013, 10:27:25 PM »
I've been a long time watching this page and reading the forum, albeit as a 'guest.'  But this particular rumour has 'brought me out of the wood work,' so to speak.  I have the 7D (and also a T3i) and I shoot 'things that move' for the most part--birds in flight, aircraft etc.  I have to say that I am distressed by this rumour and I hope it's not true.  The 7D II, in the format that has been repeatedly stated for it, would be a remarkable camera for someone who likes to take wildlife/nature shots, as well as other "action" photography.  Although the 70D looks to be a great camera, I don't see it as being a worthy 7D replacement.  It only beats the 7D in a few areas where technical improvements allow it, such as DPAF giving greatly improved Live and Video focussing, both of which are of secondary importance to me, and to many other shooters.  Moreover, in other areas it merely "matches" the 7D, having the same 19 point AF system.  There's certainly nothing wrong with the 19 point AF system, with all of them being cross-type, but it is an older system and it is one of the items I am most anxious to see improved upon in a genuine 7D replacement, preferably with something similar to the 61 point AF on the 5D III and IDX.  As if being merely "equal" to the aging 7D wasn't already enough to make the 70D unequal to the task of replacing the 7D, it is outright inferior in a couple areas.  Certainly, many might say that it's only losing one fps, but that's still a step DOWN from the 2009 7D.  More importantly, the smaller buffer means fewer images captured in a burst, which is a much bigger deal.  And it loses two of the most useful AF modes, the AF Expansion and the Spot AF, both of which have come in very handy.  I usually use AF Expansion when tracking BIF, especially if there is a background that might distract Zone mode.  And I've found Spot AF can be remarkably handy, even in Servo mode, when trying to get a bird through foliage.  As both AF Expansion and Spot AF are missing from the 70D, it cannot match all of the shooting scenarios of the 7D.  None of this is to imply that the 70D is a bad camera.  I think it's a worthy successor to the 60D and it raises the xxD line to a higher level, just a bit below the 7D as a wildlife/sports/action camera.  I was actually happy to see the 70D so well spec'd, not because I want one, but because it raised the bar on what we could expect from a TRUE 7D successor.  I keep reading that the 70D doesn't give room for the APC 7D Mark II, and that the rumoured spec isn't enough to justify the expected price.  I don't agree at all!  I'd LOVE to see the 7D Mark II come out with the rumoured Spec--24MP DPAF, 10-12 fps, dual Digic 5+ (or 6) sensor and a nice deep buffer, and a greatly improved 61 point AF system.  That is VASTLY better than the 70D for someone who wants a high performance camera that will give greatly improved odds of capturing an amazing "never come again" moment. 
I also keep reading about how the price drop on the 6D makes the 7D II obsolete.  It's been stated repeatedly by others why the 6D doesn't figure into the matrix, but I guess I'll add my voice to that since it seems to still come up repeatedly.  The 6D is NOT a competitor to the 7D Mark 2.  It's not even a competitor to the 70D for that matter!  Not for someone who shoots fast moving objects.  If I didn't already have a 7D and my choices were between a 7D, a 70D and a 6D at the same price, I'd go for the 7D, with the 70D my second choice. The 6D would be a distant third.  Again, I'm not knocking the 6D, IQ is apparently amazing, but a sluggish AF, burst and buffer make it an inadequate choice for a steady diet of photographing fast moving subjects.  I see the 6D (like the 5D II before it) being aimed at a completely different kind of photographer, with very different needs.  Indeed, the 6D is much more of a spiritual successor to the 5D II than is the 5D III! Anyone who buys a 6D over a 70D (or 7D) with the purpose of shooting fast moving objects has, quite simply, bought the wrong camera.  If the 6D isn't really a competitor for the 70D and 7D, than that goes DOUBLE for the 7D II!  I'd be willing to pay substantially more for a crop-framed 7D II over a reduced 6D, because it's a better camera for the kind of shooting I do!  If you shoot weddings, landscapes and models, than by all means the 6D, with it's better high ISO IQ and it's full-frame sensor is the better choice--but it was never designed as an "action" based camera. 
Now the 5D III is a much more attractive substitute to a 7D or 70D.  It has the superb 61 Point AF system, combined with a decent 6 fps frame rate and a decent buffer.  But it still trades a frame per second to the 70D and two fps under the 7D, and that can be significant.  Weighted against that, it's AF system is superior to either, so you may still actually get more "keepers" than the 19 point AF system of the 7D and 70D.  But...it's vastly more expensive than the 7D and 70D, and substantially more expensive than the proposed 7D II.  If the 7D II has an advanced AF system based on the 5D III and 1DX, then the AF advantage for the 5D III goes away.  In addition, if the 7D II is 10 or 12 fps, then it will be 4-6 fps faster than the 5D III.  Again, that is a huge bonus for a bird/sports/action photographer!  Also, like many other photographers here, I LIKE the crop frame!  I like that I can get tighter framing on a small subject like a bird with my hand-holdable 100-400L lens.   
As to the notion of the 7D replacement moving to the cinema line--*yawn*.  Count me out then.  I'm not video averse.  I realize the camera must be versatile and flexible, and I welcome DPAF and all the Live View and Video benefits it brings, but I'm not looking for a "video first" camera. 
So, to sum up, I REALLY hope that this rumour is a myth and that the 7D II is released next year, with all the promised features.  I'd love it if they made it a 'mini 1DX' style camera, with the full 12 fps, 24 MP DPAF crop sensor, deep buffer, 61 point AF system.  I'd also love for it to have the 1DX AF scenarios, for customizing Servo mode for different types of subject!  That'd be cool! 
Canon, please make the 7D II a reality!!!!!!!!
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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2013, 10:28:53 PM »
As usual, Thom Hogan makes some very good points in his analysis of the Nikon side of things.

Canon is not going to abandon the 7D model name. It's been too successful and they've invested too much in making it the top of the line APS-C camera. No corporation is going to just toss aside that investment. 

Sensor aside, there is plenty of room between the 70D and 7D for improvement. Keep the 7D build quality, beef up the weather sealing a bit, add dual card slots, keep the frame rate above the 70 D, add a 5DIII-style autofocus and you've got a heck of a camera. With a new sensor it becomes a category killer.

Canon's goal is not convert people from APS-C to full frame, Canon wants to sell enthusiasts two cameras, one full frame and one APS-C.

Totally agree. I think the 7D has been one of Canon's most successful cameras, probably only after the 5D line.
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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2013, 11:50:06 PM »
As usual, Thom Hogan makes some very good points in his analysis of the Nikon side of things.

Canon is not going to abandon the 7D model name. It's been too successful and they've invested too much in making it the top of the line APS-C camera. No corporation is going to just toss aside that investment. 

Sensor aside, there is plenty of room between the 70D and 7D for improvement. Keep the 7D build quality, beef up the weather sealing a bit, add dual card slots, keep the frame rate above the 70 D, add a 5DIII-style autofocus and you've got a heck of a camera. With a new sensor it becomes a category killer.

Canon's goal is not convert people from APS-C to full frame, Canon wants to sell enthusiasts two cameras, one full frame and one APS-C.

Then again what would a 7DII offer over an 8fps 39MP 5D4 to make it worth it?

I guess they could go no AA filter and 27MP and 10-12fps.

I think I'd be more excited by a single just about do everything 5D4 myself though.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 11:52:20 PM by LetTheRightLensIn »

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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2013, 12:13:04 AM »
I just picked up a 7d & 28-135 for 650.  It reminds me quite a bit of my 5d mkiii.  It is a very comfortable 2nd body.  I'm not sure I need a top performing aps-c body... and I can't claim it is for my daughter, so I will probably wind up selling it.  But now that there may not be another 7d model... I feel compelled to keep it. 

Upgrade  path.->means the former was sold for the latter.

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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2013, 12:25:56 AM »
As usual, Thom Hogan makes some very good points in his analysis of the Nikon side of things.

Canon is not going to abandon the 7D model name. It's been too successful and they've invested too much in making it the top of the line APS-C camera. No corporation is going to just toss aside that investment. 

Sensor aside, there is plenty of room between the 70D and 7D for improvement. Keep the 7D build quality, beef up the weather sealing a bit, add dual card slots, keep the frame rate above the 70 D, add a 5DIII-style autofocus and you've got a heck of a camera. With a new sensor it becomes a category killer.

Canon's goal is not convert people from APS-C to full frame, Canon wants to sell enthusiasts two cameras, one full frame and one APS-C.

I think you are right.  The 7D name is a extremely valuable property.  Canon has sold a ton of them, and won't let it die.
 
I bought a used D300s just to use with the Nikon 200-400 lens I bought.  It is way behind the 7D.  Nikon really needs to update it.  I suspect that Canon hasn't updated the 7D because of the lack of competition, and possibly its still selling well.  At some point, lower end cameras with feature creep will out perform it.

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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2013, 12:25:56 AM »

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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2013, 12:42:03 AM »
I stood beside some nice lady who just bought a 7D last week over the 70d, the 7d is an amazing price of kit.


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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2013, 01:41:19 AM »
Yes. The 7D is a highly respected camera and Canon isn't going to abandon the model. If they didn't do it with the 5D. They won't with the 7D.

I simply hope Canon won't do with the 7D what they did with the 5D MKII: Make it's successor half the camera everyone expected. The MKIII rode on the laurels of the MKII pedigree. And Canon used that pedigree to sell the MKIII.

I love my Canon 50D and mostly love my 5D MK II. An extra stop or two of ISO would be nice. I would like the ergonomics closer to the MKIII. And love MF DR. Still, these cameras are capable of creating just about any image any other DSLR can do except for the extremes. Which is about .005% of photographers.

If Canon wants to make halfies, that's fine with me. I'll just wait for something that rocks for my needs. If I want to spend money, there's lots of lenses, lights, stands and other gear to buy in the meantime!
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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2013, 01:41:19 AM »