October 21, 2014, 01:56:01 AM

Author Topic: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts  (Read 17025 times)

jrista

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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #105 on: December 17, 2013, 07:33:23 PM »
I am talking about cropped stills, not cropped video. (Personally, I could really care less about video in my DSLR...it's convenient for some uses, but I really use my DSLR for photography.) Also, keep in mind, read occurs at the front end of the pipeline...compression, such as video compression or compression of photos into RAW files/JPEG, occurs at the back end of the pipeline. The readout rate requires that the front end speed, the data being pulled off the sensor and shipped into the DSP, support the full RAW data size of the full sensor at it's native bit depth, masked pixels and any error correcting or other intrinsic overhead included.

As for readout rate, they aren't reading the entire sensor at 60fps. Video reads are different than full frame stills reads. You only need to read two megapixels for full HD video. If they actually WERE reading the full frame at 60fps, that would mean the data throughput rate was TWO GIGABYTES PER SECOND. The DIGIC5+ is only capable of 250 MEGABYTES per second each (and the 1D X needs 480MB throughput to support 14fps, hence the use of dual digic.) Conversely, at 2 megapixels, the total throughput rate for 1080p readout at 60fps is 218MB/s, and is very likely achieved via some kind of basic hardware binning at best, and row skipping at worst.

Your little P&S is using binned readout or something like that to achieve 240fps, and even then, is it a progressive readout, or interleaved readout? If interleaved, the true readout rate would be 120fps, very likely for a mere 1mp worth of data. To actually read a full 16mp worth of data at 240fps (even at a mere 12 bit), you would need over 6BG/s throughput (that would be faster than SATA 3!)

What I think most people are referring to is a true native stills photography read, but with native cropping. Assuming we get DIGIC7+, capable of 7x DIGIC5+ performance. That would allow a 1750MB/s (1.75GB/s) raw data readout rate. That would allow around 19fps @ 46mp (assuming masked border pixels and some additional overhead). It would allow 37.7mp APS-H reads at ~33fps, and 18.1mp APS-C reads at ~51fps. For all that seven times more processing power than a single DIGIC5+, it still doesn't get you over the 60fps hump...even with hardware cropping.
Interesting....
Every time I discuss something with you I learn things.  Thanks for the patience!

No problem. :)

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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #105 on: December 17, 2013, 07:33:23 PM »

AvTvM

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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #106 on: December 18, 2013, 03:26:13 AM »
in camera cropping or digital zoom is great with an evf so you see what you see is what you get. it would be splendid with a high mp ff mirrorless body. when canon makes a big mp ff body like the d800 then it should have a crop mode also, its better than not having it but you just get a crop square in the viewfinder. i don't know if there is a good way to change the magnification of what you see in the finder when you switch to crop mode?

Yes! Perfectly implemented crop mode with EVF is available. Sony A7 = 10MP in 1.5x crop mode, A7R = 15.3MP.
Canon would not even have to innovate. Just imitate. :-)

http://www.dpreview.com/previews/sony-alpha-7-7r
Quote
The two cameras are perfectly capable of using existing E-mount and A-mount lenses, and you have the choice as to whether the image is cropped. If you choose to crop, the resolution will drop to 15 megapixel on the α7R and 10 megapixel on the α7, and the equivalent focal length will increase by 1.5X. Sony also gives you the option not to crop and use the entire sensor, though this may lead to strong vignetting (and for most lenses, probably will).


Quote
The camera offers three options for its APS-C crop mode - Off, Auto and On. With it switched Off, you'll see Image 1 with a full-frame lens and Image 2 if you're using an APS-C lens. In the default, Auto, mode you'll get Image 1 or Image 3, depending on whether you're using a full-frame or an APS-C lens. And finally, with it On, you'll see Image 3, regardless of which lens type you put on the camera.

Image 1: http://www.dpreview.com/previews/sony-alpha-7-7r/images/lensFF.jpg
full sensor area, uncropped frame (with FF lens)

Image 2 http://www.dpreview.com/previews/sony-alpha-7-7r/images/lensAPSCNoCrop.jpg
full sensor area, vignetted image (with APS-C lens)

Image 3: http://www.dpreview.com/previews/sony-alpha-7-7r/images/lensAPSC.jpg
cropped viewfinder display, higher viewfinder magnification, cropped image [with APS-C lens]
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 03:48:42 AM by AvTvM »

Marsu42

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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #107 on: December 18, 2013, 03:40:47 AM »
That's where the 70d comes it: it has a "dumbed down" af system and might be inferior to a rumored 7d2
I expect that the extra AF modes will be enabled via firmware on the 70d but not until the 7d gets replaced or discontinued.

Don't count on that happening, I wouldn't advise buying a 70d expecting an af feature update that brings it up to the 7d1 level - Canon is not in the habit of doing *any* updates on the xxd cameras, they're to be sold and used "as is".

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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #108 on: December 18, 2013, 03:51:43 AM »
Yes! Perfectly implemented crop mode with EVF is available. Sony A7 = 10MP in 1.5x crop mode, A7R = 15.3MP.
Canon would not even have to innovate. Just imitate. :-)

Such 'innovation' makes much more sense for Sony, because it has wide range of reasonably good 'crop lenses' and probably wants to 'lure' existing NEX and APS-C alpha users into brave new world of FF. (And probably this is not a luxury but necessity, given limited number of new FE lenses.)

On Canon's side I can't imagine a lot 'future mirrorless FF' buyers to use such camera in cropped mode with lenses like EF-M 22 or EF-S 55-250...
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AvTvM

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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #109 on: December 18, 2013, 03:52:26 AM »
Don't count on that happening, I wouldn't advise buying a 70d expecting an af feature update that brings it up to the 7d1 level - Canon is not in the habit of doing *any* updates on the xxd cameras, they're to be sold and used "as is".

exactly! "Upgrades" for Canon xxD users are available solely by purchasing a "new" (incrementally improved) xxD body. ;-)

And sometimes it turns out to be a downgrade ... 50D anyone?  :o

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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #110 on: December 18, 2013, 05:56:07 PM »
How was the 50D I downgrade? Just curious. I can see the 60D, but 50D?
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jdramirez

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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #111 on: December 18, 2013, 08:21:05 PM »
How was the 50D I downgrade? Just curious. I can see the 60D, but 50D?
That's what I was thinking... and how awesome was the 40d?
Upgrade  path.->means the former was sold for the latter.

XS->60D->5d Mkiii:18-55->24-105L:75-300->55-250->70-300->70-200 f4L USM->70-200 f/2.8L USM->70-200 f/2.8L IS Mkii:50 f/1.8->50 f/1.4->100L->85mm f/1.8 USM-> 8mm ->100L & 85L

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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #111 on: December 18, 2013, 08:21:05 PM »

Marsu42

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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #112 on: December 19, 2013, 01:02:41 AM »
How was the 50D I downgrade? Just curious. I can see the 60D, but 50D?

As far as I remember the 50d was the first Canon aps-c to be accused of having a too high pixel density for it's own good, and it was even sold alongside the 40d for a while since they served different purposes (just like 5d2 vs 5d3)... the high iso noise gave the 50d a bad reputation, little did they know back then about what was to come next :-p

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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #113 on: December 19, 2013, 08:22:12 AM »
How was the 50D I downgrade? Just curious. I can see the 60D, but 50D?

As far as I remember the 50d was the first Canon aps-c to be accused of having a too high pixel density for it's own good, and it was even sold alongside the 40d for a while since they served different purposes (just like 5d2 vs 5d3)... the high iso noise gave the 50d a bad reputation, little did they know back then about what was to come next :-p

I would be curious if there is a market for a low pixel density, high pixel quality, aps-c camera with low light functionality on par with full frame. Since it would use the best part of the lens, there would be less vignetting, sharper images at the corners, and no novice buyers because they see the megapixel number and are blind to everything else.
Upgrade  path.->means the former was sold for the latter.

XS->60D->5d Mkiii:18-55->24-105L:75-300->55-250->70-300->70-200 f4L USM->70-200 f/2.8L USM->70-200 f/2.8L IS Mkii:50 f/1.8->50 f/1.4->100L->85mm f/1.8 USM-> 8mm ->100L & 85L

AvTvM

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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #114 on: December 19, 2013, 08:43:51 AM »
How was the 50D I downgrade? Just curious. I can see the 60D, but 50D?
50D sensor was hardly a progress over 40D.
But you are right, I meant the downgrade with no AFMA ... that was 60D then right?

Canon only barely retained me as a customer in 2009, because they finally brought the 7D which I considered to be at least as good as the Nikon D300s. And because Nikon had and still has no stabilized 17-55/2.8 lens ... and still does not have one to the day. Without 7D - meaning something as lame as 50D or 60D - I would definitely have switched from my 40D to Nikon back then.   

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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #115 on: December 19, 2013, 01:52:56 PM »
How was the 50D I downgrade? Just curious. I can see the 60D, but 50D?
50D sensor was hardly a progress over 40D.
But you are right, I meant the downgrade with no AFMA ... that was 60D then right?

Canon only barely retained me as a customer in 2009, because they finally brought the 7D which I considered to be at least as good as the Nikon D300s. And because Nikon had and still has no stabilized 17-55/2.8 lens ... and still does not have one to the day. Without 7D - meaning something as lame as 50D or 60D - I would definitely have switched from my 40D to Nikon back then.

I switched from a 40D to a 5DMKII and then also bought a 7D. The 50D I recall was disappointing and I always felt (and still do today) that the 40D was better. The 60D by the way, was a joke when compared to the format of the xxD bodies until then.
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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #116 on: December 19, 2013, 06:29:33 PM »

As for readout rate, they aren't reading the entire sensor at 60fps. Video reads are different than full frame stills reads. You only need to read two megapixels for full HD video. If they actually WERE reading the full frame at 60fps, that would mean the data throughput rate was TWO GIGABYTES PER SECOND. The DIGIC5+ is only capable of 250 MEGABYTES per second each (and the 1D X needs 480MB throughput to support 14fps, hence the use of dual digic.) Conversely, at 2 megapixels, the total throughput rate for 1080p readout at 60fps is 218MB/s, and is very likely achieved via some kind of basic hardware binning at best, and row skipping at worst.

Thats where we should look at Sonys RX10 - it archives video quality on par with the much bigger solutions by actually reading (and using the data of) its full sensor @60p. Using similar readout &  processing cores on each the left&right half of a full frame sensor would get you very close to 4K 4:4:4 (i.e. 7680/8192px on the long side) @60p. Or really high fps for 39/45MP stills. You might need a bigger body to fit everything in...but that could be considered a bonus after all :)

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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #117 on: January 03, 2014, 06:48:39 PM »
I hope the 7D II would might have a better image quality - I`m owning a 7D and a 5d3 and since I bought the 5d3 I only use the 7D at sportsevents with action and good light !!! In all other cases I use the 5d3, cause her IQ is so much better. The 7D II should have the AF of the 5d3 and the speed of 8 - 10 p/s a much better IQ, especially at ISO 800 and higher. In this case I would buy it up to 2000,- €.

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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #117 on: January 03, 2014, 06:48:39 PM »

MichaelHodges

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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #118 on: January 08, 2014, 08:48:02 PM »
How was the 50D I downgrade? Just curious. I can see the 60D, but 50D?

As far as I remember the 50d was the first Canon aps-c to be accused of having a too high pixel density for it's own good, and it was even sold alongside the 40d for a while since they served different purposes (just like 5d2 vs 5d3)... the high iso noise gave the 50d a bad reputation, little did they know back then about what was to come next :-p

Selling my 50D for the 7D was a mistake at the time.

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Re: Thinking Out Loud: EOS 7D Mark II Thoughts
« Reply #118 on: January 08, 2014, 08:48:02 PM »