October 22, 2014, 10:10:29 AM

Author Topic: A 2014 Roadmap Part 1: The 7D Mark II is Coming [CR2]  (Read 23718 times)

AvTvM

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Re: A 2014 Roadmap Part 1: The 7D Mark II is Coming [CR2]
« Reply #105 on: December 28, 2013, 11:42:09 AM »
well, for a 2014 announcement, the bare minimum in sensor performance Canon needs to deliver in a 7D successor is the Nikon D7100 ... 24 MP, no DPLF (AA-Filter), excellent IQ and very good DR - more than 1 step up from Canon's pre-historic 18 MP APS-C sensor!

If Sony/Nikon can "cram that many pixels" onto a APS-C sensor and get excellent IQ from it, so should Canon. Crop 1.6x vs. 1.5x makes hardly a difference in real life. If Canon can't even achieve that much, they might as well pack up their entire APS-C business and call it quits.

That's why I absolutely expect a 24MP (or maybe 26MP) sensor in the 7D II. Of course with dual pixel-AF, plus an (even) better phase-AF module. Slightly faster too ... 9 or 10 fps. WiFi, GPS built-in and also [finally!] a RT radio wireless flash controller. After all, the 7D was the first ever Canon EOS camera to include an [optical] wireless speedlite master controller. Plus a fully articulated, touchscreen LCD - which Canon has learned to make some time ago already (EOS 650D). Plus some video-optimized stuff, bingo! No really innovation needed. 

Price tag? USD/€ 2199,- ... in line with Canon's pricing decisions in its more recent history. ;-) 

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Re: A 2014 Roadmap Part 1: The 7D Mark II is Coming [CR2]
« Reply #105 on: December 28, 2013, 11:42:09 AM »

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Re: A 2014 Roadmap Part 1: The 7D Mark II is Coming [CR2]
« Reply #106 on: December 28, 2013, 12:56:09 PM »
well, for a 2014 announcement, the bare minimum in sensor performance Canon needs to deliver in a 7D successor is the Nikon D7100 ... 24 MP, no DPLF (AA-Filter), excellent IQ and very good DR - more than 1 step up from Canon's pre-historic 18 MP APS-C sensor!

If Sony/Nikon can "cram that many pixels" onto a APS-C sensor and get excellent IQ from it, so should Canon. Crop 1.6x vs. 1.5x makes hardly a difference in real life. If Canon can't even achieve that much, they might as well pack up their entire APS-C business and call it quits.

That's why I absolutely expect a 24MP (or maybe 26MP) sensor in the 7D II. Of course with dual pixel-AF, plus an (even) better phase-AF module. Slightly faster too ... 9 or 10 fps. WiFi, GPS built-in and also [finally!] a RT radio wireless flash controller. After all, the 7D was the first ever Canon EOS camera to include an [optical] wireless speedlite master controller. Plus a fully articulated, touchscreen LCD - which Canon has learned to make some time ago already (EOS 650D). Plus some video-optimized stuff, bingo! No really innovation needed. 

Price tag? USD/€ 2199,- ... in line with Canon's pricing decisions in its more recent history. ;-)

Two things in all that I most certainly hope they do NOT do. First is the articulated screen. HELL NO. For one, the articulated screen makes it much harder to weather seal the body, and weather sealing is VASTLY more important for the 7D line. Additionally, it is just another part to break. Either whatever sealing Canon manages to stuff into the joint will eventually wear out, nullifying any other weather sealing...or the whole damn screen could break off. Articulated screen + professional model? Nah, I don't see it happening, and if it did, that would forever end my use of the 7D line.

As for the AA filter, at best, Canon should offer the option if there are really that many people who want it. I personally don't understand the trend towards more moire and worse aliasing...it's an odd trend. It is also largely a gimmick. An AA filter restores proper resolving power, eliminating nonsense data and massaging it into useful data. I don't really believe there are enough people who want AA-filter-less cameras that Canon would do this. Again, though, if they only offered a version without an AA filter, and none with, that too would probably end my use of the 7D line. I photograph birds...lack of an AA filter would decimate fine feather detail and leave it riddled with color moire, and there is no way to clean that up in post.

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Re: A 2014 Roadmap Part 1: The 7D Mark II is Coming [CR2]
« Reply #107 on: December 28, 2013, 01:22:32 PM »
well, for a 2014 announcement, the bare minimum in sensor performance Canon needs to deliver in a 7D successor is the Nikon D7100 ... 24 MP, no DPLF (AA-Filter), excellent IQ and very good DR - more than 1 step up from Canon's pre-historic 18 MP APS-C sensor!

If Sony/Nikon can "cram that many pixels" onto a APS-C sensor and get excellent IQ from it, so should Canon. Crop 1.6x vs. 1.5x makes hardly a difference in real life. If Canon can't even achieve that much, they might as well pack up their entire APS-C business and call it quits.

That's why I absolutely expect a 24MP (or maybe 26MP) sensor in the 7D II. Of course with dual pixel-AF, plus an (even) better phase-AF module. Slightly faster too ... 9 or 10 fps. WiFi, GPS built-in and also [finally!] a RT radio wireless flash controller. After all, the 7D was the first ever Canon EOS camera to include an [optical] wireless speedlite master controller. Plus a fully articulated, touchscreen LCD - which Canon has learned to make some time ago already (EOS 650D). Plus some video-optimized stuff, bingo! No really innovation needed. 

Price tag? USD/€ 2199,- ... in line with Canon's pricing decisions in its more recent history. ;-)

Two things in all that I most certainly hope they do NOT do. First is the articulated screen. HELL NO. For one, the articulated screen makes it much harder to weather seal the body, and weather sealing is VASTLY more important for the 7D line. Additionally, it is just another part to break. Either whatever sealing Canon manages to stuff into the joint will eventually wear out, nullifying any other weather sealing...or the whole damn screen could break off. Articulated screen + professional model? Nah, I don't see it happening, and if it did, that would forever end my use of the 7D line.

As for the AA filter, at best, Canon should offer the option if there are really that many people who want it. I personally don't understand the trend towards more moire and worse aliasing...it's an odd trend. It is also largely a gimmick. An AA filter restores proper resolving power, eliminating nonsense data and massaging it into useful data. I don't really believe there are enough people who want AA-filter-less cameras that Canon would do this. Again, though, if they only offered a version without an AA filter, and none with, that too would probably end my use of the 7D line. I photograph birds...lack of an AA filter would decimate fine feather detail and leave it riddled with color moire, and there is no way to clean that up in post.
I agree 100 percent on the AA filter.

The articulated screen is slightly different logic, but I end up in the same place. I find the articulated screen to be a very useful feature and would not want to have a camera without one.... But the addition of WiFi and touchscreen interfaces takes things to the next level.... If you can have a phone or iPad that does the same things as the articulated screen, you end up with the possibility of a detached screen that is WAY more versatile than any articulated screen could be. For that reason, I think that the convenience of an articulated screen is less important on newer cameras than it was on previous models, and at least for me, having an articulated screen on a WiFi enabled camera is a non-issue.

We should be seeing more convergence between tablets/phones and DSLRs.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 05:25:03 PM by Don Haines »
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Re: A 2014 Roadmap Part 1: The 7D Mark II is Coming [CR2]
« Reply #108 on: December 28, 2013, 05:01:07 PM »
For instance, I highly doubt this new sensor will exceed (or even equal) the dynamic range of the existing 24 MP 1.5x sensor being used across the way.  How could it?  It's going to have smaller photosites, by definition, so each will get less photons.  Do any of you really see a quantum leap in crop sensor performance coming soon from Canon?  I don't.

I'd be surprised if Canon's sensors don't move to back-side illumination pretty soon.  It's a quantum leap for high-density sensors like the ones used in cell phones, but the benefit would be smaller in a sensor as big as APS-C unless the sensor's resolution were utterly insane.  Either way, though, it should improve the SNR, and should compensate somewhat for the shrink in pixel size caused by a resolution increase, though I'm not sure exactly how much.

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Re: A 2014 Roadmap Part 1: The 7D Mark II is Coming [CR2]
« Reply #109 on: December 28, 2013, 07:08:41 PM »
well, for a 2014 announcement, the bare minimum in sensor performance Canon needs to deliver in a 7D successor is the Nikon D7100 ... 24 MP, no DPLF (AA-Filter), excellent IQ and very good DR - more than 1 step up from Canon's pre-historic 18 MP APS-C sensor!

If Sony/Nikon can "cram that many pixels" onto a APS-C sensor and get excellent IQ from it, so should Canon. Crop 1.6x vs. 1.5x makes hardly a difference in real life. If Canon can't even achieve that much, they might as well pack up their entire APS-C business and call it quits.

That's why I absolutely expect a 24MP (or maybe 26MP) sensor in the 7D II. Of course with dual pixel-AF, plus an (even) better phase-AF module. Slightly faster too ... 9 or 10 fps. WiFi, GPS built-in and also [finally!] a RT radio wireless flash controller. After all, the 7D was the first ever Canon EOS camera to include an [optical] wireless speedlite master controller. Plus a fully articulated, touchscreen LCD - which Canon has learned to make some time ago already (EOS 650D). Plus some video-optimized stuff, bingo! No really innovation needed. 

Price tag? USD/€ 2199,- ... in line with Canon's pricing decisions in its more recent history. ;-)

Two things in all that I most certainly hope they do NOT do. First is the articulated screen. HELL NO. For one, the articulated screen makes it much harder to weather seal the body, and weather sealing is VASTLY more important for the 7D line. Additionally, it is just another part to break. Either whatever sealing Canon manages to stuff into the joint will eventually wear out, nullifying any other weather sealing...or the whole damn screen could break off. Articulated screen + professional model? Nah, I don't see it happening, and if it did, that would forever end my use of the 7D line.

As for the AA filter, at best, Canon should offer the option if there are really that many people who want it. I personally don't understand the trend towards more moire and worse aliasing...it's an odd trend. It is also largely a gimmick. An AA filter restores proper resolving power, eliminating nonsense data and massaging it into useful data. I don't really believe there are enough people who want AA-filter-less cameras that Canon would do this. Again, though, if they only offered a version without an AA filter, and none with, that too would probably end my use of the 7D line. I photograph birds...lack of an AA filter would decimate fine feather detail and leave it riddled with color moire, and there is no way to clean that up in post.
I agree 100 percent on the AA filter.

The articulated screen is slightly different logic, but I end up in the same place. I find the articulated screen to be a very useful feature and would not want to have a camera without one.... But the addition of WiFi and touchscreen interfaces takes things to the next level.... If you can have a phone or iPad that does the same things as the articulated screen, you end up with the possibility of a detached screen that is WAY more versatile than any articulated screen could be. For that reason, I think that the convenience of an articulated screen is less important on newer cameras than it was on previous models, and at least for me, having an articulated screen on a WiFi enabled camera is a non-issue.

We should be seeing more convergence between tablets/phones and DSLRs.

Don't get me wrong, I totally understand the value of an articulating screen, and would love one. But, not at the sacrifice of device durability and weather sealing. Not for the price rance the 7D line generally lives in, anyway (a $800 or cheaper camera is a bit of a different deal...you break the screen, it isn't such a huge deal, nor as costly to fix.)

As you say, though, WiFi changes the game, and makes the whole articulated screen pointless and less capable than the potential alternatives.

jrista

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Re: A 2014 Roadmap Part 1: The 7D Mark II is Coming [CR2]
« Reply #110 on: December 28, 2013, 07:11:59 PM »
For instance, I highly doubt this new sensor will exceed (or even equal) the dynamic range of the existing 24 MP 1.5x sensor being used across the way.  How could it?  It's going to have smaller photosites, by definition, so each will get less photons.  Do any of you really see a quantum leap in crop sensor performance coming soon from Canon?  I don't.

I'd be surprised if Canon's sensors don't move to back-side illumination pretty soon.  It's a quantum leap for high-density sensors like the ones used in cell phones, but the benefit would be smaller in a sensor as big as APS-C unless the sensor's resolution were utterly insane.  Either way, though, it should improve the SNR, and should compensate somewhat for the shrink in pixel size caused by a resolution increase, though I'm not sure exactly how much.

If Canon doesn't move to a 180nm process, moving to BSI on a 500nm process could actually result in fairly significant gains for an APS-C sized sensor. It is absolutely necessary for the tiny form factor sensors in phones and the like these days...hell, some of those sensors might almost be single PIXELs in a larger format sensor given how small they are. :P BSI wouldn't be absolutely necessary for Canon's APS-C, but it would probably offer a greater benefit than for any manufacturers already using 180nm or 90nm processes.

That said...moving to BSI requires a fairly hefty investment in fabs anyway...Canon might as well move to 180nm or a smaller process AND do BSI given the cost necessary to do either one.

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Re: A 2014 Roadmap Part 1: The 7D Mark II is Coming [CR2]
« Reply #111 on: December 31, 2013, 07:22:30 AM »
what about following (naive fallacy):

EOS 5D Mark II
Introduced November 2008

...41 months...

EOS 5D Mark III
Introduced March 2012

...41 months would be...

EOS 5D Mark IV
around August 2014

???

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Re: A 2014 Roadmap Part 1: The 7D Mark II is Coming [CR2]
« Reply #111 on: December 31, 2013, 07:22:30 AM »

Gorku

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Re: A 2014 Roadmap Part 1: The 7D Mark II is Coming [CR2]
« Reply #112 on: December 31, 2013, 07:43:28 AM »
what about following (naive fallacy):

EOS 5D Mark II
Introduced November 2008

...41 months...

EOS 5D Mark III
Introduced March 2012

...41 months would be...

EOS 5D Mark IV
around August 2014

???

no 41 months would be August 2015  :(

gkaefer

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Re: A 2014 Roadmap Part 1: The 7D Mark II is Coming [CR2]
« Reply #113 on: January 01, 2014, 06:13:53 PM »
no 41 months would be August 2015  :(

uups  :D my anticipation...
Georg

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Re: A 2014 Roadmap Part 1: The 7D Mark II is Coming [CR2]
« Reply #114 on: January 02, 2014, 12:47:21 PM »
what about following (naive fallacy):

EOS 5D Mark II
Introduced November 2008

...41 months...

EOS 5D Mark III
Introduced March 2012

...41 months would be...

EOS 5D Mark IV
around August 2014

???

You are a year early...August 2015. And I think that is a MAYBE. The 5D III is already extremely good. I think Aug. 2015 would be the earliest we might see an announcement for a 5D IV, but I really don't suspect one will actually hit the shelves until sometime 2016.

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Re: A 2014 Roadmap Part 1: The 7D Mark II is Coming [CR2]
« Reply #115 on: January 04, 2014, 02:10:46 AM »
No matter how good the upgrade is internally and to the IQ and DR, Just please don't put it in "Plastic". And I strongly agree with the no articulating back. I'd use a second body when that is really needed. One thing I'd like to really see is just the 8-9 frames a second and bring back a new aps-h sensor with the 24 MP density of pixels with wi-fi like the 6D. Coming from the 1D MII world I love the aps-h sensor. I'm sorely disappointed in  Canon's abandonment of the 1D/1Ds lines and merging them into a 1DX. After down loading and printing images from both Nikon's D800 and Canon's 1DX there is just no comparison. Canon shot themselves in the foot for landscape/city skylines. If Canon should bring out a new aps-h senosr in a 7D MII I'd be  standing in line for one if DR and over all IQ at higher ISO setting is achieved. 24mp on an aps-h sensor should leap frog all of Nikon's aps-c 24mp senors for IQ. My 1D MII was ordered the day it was announced and I've never regretted it. Time has come for better and maybe in a lighter body. And above all keep the AA filter. Or make an additional 7D MIIx. I would like to see dual memory card slots as in the 1D series so that the images could be backed up.
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Re: A 2014 Roadmap Part 1: The 7D Mark II is Coming [CR2]
« Reply #116 on: January 04, 2014, 06:30:30 AM »
No matter how good the upgrade is internally and to the IQ and DR, Just please don't put it in "Plastic". And I strongly agree with the no articulating back. I'd use a second body when that is really needed. One thing I'd like to really see is just the 8-9 frames a second and bring back a new aps-h sensor with the 24 MP density of pixels with wi-fi like the 6D. Coming from the 1D MII world I love the aps-h sensor. I'm sorely disappointed in  Canon's abandonment of the 1D/1Ds lines and merging them into a 1DX. After down loading and printing images from both Nikon's D800 and Canon's 1DX there is just no comparison. Canon shot themselves in the foot for landscape/city skylines. If Canon should bring out a new aps-h senosr in a 7D MII I'd be  standing in line for one if DR and over all IQ at higher ISO setting is achieved. 24mp on an aps-h sensor should leap frog all of Nikon's aps-c 24mp senors for IQ. My 1D MII was ordered the day it was announced and I've never regretted it. Time has come for better and maybe in a lighter body. And above all keep the AA filter. Or make an additional 7D MIIx. I would like to see dual memory card slots as in the 1D series so that the images could be backed up.
APS-h is not going to happen. It would not work with any of the APS-c lenses, so that means FF lenses only. You end up with a FF camera with a slightly smaller sensor.

The original reason for APS-h was poor yields and high cost with ff sensors.... A reason which has gone away as manufacturing processes have matured. An APS-h sensor might be five dollars cheaper to produce than FF....
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Re: A 2014 Roadmap Part 1: The 7D Mark II is Coming [CR2]
« Reply #117 on: January 10, 2014, 08:20:20 PM »
For instance, I highly doubt this new sensor will exceed (or even equal) the dynamic range of the existing 24 MP 1.5x sensor being used across the way.  How could it?  It's going to have smaller photosites, by definition, so each will get less photons.  Do any of you really see a quantum leap in crop sensor performance coming soon from Canon?  I don't.

I'd be surprised if Canon's sensors don't move to back-side illumination pretty soon.  It's a quantum leap for high-density sensors like the ones used in cell phones, but the benefit would be smaller in a sensor as big as APS-C unless the sensor's resolution were utterly insane.  Either way, though, it should improve the SNR, and should compensate somewhat for the shrink in pixel size caused by a resolution increase, though I'm not sure exactly how much.

That would be nice.

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Re: A 2014 Roadmap Part 1: The 7D Mark II is Coming [CR2]
« Reply #117 on: January 10, 2014, 08:20:20 PM »