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Author Topic: A 2014 Roadmap Part 1: The 7D Mark II is Coming [CR2]  (Read 18867 times)

jrista

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Re: A 2014 Roadmap Part 1: The 7D Mark II is Coming [CR2]
« Reply #90 on: December 26, 2013, 11:23:44 AM »

I don't want anything more along the lines of "all cameras being video cams and stills being just single frames extracted from the video stream". No, no, no.


You're getting it wrong...
I'm sure, when you use your 7D it isn't always shooting 7-8fps...
If you have 24fps or higher... you just have more chances to capture the perfect moment.
E.g. when a lion pounces on a wilder beast or when a eagle grabs a trout from a river, when Beckam bends it.

People that own a 14fps 1DX.... do you wish for higher?
If so why?
If not, why is 14fps perfect or why not settle for less?

There is a point where you end up with too many frames. At 8fps, I get a LOT of frames. It is a lot of work to wade through them all in post. I imagine 12fps is even more heavy duty work to pick out the good ones and weed out the bad ones in post. Then you have to process them all, and while you can do some of that in bulk, you still have to fine tune each photo. At 24fps or higher, you would just have WAY too many frames to deal with. Not only is that going to use an immensely greater volume of disk space, but it would begin to exponentially increase your workload in post. I can't even imagine what 30 or 60 frames per second would be like...one fraction of a second would get you a dozen frames, a SHORT few-seconds would get you hundreds of frames. It's impractical to have that many frames to deal with in post.

That's why, with a 1D X, you have the handy option of configuring a "slow" burst rate that is lower than 12fps, because you don't necessarily always want so many frames for all kinds of action. Some action benefits from a larger separation between frames, rather than less, and fewer frames is easier to deal with in post. Unlimited frames is not really a good thing, it needlessly increases your workload with rapidly diminishing returns when you get around 20fps and higher.
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Re: A 2014 Roadmap Part 1: The 7D Mark II is Coming [CR2]
« Reply #90 on: December 26, 2013, 11:23:44 AM »

mkabi

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Re: A 2014 Roadmap Part 1: The 7D Mark II is Coming [CR2]
« Reply #91 on: December 26, 2013, 06:47:37 PM »

I don't want anything more along the lines of "all cameras being video cams and stills being just single frames extracted from the video stream". No, no, no.


You're getting it wrong...
I'm sure, when you use your 7D it isn't always shooting 7-8fps...
If you have 24fps or higher... you just have more chances to capture the perfect moment.
E.g. when a lion pounces on a wilder beast or when a eagle grabs a trout from a river, when Beckam bends it.

People that own a 14fps 1DX.... do you wish for higher?
If so why?
If not, why is 14fps perfect or why not settle for less?

There is a point where you end up with too many frames. At 8fps, I get a LOT of frames. It is a lot of work to wade through them all in post. I imagine 12fps is even more heavy duty work to pick out the good ones and weed out the bad ones in post. Then you have to process them all, and while you can do some of that in bulk, you still have to fine tune each photo. At 24fps or higher, you would just have WAY too many frames to deal with. Not only is that going to use an immensely greater volume of disk space, but it would begin to exponentially increase your workload in post. I can't even imagine what 30 or 60 frames per second would be like...one fraction of a second would get you a dozen frames, a SHORT few-seconds would get you hundreds of frames. It's impractical to have that many frames to deal with in post.

That's why, with a 1D X, you have the handy option of configuring a "slow" burst rate that is lower than 12fps, because you don't necessarily always want so many frames for all kinds of action. Some action benefits from a larger separation between frames, rather than less, and fewer frames is easier to deal with in post. Unlimited frames is not really a good thing, it needlessly increases your workload with rapidly diminishing returns when you get around 20fps and higher.

What do you mean, you have to process them all?

If the 1D X has the option of slowing burst rate from 12fps, you think they won't slow it down from 24fps?
Even Magic Lantern allows you to increase and slow down fps... and thats in video mode... I can shoot from 1 or 2fps to all the way to 35fps at 1080p using FPS override.

@Jrista specifically... you currently have the 7D, and you use the 600mm f/4 on it.
I'm sure the 600mm cost you a pretty penny. I've checked out your pictures (on your site), I'm sure you're happy with them, right?

Why not upgrade to FF, instead of wasting your time with APS-C?
And, use extenders to give you that extra reach?

@ Everyone else... Lets be real, look at canon history.... 7D to t2i to 60D to t3i to t4i to t5i... all had the same sensor.
70D comes out, new sensor.... what do you really think is going to be in 7D mark ii? A newer sensor from the 70D? Not a friggin chance....

Even if they took away the video mode, its still going to have 70D sensor in it... canon history shows that....
You're just wasting your breath complaining... if you're happy with the current 7D, stick with it.

I remember reading someone emailing Canon directly about getting a camera to compete with the D800, and they replied back that it is a niche market. Cause it is... a niche market...
Hasselblad, Leica, Mamiya, Phase One.... they cater to this niche market... none of those cameras have video... Image quality is through the roof... but so is price.
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Don Haines

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Re: A 2014 Roadmap Part 1: The 7D Mark II is Coming [CR2]
« Reply #92 on: December 26, 2013, 06:56:13 PM »
What do you mean, you have to process them all?

This raises an interesting question..... Can you batch process images in Lightroom?
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jrista

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Re: A 2014 Roadmap Part 1: The 7D Mark II is Coming [CR2]
« Reply #93 on: December 26, 2013, 07:03:30 PM »
What do you mean, you have to process them all?

This raises an interesting question..... Can you batch process images in Lightroom?

You guys aren't quite understanding. You have to process them all...not necessarily manually tweak each and every image. You have to go through them all and pick keepers and rejects. Not every frame will be ideal. You have to FIND the ideal frames. You have to look at them at full size to identify which ones are ideal. Some frames may appeal ideal as a thumbnail, but end up obviously blurry when viewed at full size. There is no quick way to identify picks and rejects. THAT is a VERY time consuming process, and gets more and more time consuming as RAW image sizes get larger. Having 1-2 second bursts that result in 40-60 frames is insane. Not only would you need terrabyte sized memory cards, you would need tens of terrabytes of disk space to store everything, unless you don't keep the majority of your shots (personally, I keep as much as I can, and only literally delete obvious rejects...plainly out of focus, wildly motion blurred, etc.)

At 60fps, a 2 second burst is 120 frames. That's just a ludicrous amount of data, no matter how you look at it. I would be very happy with 10fps...8fps is sometimes just slightly too short on occasion, and a slightly higher frame rate would fix that. But I wouldn't ever want 20 or more...just far too much data to deal with, requiring a much greater expenditure in storage space across the board. Impractical.

Also, don't forget...keywording, metadata, and any other form of organization of your images. I tend to tune the keywords for and explicitly add metadata to each of the images I do not reject to improve searchability.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2013, 07:11:55 PM by jrista »
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Don Haines

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Re: A 2014 Roadmap Part 1: The 7D Mark II is Coming [CR2]
« Reply #94 on: December 26, 2013, 07:06:21 PM »
What do you mean, you have to process them all?

This raises an interesting question..... Can you batch process images in Lightroom?

Answered my own question..... Yes, you can batch process images in Lightroom..... Kind of shoots the "increased workload with higher frame rates" argument in the foot....
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jrista

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Re: A 2014 Roadmap Part 1: The 7D Mark II is Coming [CR2]
« Reply #95 on: December 26, 2013, 07:09:25 PM »

I don't want anything more along the lines of "all cameras being video cams and stills being just single frames extracted from the video stream". No, no, no.


You're getting it wrong...
I'm sure, when you use your 7D it isn't always shooting 7-8fps...
If you have 24fps or higher... you just have more chances to capture the perfect moment.
E.g. when a lion pounces on a wilder beast or when a eagle grabs a trout from a river, when Beckam bends it.

People that own a 14fps 1DX.... do you wish for higher?
If so why?
If not, why is 14fps perfect or why not settle for less?

There is a point where you end up with too many frames. At 8fps, I get a LOT of frames. It is a lot of work to wade through them all in post. I imagine 12fps is even more heavy duty work to pick out the good ones and weed out the bad ones in post. Then you have to process them all, and while you can do some of that in bulk, you still have to fine tune each photo. At 24fps or higher, you would just have WAY too many frames to deal with. Not only is that going to use an immensely greater volume of disk space, but it would begin to exponentially increase your workload in post. I can't even imagine what 30 or 60 frames per second would be like...one fraction of a second would get you a dozen frames, a SHORT few-seconds would get you hundreds of frames. It's impractical to have that many frames to deal with in post.

That's why, with a 1D X, you have the handy option of configuring a "slow" burst rate that is lower than 12fps, because you don't necessarily always want so many frames for all kinds of action. Some action benefits from a larger separation between frames, rather than less, and fewer frames is easier to deal with in post. Unlimited frames is not really a good thing, it needlessly increases your workload with rapidly diminishing returns when you get around 20fps and higher.

What do you mean, you have to process them all?

See my reply to Don's last message.

If the 1D X has the option of slowing burst rate from 12fps, you think they won't slow it down from 24fps?
Even Magic Lantern allows you to increase and slow down fps... and thats in video mode... I can shoot from 1 or 2fps to all the way to 35fps at 1080p using FPS override.

I am saying that 24fps is beyond the level where most photographers would want to deal with the output. At 20fps and beyond, it's just too much data. There are plenty of times when I think I get too many shots with my 7D...I've spend a considerable amount of effort trying to hone my skill with the shutter button, in an attempt to reduce as much as possible the excess...at this point, I generally get 3-5 frames a burst, and I am generally able to get just the action sequences I want.

@Jrista specifically... you currently have the 7D, and you use the 600mm f/4 on it.
I'm sure the 600mm cost you a pretty penny. I've checked out your pictures (on your site), I'm sure you're happy with them, right?

I am satisfied with some of them. I'm a perfectonist, and in my opinion, I still have a long road ahead of me...

Why not upgrade to FF, instead of wasting your time with APS-C?
And, use extenders to give you that extra reach?

I fully intend to. Buying a $13,000 lens tends to drain you of excess funds for a while. ;)


@ Everyone else... Lets be real, look at canon history.... 7D to t2i to 60D to t3i to t4i to t5i... all had the same sensor.
70D comes out, new sensor.... what do you really think is going to be in 7D mark ii? A newer sensor from the 70D? Not a friggin chance....

Even if they took away the video mode, its still going to have 70D sensor in it... canon history shows that....
You're just wasting your breath complaining... if you're happy with the current 7D, stick with it.

You are conveniently ignoring what Canon themselves have explicitly said about the 7D II. It WILL get a new sensor, and possibly even a new name to go along with whatever "special" think they intend to do with it.
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jrista

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Re: A 2014 Roadmap Part 1: The 7D Mark II is Coming [CR2]
« Reply #96 on: December 26, 2013, 07:11:03 PM »
What do you mean, you have to process them all?

This raises an interesting question..... Can you batch process images in Lightroom?

Answered my own question..... Yes, you can batch process images in Lightroom..... Kind of shoots the "increased workload with higher frame rates" argument in the foot....

Please see my previous answer. It isn't the actual processing. You can batch that, but at least in my case, after batch applying initial edits, each of my picks inevitably needs additional processing. Batch just reduces that part of the workload. The part of post processing that I am referring to, however, is not the editing, its the culling, organizing, etc.
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Re: A 2014 Roadmap Part 1: The 7D Mark II is Coming [CR2]
« Reply #96 on: December 26, 2013, 07:11:03 PM »

mkabi

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Re: A 2014 Roadmap Part 1: The 7D Mark II is Coming [CR2]
« Reply #97 on: December 26, 2013, 07:29:34 PM »

You are conveniently ignoring what Canon themselves have explicitly said about the 7D II. It WILL get a new sensor, and possibly even a new name to go along with whatever "special" think they intend to do with it.

Am I conveniently ignoring? I don't care if I am wrong, but....
Please provide a link to this official press release by Canon.
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mkabi

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Re: A 2014 Roadmap Part 1: The 7D Mark II is Coming [CR2]
« Reply #98 on: December 26, 2013, 09:39:18 PM »

You are conveniently ignoring what Canon themselves have explicitly said about the 7D II. It WILL get a new sensor, and possibly even a new name to go along with whatever "special" think they intend to do with it.

Am I conveniently ignoring? I don't care if I am wrong, but....
Please provide a link to this official press release by Canon.

Oh, by the way... if you have found this "official press release" and they did say that the "7D II will receive a new sensor" technically the sensor from the 70D put into the 7D II is a "new" sensor compared to the original 7D. You can't argue with them if they put in the dual pixel 70D sensor into the 7D, "oh but you said that the 7D II will receive a new sensor" they will say that is a new sensor.
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Re: A 2014 Roadmap Part 1: The 7D Mark II is Coming [CR2]
« Reply #99 on: December 27, 2013, 12:03:48 PM »
Oh, by the way... if you have found this "official press release" and they did say that the "7D II will receive a new sensor" technically the sensor from the 70D put into the 7D II is a "new" sensor compared to the original 7D. You can't argue with them if they put in the dual pixel 70D sensor into the 7D, "oh but you said that the 7D II will receive a new sensor" they will say that is a new sensor.

No, no, no - Canon will not be quite SOOO cheap. Almost, but not quite. ;D

Even with my rather low expectation regarding Canon's innovative zest :-) - I do expect the 7D II (whatever it may be called) .. to be announced in 2014 to NOT have the 70D sensor .. but something "slightly improved" ... say 24 MP and 0.1 EV better DR ... and of course Dualpixel-AF and other "video Optimization" on board.  ;D

I am rather sure ... because otherwise even Canon could not possibly charge USD/€ 2500 for the 7D II (whatever its goin to be called) ... lol
« Last Edit: December 27, 2013, 12:06:00 PM by AvTvM »

mkabi

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Re: A 2014 Roadmap Part 1: The 7D Mark II is Coming [CR2]
« Reply #100 on: December 27, 2013, 12:44:33 PM »
Oh, by the way... if you have found this "official press release" and they did say that the "7D II will receive a new sensor" technically the sensor from the 70D put into the 7D II is a "new" sensor compared to the original 7D. You can't argue with them if they put in the dual pixel 70D sensor into the 7D, "oh but you said that the 7D II will receive a new sensor" they will say that is a new sensor.

No, no, no - Canon will not be quite SOOO cheap. Almost, but not quite. ;D

Even with my rather low expectation regarding Canon's innovative zest :-) - I do expect the 7D II (whatever it may be called) .. to be announced in 2014 to NOT have the 70D sensor .. but something "slightly improved" ... say 24 MP and 0.1 EV better DR ... and of course Dualpixel-AF and other "video Optimization" on board.  ;D

I am rather sure ... because otherwise even Canon could not possibly charge USD/€ 2500 for the 7D II (whatever its goin to be called) ... lol

Really? After 4 years... in terms of MP... the difference between 5D Mark II and the 5D Mark III is 1MP.
Even if you take into consideration, the 50D to 60D to 70D, the increments are relatively small max 2-3MP.
The Biggest surprise of them all was the 1Dx... it was an increase from the 1D, but a decrease from the 1Ds.

You're telling me that the 7D Mark II will have a whole 6MP difference between Mark I & II?
May be if they changed the name, but that won't make it a 7D mark II... its a different gear altogether.

€ 2500 for an APS-C??? Why??? Have you seen the prices of the 6D and even the 5D mark III, lately?

« Last Edit: December 27, 2013, 12:53:50 PM by mkabi »
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Don Haines

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Re: A 2014 Roadmap Part 1: The 7D Mark II is Coming [CR2]
« Reply #101 on: December 27, 2013, 01:10:52 PM »
Oh, by the way... if you have found this "official press release" and they did say that the "7D II will receive a new sensor" technically the sensor from the 70D put into the 7D II is a "new" sensor compared to the original 7D. You can't argue with them if they put in the dual pixel 70D sensor into the 7D, "oh but you said that the 7D II will receive a new sensor" they will say that is a new sensor.

No, no, no - Canon will not be quite SOOO cheap. Almost, but not quite. ;D

Even with my rather low expectation regarding Canon's innovative zest :-) - I do expect the 7D II (whatever it may be called) .. to be announced in 2014 to NOT have the 70D sensor .. but something "slightly improved" ... say 24 MP and 0.1 EV better DR ... and of course Dualpixel-AF and other "video Optimization" on board.  ;D

I am rather sure ... because otherwise even Canon could not possibly charge USD/€ 2500 for the 7D II (whatever its goin to be called) ... lol

Really? After 4 years... in terms of MP... the difference between 5D Mark II and the 5D Mark III is 1MP.
Even if you take into consideration, the 50D to 60D to 70D, the increments are relatively small max 2-3MP.
The Biggest surprise of them all was the 1Dx... it was an increase from the 1D, but a decrease from the 1Ds.

You're telling me that the 7D Mark II will have a whole 6MP difference between Mark I & II?
May be if they changed the name, but that won't make it a 7D mark II... its a different gear altogether.

€ 2500 for an APS-C??? Why??? Have you seen the prices of the 6D and even the 5D mark III, lately?

18 or 20 megapixels is now ancient history..... Just like when 10 was normal and then we all made the big jump to high megapixel cameras with 18 meg sensors, we will soon arrive at a time where 25 meg is the new 18

The best camera is the one in your hands

mkabi

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Re: A 2014 Roadmap Part 1: The 7D Mark II is Coming [CR2]
« Reply #102 on: December 27, 2013, 05:42:04 PM »
Oh, by the way... if you have found this "official press release" and they did say that the "7D II will receive a new sensor" technically the sensor from the 70D put into the 7D II is a "new" sensor compared to the original 7D. You can't argue with them if they put in the dual pixel 70D sensor into the 7D, "oh but you said that the 7D II will receive a new sensor" they will say that is a new sensor.

No, no, no - Canon will not be quite SOOO cheap. Almost, but not quite. ;D

Even with my rather low expectation regarding Canon's innovative zest :-) - I do expect the 7D II (whatever it may be called) .. to be announced in 2014 to NOT have the 70D sensor .. but something "slightly improved" ... say 24 MP and 0.1 EV better DR ... and of course Dualpixel-AF and other "video Optimization" on board.  ;D

I am rather sure ... because otherwise even Canon could not possibly charge USD/€ 2500 for the 7D II (whatever its goin to be called) ... lol

Really? After 4 years... in terms of MP... the difference between 5D Mark II and the 5D Mark III is 1MP.
Even if you take into consideration, the 50D to 60D to 70D, the increments are relatively small max 2-3MP.
The Biggest surprise of them all was the 1Dx... it was an increase from the 1D, but a decrease from the 1Ds.

You're telling me that the 7D Mark II will have a whole 6MP difference between Mark I & II?
May be if they changed the name, but that won't make it a 7D mark II... its a different gear altogether.

€ 2500 for an APS-C??? Why??? Have you seen the prices of the 6D and even the 5D mark III, lately?

18 or 20 megapixels is now ancient history..... Just like when 10 was normal and then we all made the big jump to high megapixel cameras with 18 meg sensors, we will soon arrive at a time where 25 meg is the new 18

I don't think Canon got that memo when they released the 1Dx, SL1, EOS M, EOS M2, t5i, even the 6D and 70D has only 20.2.

I'm not complaining, 18MP is all I need.
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Re: A 2014 Roadmap Part 1: The 7D Mark II is Coming [CR2]
« Reply #102 on: December 27, 2013, 05:42:04 PM »

jrista

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Re: A 2014 Roadmap Part 1: The 7D Mark II is Coming [CR2]
« Reply #103 on: December 27, 2013, 09:52:42 PM »
Oh, by the way... if you have found this "official press release" and they did say that the "7D II will receive a new sensor" technically the sensor from the 70D put into the 7D II is a "new" sensor compared to the original 7D. You can't argue with them if they put in the dual pixel 70D sensor into the 7D, "oh but you said that the 7D II will receive a new sensor" they will say that is a new sensor.

No, no, no - Canon will not be quite SOOO cheap. Almost, but not quite. ;D

Even with my rather low expectation regarding Canon's innovative zest :-) - I do expect the 7D II (whatever it may be called) .. to be announced in 2014 to NOT have the 70D sensor .. but something "slightly improved" ... say 24 MP and 0.1 EV better DR ... and of course Dualpixel-AF and other "video Optimization" on board.  ;D

I am rather sure ... because otherwise even Canon could not possibly charge USD/€ 2500 for the 7D II (whatever its goin to be called) ... lol

Really? After 4 years... in terms of MP... the difference between 5D Mark II and the 5D Mark III is 1MP.
Even if you take into consideration, the 50D to 60D to 70D, the increments are relatively small max 2-3MP.
The Biggest surprise of them all was the 1Dx... it was an increase from the 1D, but a decrease from the 1Ds.

You're telling me that the 7D Mark II will have a whole 6MP difference between Mark I & II?
May be if they changed the name, but that won't make it a 7D mark II... its a different gear altogether.

€ 2500 for an APS-C??? Why??? Have you seen the prices of the 6D and even the 5D mark III, lately?

18 or 20 megapixels is now ancient history..... Just like when 10 was normal and then we all made the big jump to high megapixel cameras with 18 meg sensors, we will soon arrive at a time where 25 meg is the new 18

I don't think Canon got that memo when they released the 1Dx, SL1, EOS M, EOS M2, t5i, even the 6D and 70D has only 20.2.

I'm not complaining, 18MP is all I need.

Canon got the memo people were sending with the 1D X, 5D III and 6D: Fewer megapixels, better high ISO. That WAS the outcry before the D800. I asked for it (along with higher frame rate, which the 1D X delivers in spades.)

However, SINCE the D800, the memo being sent from Canon fans is different. They already got their low megapixel camera that kicks ass at high ISO. Now, they want something different. They want high MP...as many megapixels as they can get their hands on. And more dynamic range. Different messages, different times. Canon delivered, exquisitely, EXACTLY what their customers asked for with the last round of major upgrades. The low-end entry lebel rebels and whatnot don't matter...no one really gives a damn about them, they are unimportant in the grand scheme of things. The 70D is barely important, even, more of a stopgap to fill in the time till the 7D II release than anything, and a tool to showcase the fact that Canon is still innovating in the sensor realm. Consumers will buy the entry level and midrange camera models pretty much regardless, so their stats aren't nearly as important. The camera models that matter are the xD series models. The high end models. The models that have a FOUR YEAR cycle, rather than a one year cycle.

It is still early, rather quite early, for Canon to be releasing replacements for the 1D X, 5D III, and 6D. The 7D was released a bit after the 5D II, so it is no surprise it's coming would be later...however if Canon was indeed caught off guard with the onslaught of high megapixel parts from SoNikon, it is no surprise they require additional time to respond to the new demand, the demand for higher megapixels. The 7D II won't just be some mediocre half-assed upgrade. The 7D is a professional-grade part, Canon knows it's a popular line, Canon knows that simply "using the same old sensor" is just an insult to their customers, and Canon knows that to compete, they have to COMPETE. The chances are low that Canon won't do something very compelling with the 7D II. I also think the chances are relatively low that they will eliminate the 7D line...it's been wildly popular and an exceptionally good seller...seems highly doubtful Canon would do away with such a success.

My Photography
Current Gear: Canon 7D | Canon EF 600mm f/4 L IS II | EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 L IS | EF 16-35mm f/2.8 L | EF 100mm f/2.8 Macro | 50mm f/1.4
New Gear List: Canon 5D III/7D II | Canon EF 300mm f/2.8 L II

CarlTN

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Re: A 2014 Roadmap Part 1: The 7D Mark II is Coming [CR2]
« Reply #104 on: December 27, 2013, 11:08:42 PM »
This thread is entirely too speculative to be a "roadmap", and entirely too argumentative about that speculation...

It's going to amuse me when this new camera turns out to not be everything you all hope it will be, at least regarding image quality (no doubt it will be blindingly fast with pro quality autofocus...which for many of you is all that counts). 

For instance, I highly doubt this new sensor will exceed (or even equal) the dynamic range of the existing 24 MP 1.5x sensor being used across the way.  How could it?  It's going to have smaller photosites, by definition, so each will get less photons.  Do any of you really see a quantum leap in crop sensor performance coming soon from Canon?  I don't.  If they make big strides in sensor performance at all (and that's a big IF), it will go into the new full frame camera.  Why else would the new rumor suddenly be going from 41 MP down to "approximately 35MP" ??  And this is full frame...NOT CROP.  Keep in mind the photosites on the D800 are essentially the same size as their SIXTEEN megapixel 1.5x crop sensor in the old D7000, etc...which already has relatively huge photosites compared to the 70D...which itself, by your speculation, also has much larger photosites than the so-called "7D2", with its 24 MP crammed into the tiny 1.6x crop sensor area. 

I mean, if all you want are the tiniest photosites possible, you should just buy into a micro 4/3 system, and forget all about dynamic range. 
« Last Edit: December 27, 2013, 11:10:59 PM by CarlTN »

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Re: A 2014 Roadmap Part 1: The 7D Mark II is Coming [CR2]
« Reply #104 on: December 27, 2013, 11:08:42 PM »