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Author Topic: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]  (Read 42336 times)

K-amps

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Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #150 on: October 14, 2011, 10:10:15 AM »
I keep coming to this thread and see how Lack of any news/ leaks from Canon has all of us in a Frenzy here... now THAT's marketing  ;D
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Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #150 on: October 14, 2011, 10:10:15 AM »

Picsfor

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Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #151 on: October 14, 2011, 10:11:36 AM »
Do not think it is a 5D3, Jessops seem quite ok with stock. As are they with 60D and 7D. 1D seemed a bit more suspect...

EYEONE

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Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #152 on: October 14, 2011, 10:16:16 AM »
Any potential lens rumors that will come with the new eos body?

I'd love a 14-24mm f2.8L as your name suggests
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Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #153 on: October 14, 2011, 10:18:05 AM »
I keep coming to this thread and see how Lack of any news/ leaks from Canon has all of us in a Frenzy here... now THAT's marketing  ;D
+1, i've also bee doing my own google searches and canon news feeds hoping for somethin CR guy may have missed - can't find anything.

I couldn't afford anything up towards the high end anyway -- yet i'm still bothered - grrr, why is that?
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Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #154 on: October 14, 2011, 10:48:31 AM »

Canon isn't foolish - they'll want to keep a high-end crop camera.  Lots of people upgrading from a Rebel/xxxD or an xxD will have EF-S lenses, and they've shown there's a demand for a top-of-the-line in the APS-C segment.   The 5DII AF is already a handicap.  If they release a 'cheap' FF camera, it will have many handicaps compared to the 7D line (not just a weak AF, but likely xxD build, probably only 3 fps, etc.).

Let's be honest here - many of us, as consumers, want a FF camera with pro AF, enough MP for a decent 1.3x or 1.6x mode, 8-10 fps, excellent build, and priced under $3K.  Could Canon build such a camera?  I bet they could.  Will they?  Of course not.  Their goal is not to make us happy, it's to make money and turn a profit for their shareholders.  As such, they will fragment the market to the largest extent possible, so they have something in every price category yet leave room for people to aspire to the next one up the line.  Have $1K - get an xxD, but not the best APS-C.  Have $1.5K, get a 7D, best APS-C but not FF.  Have $2.5K - get a 5DII, FF but slow and weak AF.  Have $4K - get a 7D and a 5DII, great combination, but then you have two camera to carry, or choose one to take out.  Have $5K - get the APS-H compromise, some great features, but not FF.  Have $7K, get the 1DsIV (hopefully, we'll see that next, please!) - it's the top of the line.  But then you need longer lenses.   :o

Therein lies the problem for Canon.  The current strategy of segmentation (and handicapping) may no longer work, as other competitors have upped the pressure, and really taken advantage by offering more advanced features in the bodies that compete in the (higher priced) market segments.

I for one believe that a response/course correction is (over)due from Canon and that should become clear in the
(hopefully very) near future.

moreorless

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Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #155 on: October 14, 2011, 11:23:36 AM »
Therein lies the problem for Canon.  The current strategy of segmentation (and handicapping) may no longer work, as other competitors have upped the pressure, and really taken advantage by offering more advanced features in the bodies that compete in the (higher priced) market segments.

I for one believe that a response/course correction is (over)due from Canon and that should become clear in the
(hopefully very) near future.

I wouldnt be supprized if Canon kept the same tactics but shifted advances downwards. With AF for ever they could go from 1D/1Ds merged body with full pro AF to the 5D mk3 with 7D AF and a budget FF "6D" with basic AF. The same could happen with the Crop bodies with the 7D mk2 getting full pro AF to set it appart from the 5D mk3 and the xxD the 7D's AF to set it appart from the xxxD's that remain basic.

If you merge the 1D/1Ds then superior FPS could be another way to differentiate it from the 5D mk3 to make up for the AF standards being closer.

K-amps

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Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #156 on: October 14, 2011, 11:25:43 AM »
I keep coming to this thread and see how Lack of any news/ leaks from Canon has all of us in a Frenzy here... now THAT's marketing  ;D
+1, i've also bee doing my own google searches and canon news feeds hoping for somethin CR guy may have missed - can't find anything.

I couldn't afford anything up towards the high end anyway -- yet i'm still bothered - grrr, why is that?

And someone just smited me for that observation...   :-X
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Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #156 on: October 14, 2011, 11:25:43 AM »

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Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #157 on: October 14, 2011, 11:34:53 AM »
I keep coming to this thread and see how Lack of any news/ leaks from Canon has all of us in a Frenzy here... now THAT's marketing  ;D
+1, i've also bee doing my own google searches and canon news feeds hoping for somethin CR guy may have missed - can't find anything.

I couldn't afford anything up towards the high end anyway -- yet i'm still bothered - grrr, why is that?

you're not alone, guys ;D  8)
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kirillica

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Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #158 on: October 14, 2011, 11:35:30 AM »
To answer what Canon can or can't, I will post one quote from friend of mine:
Quote
Why microwave owen manufactures can't put a small battery in it, so clock won't resettled each time it's out of electricity. Sure they can. But then they have no goals to "achieve".
The same thing is happening now. Sure Canon and other parties can do a lot of good things. But they will run out of ideas (or "achievements") very soon. And even the next camera is a huge jump in technology (comparing with one was produced 3 years ago), it still has a lot of things "to be improved" in the feature.

K-amps

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Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #159 on: October 14, 2011, 11:53:07 AM »
I keep coming to this thread and see how Lack of any news/ leaks from Canon has all of us in a Frenzy here... now THAT's marketing  ;D
+1, i've also bee doing my own google searches and canon news feeds hoping for somethin CR guy may have missed - can't find anything.

I couldn't afford anything up towards the high end anyway -- yet i'm still bothered - grrr, why is that?

I tell you what... maybe we can pick up used 5d2/ 7d's at great prices once neuroanatomist upgrades to the new bodies.
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RichST

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Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #160 on: October 14, 2011, 01:04:08 PM »
AFAIK, averaging isn't [necessarily] part of binning. E.g. what a former employer of mine did was add up four adjacent pixels, making up a larger more light sensitive (read: higher ISO) pixel. As light was low, burnt pixels were very rare.

[It was an intra-oral camera, so there were both sensor size issues and heating issues. I still think this could have been resolved without resorting to binning, but that's beside the issue.]

Also note averaging will soften the image.

Either averaging or summation can be used, doesn't really matter, just as long as you can get a single readout from the 4 pixels. This needs to happen before the data gets read off the sensor otherwise you won't get a speed increase. All of this of course will decrease the resolution of the image (sacrificing resolution for speed and/or better light sensitivity is the whole point)

dg28

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Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #161 on: October 14, 2011, 03:19:05 PM »
Remember when they brought the EOS1V film camera out and it was the fifth Canon "1 series" camera (F1, F1n, EOS1, EOS1n then EOS1V) - well this could be the tenth "1 series" camera (EOS1D, EOS1D MkII, EOS1D MkIII and EOS1D MkIV) so what are the chances of getting an EOS1X? It's about time they'd ripped the "D" from model names and the tenth camera would be as good a time as any...

Jussthinkin'...

Neil

heyitslam

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Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #162 on: October 14, 2011, 06:04:24 PM »
@ Gothmoth: Thanks can you let me know where is the right thread for this question?

@ Mt Spokane Photography:
Thanks for the info. You mentioned that an initial price point of $1800
"Get that 7D and enjoy it, nothing is coming soon that would be worth upgrading, considering the $1,800 initial price, and thats without a lens."

Is this the much waited for 5dmk2 replacement?
I was also looking at the 5dmkii number of shops in Canada has it for $2000.
I am not sure if I would want a FF or a 1.6x crop sensor in the 7d.
Reason I was leaning toward the 7d was the faster fps rate.

Any suggestion?

Thanks

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Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #162 on: October 14, 2011, 06:04:24 PM »

Joseph

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Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #163 on: October 14, 2011, 07:54:28 PM »
Quick wikipedia-ing: the EOS 1V did 10fps on a moving mirror, the EOS1nRS did 12fps on a pellicle mirror. And the current 1Dmk4 does 10fps on a moving mirror. (and the best I can find out about the F1 is 9fps, although there probably was a motor drive for 14fps that i didn't find).
Surely it's gotta be possible to go above thiese numbers, we've had 11 years of tech since the 1V, there's got to be a more efficient motor and materials capable of the G-forces involved by now. If the mirror can do it, the rest is just software.

I definitely like the idea of the "2 frames per mirror drop" (or 3).
- Firstly, it'll have to be via a custom function, only for those who want it, because it will almost definitely reduce hit-rate (at least in the first incarnation, coding and algorithms will get better over time).
- Second, they drop the mirror in between each shot for AF-tracking. See my post elsewhere quoting canon talking about their new "dream AF in the near future". If this AF really is that good, maybe it can predictively track moving targets with only dropping the mirror after every 2nd or 3rd shot? Or it can process the images it takes quickly and has improved contrast-based AF to help it keep up without dropping the mirror?
Speculation now, of course, and it may not be in this release, but it will be in *something* within a few years, i'd bet. It'll take processing power and good coding, but it's not impossible.

As for the 18MP FF sensor, I just don't believe it one bit. There is absolutely 0% chance they are going to drop the flagship MP-count DOWN, even if it does 1 million ISO as well as my 7D does iso400, it ain't gonna happen.
If it's 18MP, whether it's FF or APS-H, it's got a 1D-label (or 3D, or 6D, just NOT 1Ds or 5D).
18MP could be the "APS-H crop" mode (i'm too lazy to calculate how big an FF sensor would be for that). If they release an 18mp camera now, then they pretty much have to follow nikon's route with the D3/D3x and release a 30+mp 1Ds sooner rather than later, or too many actual pros will jump ship (and i'll be on ebay to get all their 1Ds3s when they do).

Alternatively, it might be an 18MP FF sensor, iff (which reads 'if and only if' to you non-maths nerds), it's a Foveon-type. (but will they brand it as a 54MP sensor a-la Sigma?).

And just because nikon may or may not have a patent on hardware-cropping, doesn't mean canon can't work around it. P&S cameras have had "digital zoom" for years. the 60/600D has digitalzoom/hardwarecropping for video, so some are already getting around it in some way or another.
Does nikon have the patent just for APS-C cropping? canon can get around that by using APS-H cropping, or even their own APS-C cropping (seeing as canon's APS-C is a different size than nikon's APS-C). Depends on how the patent (if it exists) is written as to how easily they can get around it.

More things to speculate on that noone's mentioned yet.
- Modularity? We can already change focussing screens, how about the whole prism (ie, to a sports-finder?). Will than affect Weather-Sealing too much?
- Flip-Screen? Is pretty much out on a pro-body, for ruggedness and sealing. How about a separete plug-in screen? Even a battery-powered screen via the HDMI plug? Pretty much the same as tethered to a laptop, just a smaller screen and more portable.
- Square sensor? You're going to lose a lot of the image circle with a 36mm square sensor. And using one to crop 36x25 and 25x36 images wastes a lot of real-estate around the edges. Very unlikely.


I don't know if someone already mentioned this , since I am commenting on this as I read it.

But the Frames Per Second issue is not the motor in the cameras , it's the speed in which the sensor can dispurse its electrical charge , and prepare for the next shot - the sensor must drain , and refill with each image shot , and the speed of cicuitry is slowed the larger the sensor is , and the more power the CPU uses - so although they are comming up with new faster ways to charge and discharge the sensor , the MP always going up slowly balances it out from giving huge FPS increases. All we can hope for is a new rapid current charge and discharge that does not affect battery , or more seriously , sensor life span.

niccyboy

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Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #164 on: October 15, 2011, 01:40:56 AM »
Quick wikipedia-ing: the EOS 1V did 10fps on a moving mirror, the EOS1nRS did 12fps on a pellicle mirror. And the current 1Dmk4 does 10fps on a moving mirror. (and the best I can find out about the F1 is 9fps, although there probably was a motor drive for 14fps that i didn't find).
Surely it's gotta be possible to go above thiese numbers, we've had 11 years of tech since the 1V, there's got to be a more efficient motor and materials capable of the G-forces involved by now. If the mirror can do it, the rest is just software.

I definitely like the idea of the "2 frames per mirror drop" (or 3).
- Firstly, it'll have to be via a custom function, only for those who want it, because it will almost definitely reduce hit-rate (at least in the first incarnation, coding and algorithms will get better over time).
- Second, they drop the mirror in between each shot for AF-tracking. See my post elsewhere quoting canon talking about their new "dream AF in the near future". If this AF really is that good, maybe it can predictively track moving targets with only dropping the mirror after every 2nd or 3rd shot? Or it can process the images it takes quickly and has improved contrast-based AF to help it keep up without dropping the mirror?
Speculation now, of course, and it may not be in this release, but it will be in *something* within a few years, i'd bet. It'll take processing power and good coding, but it's not impossible.

As for the 18MP FF sensor, I just don't believe it one bit. There is absolutely 0% chance they are going to drop the flagship MP-count DOWN, even if it does 1 million ISO as well as my 7D does iso400, it ain't gonna happen.
If it's 18MP, whether it's FF or APS-H, it's got a 1D-label (or 3D, or 6D, just NOT 1Ds or 5D).
18MP could be the "APS-H crop" mode (i'm too lazy to calculate how big an FF sensor would be for that). If they release an 18mp camera now, then they pretty much have to follow nikon's route with the D3/D3x and release a 30+mp 1Ds sooner rather than later, or too many actual pros will jump ship (and i'll be on ebay to get all their 1Ds3s when they do).

Alternatively, it might be an 18MP FF sensor, iff (which reads 'if and only if' to you non-maths nerds), it's a Foveon-type. (but will they brand it as a 54MP sensor a-la Sigma?).

And just because nikon may or may not have a patent on hardware-cropping, doesn't mean canon can't work around it. P&S cameras have had "digital zoom" for years. the 60/600D has digitalzoom/hardwarecropping for video, so some are already getting around it in some way or another.
Does nikon have the patent just for APS-C cropping? canon can get around that by using APS-H cropping, or even their own APS-C cropping (seeing as canon's APS-C is a different size than nikon's APS-C). Depends on how the patent (if it exists) is written as to how easily they can get around it.

More things to speculate on that noone's mentioned yet.
- Modularity? We can already change focussing screens, how about the whole prism (ie, to a sports-finder?). Will than affect Weather-Sealing too much?
- Flip-Screen? Is pretty much out on a pro-body, for ruggedness and sealing. How about a separete plug-in screen? Even a battery-powered screen via the HDMI plug? Pretty much the same as tethered to a laptop, just a smaller screen and more portable.
- Square sensor? You're going to lose a lot of the image circle with a 36mm square sensor. And using one to crop 36x25 and 25x36 images wastes a lot of real-estate around the edges. Very unlikely.


I don't know if someone already mentioned this , since I am commenting on this as I read it.

But the Frames Per Second issue is not the motor in the cameras , it's the speed in which the sensor can dispurse its electrical charge , and prepare for the next shot - the sensor must drain , and refill with each image shot , and the speed of cicuitry is slowed the larger the sensor is , and the more power the CPU uses - so although they are comming up with new faster ways to charge and discharge the sensor , the MP always going up slowly balances it out from giving huge FPS increases. All we can hope for is a new rapid current charge and discharge that does not affect battery , or more seriously , sensor life span.


I did not know that. Very interesting!

I'm curious.. So the expansion pack on the faster film cameras merely provided more power?


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Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #164 on: October 15, 2011, 01:40:56 AM »