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Author Topic: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]  (Read 46082 times)

Justin

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Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #90 on: October 13, 2011, 09:36:34 AM »
OK, but it makes little sense from a product standpoint to create a DSLR just for video. No one wants that. DSLRs are form factored for still photos, hence the large expensive redrock aftermarket rigs you see everyone hauling around with a tiny dslr at the core fo them.

While I could see all of the features you mention re: video coming in the next round of cameras, I seriously don't expect Canon to release a video-centric dslr. EF mount camcorder? Sure.

In my mind, the only way your idea works is if Canon makes the stills camera majority of this machine incredibly compelling. At 18mpx full frame I am not compelled to purchase.

do you know what a 16-18 Mpix sensor is great for?

VIDEO

it's exactly what the RED EPIC has: 5K resolution, which leads to very nice 4K video after debayering; on Canon hands, I'd expect it to lead to very nice 1080p with easy 4-to-1 pixel binning

and with a lower resolution it can also be faster, meaning less rolling shutter, and higher frame rates (60p not restricted to 720p)

so my bet is for a 3D, 6D or 8D with full frame, geared for video DSLR enthusiasts

(which one it is, and which price it comes out at, will probably depend on how fast it can shoot stills, and how the video is stored: if it is 1080p with a 4:2:2 codec, I expect 6D or 8D at $1500 to $2500 depending on quality of body; if it is sRAW video at 24fps, expect 3D at $4K or more)

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Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #90 on: October 13, 2011, 09:36:34 AM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #91 on: October 13, 2011, 09:44:21 AM »
AFAIK, 1 pixel on a conventional sensor consists of 1 each of {R, G, B} sub-pixels.
Unless I am really missing something?

You are missing something.  1 pixel on a conventional CMOS or CCD sensor is one photosite, with no subpixels.  Each pixel is covered by one color of the Bayer mask (R G G B).  The de-mosaicing that occurs in RAW processing then uses adjacent pixels to interpolate the color for each pixel, and assign that color to the pixel.  For example, take one photosite covered by a blue mask - that pixel is sensitive to blue light, and the software/firmware uses the data from the surrounding photosites to determine the actual color for that pixel.  The interpolation means that some color information is lost, but the full spatial resolution is available.

Note that a similar issue comes up for the rear LCDs, where resolution is measured in 'dots'.  The specs for the 5DII and 7D list LCDs with "Pixels: Approx. 920,000 dots (VGA)" although on their 5DII specs page, Canon leaves out the word 'dots' which makes it even more misleading than leaving it in.  Nowhere do they tell you that dots ≠ pixels, although it's implied by 'VGA'.  In fact, they count each red, blue, and green subpixel as a 'dot' so they are calculating display resolution as VGA x 3, i.e. 640 x 480 x 3 = 921,600 dots.

Where on Earth do people keep getting this idea from? That an 18MPix Foveon-like sensor is equivalent to an (18*3) MPix "conventional" sensor?

So in terms of quantity of data recorded, both are identical.

For a Foveon-type, an 18 MP sensor is still equivalent to 18 MP in terms of spatial resolution, but unlike the conventional sensor, no color information is lost because each discrete spatial element 'sees' the full visible spectrum, with no interpolation required.

The confusion comes from the manufacturers - if they produce a 10 MP (spatial resolution) Foveon-type sensor, there are actually 30 million photosites, stacked in 10 million little columns of three.  So even though it's really a 10 MP sensor, the marketing folks will obviously want to call it a 30 MP sensor, because we all know that more MP is better.   ::)

As a side note, a Foveon-type sensor is just one way to achieve the effect, albeit a very practical way for a camera.  In photomicroscopy, Zeiss has for many years produced a camera called the AxioCam, which uses a 1 MP CCD sensor plus 'tricks'.  It can take 'standard' images at 1 MP with the Bayer mask and interpolate the colors.  But one trick is to physically move the Bayer mask to make three separate exposures, so each pixel is exposed successively to R G B.  Obvoiusly, not something that would work in a dSLR, but fixed specimens are amenable to sequential imaging like that (in fact, some current color microscope cameras are actually b/w cameras with a color filter wheel in front that rotates through R G B).  Another trick ups the resolution - unlike current dSLRs, the CCD in the AxioCam has no microlenses, so each photosite only sees a small portion of the incoming light.  So, Zeiss also moves the sensor around in sub-pixel increments to expose the photosensitive part of the pixel to different regions of the incoming light - a 2x2 array gives a 5 MP image, and a 3x3 array gives a 12 MP image.  So, with those tricks a simple 1 MP sensor can generate a 12 MP image without any interpolated color!  Of course, it takes 27 separate exposures to make that one image...
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 09:49:50 AM by neuroanatomist »
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chito

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Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #92 on: October 13, 2011, 09:52:49 AM »
Maybe there is something to the Foveon type sensor rumor..
If digic 5 can process information 6 times faster than digic 4 (as claimed).. then why else would you need dual digic 5?

if on a 1DIV dual digic 4 has to process 16Mpix*10fps = 160Mpix/s

maaybe.. a 1DV with dual digic 5 would have to process 18Mpix*16fps*3 layers = 864Mpix/s

160 * 6 times processing speed = 960Mpix/s


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Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #93 on: October 13, 2011, 10:13:45 AM »
do you know what a 16-18 Mpix sensor is great for?

VIDEO

it's exactly what the RED EPIC has: 5K resolution, which leads to very nice 4K video after debayering; on Canon hands, I'd expect it to lead to very nice 1080p with easy 4-to-1 pixel binning

and with a lower resolution it can also be faster, meaning less rolling shutter, and higher frame rates (60p not restricted to 720p)

so my bet is for a 3D, 6D or 8D with full frame, geared for video DSLR enthusiasts

(which one it is, and which price it comes out at, will probably depend on how fast it can shoot stills, and how the video is stored: if it is 1080p with a 4:2:2 codec, I expect 6D or 8D at $1500 to $2500 depending on quality of body; if it is sRAW video at 24fps, expect 3D at $4K or more)

This makes the most sense to me, meaning it's an ADDITION to the 1D line, not a replacement.  I think we'll see another 1D as well for 2012 that the bread and butter sports shooter wants....these guys don't want to lug a 400mm if they don't have to, and if you move their system off the APS-H, they lose that 1.3 crop advantage (unless we get a crop mode built-in).

The speculated high frame rate for stills also hints at some new mechanism that probably was developed to improve the video shutter performance, with the by-product of higher still rates.  Add the ISO performance for cleaner video images as well (fast shutter needs cleaner high ISO).

I think you're on to something here.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 10:16:03 AM by sublime LightWorks »

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Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #94 on: October 13, 2011, 10:17:11 AM »
Some of you might know but I read this a few weeks ago

Quote
Do you have thousands and thousands of dollars to spend, and also a love of super-high quality video? Then mark your calendar for November 3 when RED will be announcing details and shipping info for the new RED Scarlet video camera. RED has been making changes to the device in preparation for its debut, but CEO Jim Jannard is keeping things nice and vague for now.

This was from this post from Maximum PC http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/red_scarlet_be_officially_announced_november_3rd

This video camera is expected to sell for around $5000
and is a Still and motion camera

Lots of stuff happening around November 3rd
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 10:29:43 AM by Warninglabel »
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Bob Howland

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Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #95 on: October 13, 2011, 10:48:40 AM »
do you know what a 16-18 Mpix sensor is great for?

VIDEO

it's exactly what the RED EPIC has: 5K resolution, which leads to very nice 4K video after debayering; on Canon hands, I'd expect it to lead to very nice 1080p with easy 4-to-1 pixel binning

and with a lower resolution it can also be faster, meaning less rolling shutter, and higher frame rates (60p not restricted to 720p)

so my bet is for a 3D, 6D or 8D with full frame, geared for video DSLR enthusiasts

(which one it is, and which price it comes out at, will probably depend on how fast it can shoot stills, and how the video is stored: if it is 1080p with a 4:2:2 codec, I expect 6D or 8D at $1500 to $2500 depending on quality of body; if it is sRAW video at 24fps, expect 3D at $4K or more)

This makes the most sense to me, meaning it's an ADDITION to the 1D line, not a replacement.  I think we'll see another 1D as well for 2012 that the bread and butter sports shooter wants....these guys don't want to lug a 400mm if they don't have to, and if you move their system off the APS-H, they lose that 1.3 crop advantage (unless we get a crop mode built-in).

The speculated high frame rate for stills also hints at some new mechanism that probably was developed to improve the video shutter performance, with the by-product of higher still rates.  Add the ISO performance for cleaner video images as well (fast shutter needs cleaner high ISO).

I think you're on to something here.

Maybe the sports shooters' camera will be moved from APS-H to APS-C but kept at 16MP. I think you two are correct in that this camera will be an addition to the line, optimized for video and low light level shooting. I also expect its output to be 4:2:2, not Raw, and only 1920 X 1080. Raw output, especially 4k raw output, requires extremely fast storage and that level of sophistication will be reserved for camcorders that look like camcorders not DSLRs. Think competition for the Red Epic and Sony's F65.

But I also think that there will be a 1D-something, 27MP FF, introduced in the next few weeks. Whether it is a 1Ds4 or 1D5 will depend on how fast it is. If Digic 5 really can handle 480 million pixels/second, then 10FPS seems likely and 12-14FPS doesn't seem impossible.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 10:59:21 AM by Bob Howland »

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Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #96 on: October 13, 2011, 10:51:58 AM »
  In photomicroscopy, Zeiss has for many years produced a camera called the AxioCam, which uses a 1 MP CCD sensor plus 'tricks'.  It can take 'standard' images at 1 MP with the Bayer mask and interpolate the colors.  But one trick is to physically move the Bayer mask to make three separate exposures, so each pixel is exposed successively to R G B.  Obvoiusly, not something that would work in a dSLR, but fixed specimens are amenable to sequential imaging like that (in fact, some current color microscope cameras are actually b/w cameras with a color filter wheel in front that rotates through R G B).  Another trick ups the resolution - unlike current dSLRs, the CCD in the AxioCam has no microlenses, so each photosite only sees a small portion of the incoming light.  So, Zeiss also moves the sensor around in sub-pixel increments to expose the photosensitive part of the pixel to different regions of the incoming light - a 2x2 array gives a 5 MP image, and a 3x3 array gives a 12 MP image.  So, with those tricks a simple 1 MP sensor can generate a 12 MP image without any interpolated color!  Of course, it takes 27 separate exposures to make that one image...

Isn't that what Hasselblad are doing with their "200" MP H4D ?

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Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #96 on: October 13, 2011, 10:51:58 AM »

theuserjohnny

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Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #97 on: October 13, 2011, 11:48:38 AM »
do you know what a 16-18 Mpix sensor is great for?

VIDEO

it's exactly what the RED EPIC has: 5K resolution, which leads to very nice 4K video after debayering; on Canon hands, I'd expect it to lead to very nice 1080p with easy 4-to-1 pixel binning

and with a lower resolution it can also be faster, meaning less rolling shutter, and higher frame rates (60p not restricted to 720p)

so my bet is for a 3D, 6D or 8D with full frame, geared for video DSLR enthusiasts

(which one it is, and which price it comes out at, will probably depend on how fast it can shoot stills, and how the video is stored: if it is 1080p with a 4:2:2 codec, I expect 6D or 8D at $1500 to $2500 depending on quality of body; if it is sRAW video at 24fps, expect 3D at $4K or more)

This could be cool. If only they could increase that FPS to stupid levels so we can have some fun like a mini phantom flex haha.

But why would they invite canon pro photographers? Wouldn't they try and get Film makers, videographers etc instead?

Most professional photographers do not also own Red Epics. Nor would most of them be in the market for them? Obviously the 50k+ price is a big stopping point, but more so... why would they need one? Combining the features into a PHOTOGRAPHIC camera yes, but what you described is a VIDEO machine...

correct me if i'm wrong but wouldn't it be presenting to the wrong audience?

Pretty much this. When it comes down to it Canon is trying to please the photographers and not the filmmakers. They were caught off guard with how popular the Mark II became to video people. While Canon will continue from now on to add video to their DSLRs they're going to start to make money off of this by creating their new separate line of video camera products (hence the November 3rd event).

Trust me I want a video DSLR as bad as the next person next to me (its why I have my Mark II). But if Canon were to hold an event for this, they would use the 7D and 5DII replacement as their flagship camera. I don't think they'll go RAW on these DSLRs (hence why they're coming out with the new video cameras to go against RED). At most these DSLRs will hopefully go up to 4:2:2. I mean at the moment 4:2:0 is great when coupled with the right software. 4:2:2 would just give it more pop and would make correction less of a pain.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 11:51:07 AM by theuserjohnny »

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« Reply #98 on: October 13, 2011, 12:01:40 PM »
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Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #99 on: October 13, 2011, 12:14:41 PM »
I always wondered why they didn't have a drive mode where the mirror stays up for double or triple frames.  Assuming sensor readout the shutter and write to buffer/flash could keep up, you could get 20 or 30 fps, and still get 10 FPS flashing in the viewfinder; which should be enough to track a subject under most circumstances.

+1
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mortadella

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Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #100 on: October 13, 2011, 12:19:57 PM »
Something has to be inaccurate with those specs...

As many have already mentioned if the new camera has 16-18MP I'd be very surprised if it were to end up being a 1 series camera.

The rest of the spec list seems 1 series worthy (ISO, AF..)

So something has to give, either the MP spec is off, or the the rumor of the camera is confirmed and the specs are a big reach. 

There have been a lot of rumors over the past 3 months or so stating we aren't going to see a new DSLR announcement this year, and before that there was talk of a new 1D, 1Ds, 5D or even a new 6D.

I'd say this could be anything I wouldn't bank on a 1D especially considering the spec list just isn't plausible.  Canon isn't getting out of the megapixel race, and deep down we all know that.

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Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #101 on: October 13, 2011, 12:29:29 PM »
Canon isn't getting out of the megapixel race, and deep down we all know that.

Canon released the 10 MP S90 and G11 at a time when everyone expected them to top the 15 MP G10. The truth is no one knows anything for sure.

I'm betting on mirrorless camera. Others are praying for 1D5, 5D3, 1Ds4 etc etc

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Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #102 on: October 13, 2011, 12:43:44 PM »
I always wondered why they didn't have a drive mode where the mirror stays up for double or triple frames.  Assuming sensor readout the shutter and write to buffer/flash could keep up, you could get 20 or 30 fps, and still get 10 FPS flashing in the viewfinder; which should be enough to track a subject under most circumstances.

+1

+0.5.  I've thought about this, too...but the times when you most want a fast frame rate are with rapidly-moving subjects, and that's when you most need AF between frames.  I wouldn't want 30 fps as in-focus -> a little OOF -> a little more OOF -> in focus -> etc.  Heck, even the S100 I pre-ordered will hit nearly 10 fps (9.6) if it doesn't AF between shots.
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Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #102 on: October 13, 2011, 12:43:44 PM »

lol

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Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #103 on: October 13, 2011, 12:58:08 PM »
On multiple shots per mirror flip, sometimes I have wondered if it would be nice to have focus bracketing if you make the assumption the tracking focus will not be 100% anyway. Perhaps user settable equivalent to a few units of micro-focus adjust either side of nominal, could be done as the tracking is done to minimise the focus travel distance.
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Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #104 on: October 13, 2011, 01:14:54 PM »
do you know what a 16-18 Mpix sensor is great for?

VIDEO

it's exactly what the RED EPIC has: 5K resolution, which leads to very nice 4K video after debayering; on Canon hands, I'd expect it to lead to very nice 1080p with easy 4-to-1 pixel binning

True that lower mp counts are better for video, but what do you mean by easy 4-to-1 pixel binning? If it's what I'm thinking you'd needs lots of megapixels to get to 1080 (1920x4=7680, which would mean about 39mp) and wouldn't need debayering. Maybe you're thinking of what Kodak calls 2x2 binning? (which is apparently very different than what other companies refer to as 2x2 binning). I think RED uses a full scan mode on its sensors that doesn't need binning; every pixel gets read. Now some sort of crop mode with a full readout could work.

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Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #104 on: October 13, 2011, 01:14:54 PM »