July 28, 2014, 03:20:42 AM

Author Topic: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]  (Read 44921 times)

J. McCabe

  • Guest
Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #135 on: October 14, 2011, 03:33:54 AM »
but what do you mean by easy 4-to-1 pixel binning?

I mean: read the full 5K sensor, then average every 4 neighbouring same-color photosites (R=r+r+r+r, etc) to create a 2.5K bayer pattern; store that (which would be awesome) or, in a second step, debayer this to get a sharp 1080p image without aliasing/moire, with lower computational power required (uninformed guess; ur may require digic V to have a dedicated pipeline for averaging in the first step, but I don't think you need a lot of transistors for that)

AFAIK, averaging isn't [necessarily] part of binning. E.g. what a former employer of mine did was add up four adjacent pixels, making up a larger more light sensitive (read: higher ISO) pixel. As light was low, burnt pixels were very rare.

[It was an intra-oral camera, so there were both sensor size issues and heating issues. I still think this could have been resolved without resorting to binning, but that's beside the issue.]

Also note averaging will soften the image.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #135 on: October 14, 2011, 03:33:54 AM »

te4o

  • Canon 70D
  • ****
  • Posts: 287
    • View Profile
Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #136 on: October 14, 2011, 04:48:49 AM »
The tension here is building up - I could not discover any other previous thread in the forum longer than this one (except "What do you expect from the 5DIII - 18 pages) since May 2011 - I can't imagine what disappointment could follow if a rumour like this proves wrong in more than one aspect  - this is quite a bit of pressure on our poor host. Let's relieve it - the 19 of October has a lot more wisdom than all our speculations. I will continue reading CR after this date even if nothing is announced.

5D3 (04/12), Carl Zeiss ZE 21, 35/1.4, 50MP, 100MP
Canon 135/2, Sigma 85/1.4
SONY RX100

ecka

  • 6D
  • *****
  • Posts: 576
  • Size matters ;)
    • View Profile
    • flickr
Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #137 on: October 14, 2011, 05:05:29 AM »
6] FF Foveon? Yes, please. Better details, better color, why not? But I really don't expect to see it in Canon body any time soon.

From what I hear, Foveon sensors have an issue with color accuracy. Of course, the folks who made this claim may be wrong. Or maybe Canon has a solution to this.

Then again, why does everyone think adoption of Foveon sensors is the best solution to all Canon sensor problems? Canon's dynamic range issue has more to do with their sensor electronic layout than anything else (not pixel size etc).
Yes, but it has the potential :)
FF + primes !

Stuart

  • EOS M2
  • ****
  • Posts: 152
  • Hi there, welcome from a photo fan.
    • View Profile
    • JackAllTog on ePhotozine
Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #138 on: October 14, 2011, 05:10:33 AM »
I find it interesting that the Singapore announcement talked of families of EOS devices, if a Foevon device came into the family would this matter.
The 7D was a new family member that very popular.

At the moment i'd guess that its FF Foevon with a dual digic v and there is a video version in 3 weeks in hollywood.
Canon 60D, 24-105, 50 F1.8. 430EX II.
Sigma 10-20, 70 F2.8, 70-300. Studio.
Giotto tripod, Hoya filters.

ecka

  • 6D
  • *****
  • Posts: 576
  • Size matters ;)
    • View Profile
    • flickr
Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #139 on: October 14, 2011, 05:35:08 AM »

3] Both new 1D and 5D will have the same sensor. No 6D, no 3D, no 2D, no 8D, no 4D, no any other "entry level" FF DSLR, a used 5D or 5D2 is your entry level. 5D2 should not be discontinued once 5D3 is released, big price drop expected ($2000?). I don't think that Canon could drop the APS-H just to make another, parallel FF line. It's more about sharing the same sensor and adding more features while keeping the sane price.

Basing the 1D5 and 5D3 around the same sensor would be an interesting departure, in terms of the positioning of the 5D, but more interestingly in terms of achieving economies of manufacturing scale, due to the number of 5Ds that Canon sells.

That would also preserve sales of the 1Ds line, because photographers who really need super-high resolution would not have the option of the 5D line as an alternative.

If this happens, I would expect a sensor that is shared by the 1D5 and 5D3 to be in the region of 27 to 32MP - definitely higher than 18MP.

That is correct. I believe it will be around 30MP

Quote

5] New APS-C sensor next year for all new crop bodies - 7D2, 70D and 650D.

Has Canon painted itself into a corner here by allowing the 600D and 60D to reach the same sensor as the 7D well before Canon really needs to replace the 7D?  It would be difficult for Canon to update the x0D or xx0D lines, especially with a new sensor, before releasing the 7D2.

What this all does still beg the question of is whether Canon would consider a lower MP full frame body.  That is probably dependent on the economics of producing the sensor.  There are probably a lot of enthusiasts who are still put off by the price of the 5D2, but who would pay a price somewhere above that of a 60D, maybe as much as a 7D for a full frame body.
Yes, I'm expecting 7D2 to be the first (spring release season) and 70D to be the last (late summer) while 650D being somewhere in between or in a company with one of those (probably 7D2). On the other hand, all of them could be announced at the same time (spring release) and leave the late summer/autumn (photokina?) event for something else, like 5D3 if it's not coming this month :).
Then again there is a problem, if a "cheap FF" will be born at 7D's price point, it could be "the end" for the 7D. I wouldn't buy a crop camera over FF for the same price. Would you?
FF + primes !

NormanBates

  • 6D
  • *****
  • Posts: 489
  • www.similaar.com
    • View Profile
    • www.similaar.com
Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #140 on: October 14, 2011, 05:40:43 AM »
Then again there is a problem, if a "cheap FF" will be born at 7D's price point, it could be "the end" for the 7D. I wouldn't buy a crop camera over FF for the same price. Would you?

Yes, if I needed better AF and a faster burst mode

but you're right: that may be a relatively small market

neuroanatomist

  • CR GEEK
  • ********
  • Posts: 13580
    • View Profile
Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #141 on: October 14, 2011, 05:58:32 AM »
Then again there is a problem, if a "cheap FF" will be born at 7D's price point, it could be "the end" for the 7D. I wouldn't buy a crop camera over FF for the same price. Would you?

Yes, if I needed better AF and a faster burst mode

but you're right: that may be a relatively small market

Canon isn't foolish - they'll want to keep a high-end crop camera.  Lots of people upgrading from a Rebel/xxxD or an xxD will have EF-S lenses, and they've shown there's a demand for a top-of-the-line in the APS-C segment.   The 5DII AF is already a handicap.  If they release a 'cheap' FF camera, it will have many handicaps compared to the 7D line (not just a weak AF, but likely xxD build, probably only 3 fps, etc.).

Let's be honest here - many of us, as consumers, want a FF camera with pro AF, enough MP for a decent 1.3x or 1.6x mode, 8-10 fps, excellent build, and priced under $3K.  Could Canon build such a camera?  I bet they could.  Will they?  Of course not.  Their goal is not to make us happy, it's to make money and turn a profit for their shareholders.  As such, they will fragment the market to the largest extent possible, so they have something in every price category yet leave room for people to aspire to the next one up the line.  Have $1K - get an xxD, but not the best APS-C.  Have $1.5K, get a 7D, best APS-C but not FF.  Have $2.5K - get a 5DII, FF but slow and weak AF.  Have $4K - get a 7D and a 5DII, great combination, but then you have two camera to carry, or choose one to take out.  Have $5K - get the APS-H compromise, some great features, but not FF.  Have $7K, get the 1DsIV (hopefully, we'll see that next, please!) - it's the top of the line.  But then you need longer lenses.   :o
EOS 1D X, EOS M, and lots of lenses
______________________________
Flickr | TDP Profile/Gear List

canon rumors FORUM

Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #141 on: October 14, 2011, 05:58:32 AM »

adhocphotographer

  • 6D
  • *****
  • Posts: 510
    • View Profile
    • An ad hoc photographer
Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #142 on: October 14, 2011, 06:19:36 AM »
Let's be honest here - many of us, as consumers, want a FF camera with pro AF, enough MP for a decent 1.3x or 1.6x mode, 8-10 fps, excellent build, and priced under $3K.  Could Canon build such a camera?  I bet they could.  Will they?  Of course not.  Their goal is not to make us happy, it's to make money and turn a profit for their shareholders.  As such, they will fragment the market to the largest extent possible, so they have something in every price category yet leave room for people to aspire to the next one up the line.  Have $1K - get an xxD, but not the best APS-C.  Have $1.5K, get a 7D, best APS-C but not FF.  Have $2.5K - get a 5DII, FF but slow and weak AF.  Have $4K - get a 7D and a 5DII, great combination, but then you have two camera to carry, or choose one to take out.  Have $5K - get the APS-H compromise, some great features, but not FF.  Have $7K, get the 1DsIV (hopefully, we'll see that next, please!) - it's the top of the line.  But then you need longer lenses.   :o

Agreed... whatever appears in the next month (or 6) will be planned to form a similar segmented market...

So roll on the next body announcments and bring on a new round of speculation...  :)
5D MkIII + an every expanding array of lenses and accessories!
-------www.adhocphotographer.com--------

gmrza

  • 6D
  • *****
  • Posts: 497
    • View Profile
Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #143 on: October 14, 2011, 06:55:26 AM »
Then again there is a problem, if a "cheap FF" will be born at 7D's price point, it could be "the end" for the 7D. I wouldn't buy a crop camera over FF for the same price. Would you?

Yes, if I needed better AF and a faster burst mode

but you're right: that may be a relatively small market

Canon isn't foolish - they'll want to keep a high-end crop camera.  Lots of people upgrading from a Rebel/xxxD or an xxD will have EF-S lenses, and they've shown there's a demand for a top-of-the-line in the APS-C segment.   The 5DII AF is already a handicap.  If they release a 'cheap' FF camera, it will have many handicaps compared to the 7D line (not just a weak AF, but likely xxD build, probably only 3 fps, etc.).


I think the 7D also has an important place for wildlife photographers.  I don't have a lot of experience with shooting wildlife, but I would say that the 7D makes a good choice for working on foot in areas where you have to carry everything, including your tent on your back.  Canon will need to keep a high end APS-C camera to compete with Nikon and Sony.
Zeiss Ikon Contax II, Sonnar 50mm f/2, Sonnar 135mm f/4

ecka

  • 6D
  • *****
  • Posts: 576
  • Size matters ;)
    • View Profile
    • flickr
Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #144 on: October 14, 2011, 07:27:46 AM »
Then again there is a problem, if a "cheap FF" will be born at 7D's price point, it could be "the end" for the 7D. I wouldn't buy a crop camera over FF for the same price. Would you?

Yes, if I needed better AF and a faster burst mode

but you're right: that may be a relatively small market

Canon isn't foolish - they'll want to keep a high-end crop camera.  Lots of people upgrading from a Rebel/xxxD or an xxD will have EF-S lenses, and they've shown there's a demand for a top-of-the-line in the APS-C segment.   The 5DII AF is already a handicap.  If they release a 'cheap' FF camera, it will have many handicaps compared to the 7D line (not just a weak AF, but likely xxD build, probably only 3 fps, etc.).

Let's be honest here - many of us, as consumers, want a FF camera with pro AF, enough MP for a decent 1.3x or 1.6x mode, 8-10 fps, excellent build, and priced under $3K.  Could Canon build such a camera?  I bet they could.  Will they?  Of course not.  Their goal is not to make us happy, it's to make money and turn a profit for their shareholders.  As such, they will fragment the market to the largest extent possible, so they have something in every price category yet leave room for people to aspire to the next one up the line.  Have $1K - get an xxD, but not the best APS-C.  Have $1.5K, get a 7D, best APS-C but not FF.  Have $2.5K - get a 5DII, FF but slow and weak AF.  Have $4K - get a 7D and a 5DII, great combination, but then you have two camera to carry, or choose one to take out.  Have $5K - get the APS-H compromise, some great features, but not FF.  Have $7K, get the 1DsIV (hopefully, we'll see that next, please!) - it's the top of the line.  But then you need longer lenses.   :o
That's exactly my point. Combine FF sensor with 60D body + 60D AF + 3fps and it's already better than 5D2, isn't it? However, Canon could produce a mirrorless FF camera at $2000 price point with the intention to please the videography market, while killing the M4/3 and NEX (even Leica?) at the same time. Why don't they?

EDIT:
Talking about the longer lenses. FF body with a teleconverter would give you similar (or better) result to what a crop body is capable of.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 07:52:31 AM by ecka »
FF + primes !

Tiho

  • Guest
Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #145 on: October 14, 2011, 08:00:37 AM »
Combine FF sensor with 60D body + 60D AF + 3fps and it's already better than 5D2, isn't it?


You´ll get FF with the same AF, worse fps + worse build quality.  How is that better than 5D2?
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 08:04:03 AM by Tiho »

EYEONE

  • 6D
  • *****
  • Posts: 623
    • View Profile
Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #146 on: October 14, 2011, 08:27:04 AM »
Combine FF sensor with 60D body + 60D AF + 3fps and it's already better than 5D2, isn't it?


You´ll get FF with the same AF, worse fps + worse build quality.  How is that better than 5D2?

Actually the 5DII only has 1 cross type AF point while the 60D has 9. So the 60D, technically, has the surperior AF system. But it's kinda like a race between two turtles...
Canon 5D Mark III w/BG-E11, Canon 7D w/BG-E7: EF 24-70mm f.2.8L, EF 70-200mm f2.8L IS II, EF 40mm f2.8 Pancake STM, Speedlite 430EXII + 430EXI, Canon EOS 3

ecka

  • 6D
  • *****
  • Posts: 576
  • Size matters ;)
    • View Profile
    • flickr
Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #147 on: October 14, 2011, 08:30:51 AM »
Combine FF sensor with 60D body + 60D AF + 3fps and it's already better than 5D2, isn't it?


You´ll get FF with the same AF, worse fps + worse build quality.  How is that better than 5D2?
Well, obviously, it would have a new FF sensor, Digic5 and 60D AF is actually better. I forgot that 5D2 has 3.9fps, not 3fps, I meant to make those equal. I'm sure that for $1500 it would sell like hot cakes and nobody would care about "worse build quality".
FF + primes !

canon rumors FORUM

Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #147 on: October 14, 2011, 08:30:51 AM »

caruser

  • Rebel T5i
  • ****
  • Posts: 125
    • View Profile
Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #148 on: October 14, 2011, 08:39:11 AM »
Couldn't they jump just a bit over this boring market segmentation thing and bring out a 5D3 with the 7D's AF just to sell more big glass?

Canon 14-24

  • Guest
Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #149 on: October 14, 2011, 10:04:46 AM »
Any potential lens rumors that will come with the new eos body?

canon rumors FORUM

Re: New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]
« Reply #149 on: October 14, 2011, 10:04:46 AM »