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Author Topic: The Last, Best Hope For A Digital Camera Rebound Is Failing  (Read 73577 times)

pharp

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Re: The Last, Best Hope For A Digital Camera Rebound Is Failing
« Reply #120 on: January 06, 2014, 08:35:26 AM »
Sure, if there's a mirror that dust doesn't settle directly on the sensor.
Exactly. And that's a great protection to have that you just won't get with a mirror-less.
I am sorry, but you seem to be one of the people who got his DSLR religion, and is not willing to look forward. Windows vs Apple, Windows vs OS/2 Windows vs Linux, iOS vs Android, Android vs Windows 8,.... so many "religious" wars, and yet folks continue to use most of the products.
There are MANY professionals who already dumped D800 5DIII and other "big boy" toys. The fact is that Fuji and Olympus and Sony are ahead of the game of looking towards the future.
I don't believe I belong to any DSLR-religion. I've used both mirror-less and DSLR (and even film :) )
I don't bash mirror-less for any other reason than it's a poor technology when coupled with an interchangable lens design.
Mirror-less cameras are light, provide great picture quality and improve in AF area. What else does one need.
You should obviously use whatever satisfy you :)
I'm just telling you what _I've_ experienced with the various technologies. I recommend against mirror-less only because I have no good experiences with them.
FWIW the mirror doesn't protect the sensor against dust. The shutter on a DSLR however usually is closed when you change lenses, so that helps perhaps. Still, despite the shutter, dust that gets inside the camera can eventually find its way to the sensor. I wouldn't want to use the shutter as a protective screen anyway, because it is very delicate. Best be careful with lens changes no matter what:)
Being considerate when changing lenses is obviously good advice :)
But the mirror does indeed protect the sensor from being directly exposed to the elements.

The dust argument just holds no water in real terms. See also http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=17657.0

MILC have been around for long enough that if this was really an issue, we'd have heard about it - it's not. The mirror is just more surface area to collect dust that can be spread around.  I have both kinds - my DSLR is worse. That is one gripe I haven't heard about the EOS-M. I'm not even certain that changing lenses is the biggest source of dust - normal lens breathing may be worse (e.g. 100-400). I also see many complaints about dust in the viewfinder of DSLRs - I don't recall ever seeing such on MILCs.

It's more important when people vote with their wallet and MILC sales still beat FF DSLRs. Additionally, Metabones sells many Sony to Canon adapters @ $400 a pop! There is demand and the more higher end models we get, the more they'll sell.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 09:18:53 AM by pharp »

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Re: The Last, Best Hope For A Digital Camera Rebound Is Failing
« Reply #120 on: January 06, 2014, 08:35:26 AM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: The Last, Best Hope For A Digital Camera Rebound Is Failing
« Reply #121 on: January 06, 2014, 09:29:20 AM »
Sure, if there's a mirror that dust doesn't settle directly on the sensor.
Exactly. And that's a great protection to have that you just won't get with a mirror-less.

But the mirror does indeed protect the sensor from being directly exposed to the elements.

Sure, it protects from direct exposure to the elements - like, if you are changing a lens in a hail storm or by the side of a gravel road with trucks racing past (and if you're doing that, you're just being foolish).  Dust is not 'direct'.  Think about it - if you dust a shelf, do you need to re-dust it two minutes later?  No.  But two days later, you may need to dust again.   Dust isn't water or small rocks, it floats around and takes time to settle onto a surface.  When you change lenses on any camera, the dust doens't immediately drop onto every flat, exposed surface.  Air enters the body and there's dust suspended in that air.  Some of it will eventually settle onto the sensor, some onto other surfaces inside the body.  In a dSLR, it's likely even be worse than in a mirrorless - every time you take a shot the mirror flips up then down, and that causes settled dust to be resuspended in the air inside the mirror box, meaning more chances for it to re-settle on the sensor. 

But if you want to go on believing you've got a magic mirror in your camera that protects your sensor, that's fine.  Don't ever check your sensor for dust, though, or you'll be in for disappointment. 

FWIW, my 1D X collects a lot more sensor dust than my EOS M.

It's more important when people vote with their wallet and MILC sales still beat FF DSLRs.

People are voting with their wallets - and MILC sales are no where near beating dSLR sales.  In fact, MILC sales lost more ground in 2013 than dSLR sales.  (Not sure why you're comparing MILC specifically to FF dSLRS - that makes no sense.)
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pharp

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Re: The Last, Best Hope For A Digital Camera Rebound Is Failing
« Reply #122 on: January 06, 2014, 09:36:58 AM »
It's more important when people vote with their wallet and MILC sales still beat FF DSLRs.

People are voting with their wallets - and MILC sales are no where near beating dSLR sales.  In fact, MILC sales lost more ground in 2013 than dSLR sales.  (Not sure why you're comparing MILC specifically to FF dSLRS - that makes no sense.)

My point was that even though MILCs aren't selling great right now, in terms of numbers and revenue, they're still ahead of FF cameras and probably always will and nobody is talking about the doom of FF DSLRs (even when they morph into FF MILCs  :D). The problems with MILCs is that the big players have misread the market - only fairly serious photographers care about ILCs. The one bright spot for Olympus has been there OM-Ds, not the little 'pocketable' m43 cameras. Evidently, thats what they plan on concentrating on - smart move. Small size is certainly nice for some occasions (why I bought an OM-D), but it isn't EVERYTHING (why I still have my 7D). I haven't seen any sales figures on the SL-1, but that seems to me to be just another blunder - Yes, they can make a really small DSLR - so what?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 10:01:56 AM by pharp »

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Re: The Last, Best Hope For A Digital Camera Rebound Is Failing
« Reply #123 on: January 06, 2014, 10:03:39 AM »
It's more important when people vote with their wallet and MILC sales still beat FF DSLRs.

People are voting with their wallets - and MILC sales are no where near beating dSLR sales.  In fact, MILC sales lost more ground in 2013 than dSLR sales.  (Not sure why you're comparing MILC specifically to FF dSLRS - that makes no sense.)

My point was that even though MILCs aren't selling great right now, in terms of numbers and revenue, they're still ahead of FF cameras and probably always will and nobody is talking about the doom of FF DSLRs, even when they morph into FF MILCs  :D. The problems with MILCs is that the big players have misread the market - only fairly serious photographers care about ILCs. The one bright spot for Olympus has been there OM-Ds, not the little 'pocketable' m43 cameras. Evidently, thats what they plan on concentrating on - smart move. Small size is certainly nice for some occasions (why I bought an OM-D), but it isn't EVERYTHING (why I still have my 7D). I haven't seen any sales figures on the SL-1, but that seems to me to be just another blunder - Yes, they can make a really small DSLR - so what?

Ok, that makes sense.  Thanks!

On Amazon right now, the SL1 is at number 6 in their sales ranking, higher than the current larger Rebel, the T5i (the T3i and T3 are #1 and #2, presumably because they're much cheaper). 
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pharp

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Re: The Last, Best Hope For A Digital Camera Rebound Is Failing
« Reply #124 on: January 06, 2014, 11:07:49 AM »
On Amazon right now, the SL1 is at number 6 in their sales ranking, higher than the current larger Rebel, the T5i (the T3i and T3 are #1 and #2, presumably because they're much cheaper).

They did of course really improve the SL1 recently - they made it in WHITE!!

neuroanatomist

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Re: The Last, Best Hope For A Digital Camera Rebound Is Failing
« Reply #125 on: January 06, 2014, 11:24:41 AM »
They did of course really improve the SL1 recently - they made it in WHITE!!

Yeah, but they don't sell it in the US...
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pharp

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Re: The Last, Best Hope For A Digital Camera Rebound Is Failing
« Reply #126 on: January 06, 2014, 11:31:57 AM »
They did of course really improve the SL1 recently - they made it in WHITE!!

Yeah, but they don't sell it in the US...

Makes sense, probably afraid it would cannabalize sales of the 5D III.  Of course, they get it right more often than not, but some of their moves ... just makes me shake my head.  I do sometimes wonder why we haven't seen some sort of user cleanable static dust attracting strip - many variants out there, they don't use (hardly) any power. 
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 11:50:35 AM by pharp »

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Re: The Last, Best Hope For A Digital Camera Rebound Is Failing
« Reply #126 on: January 06, 2014, 11:31:57 AM »

MLfan3

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Re: The Last, Best Hope For A Digital Camera Rebound Is Failing
« Reply #127 on: January 06, 2014, 03:38:07 PM »
http://www.businessinsider.com/mirrorless-camera-sales-disappoint-2013-12

Sad stuff

I have the Sony A7R, the NEX7, NEX6 and some m43 in addition to my D800E, 6D and 5D2.

Honestly, I thought I would be able to replace all of my cameras with just 2 cameras the 6D + the A7R when I bought the A7R last Oct, but I quickly found the Sony really unacceptable for most of types of shootings.

While  I think mirroless is the future (no doubt about it) and I love the EVF of the A7R(very clear and easy to MF), everything else about the camera is just lousy or even shitty, and I think Sony cannot do it right, Sony just makes some noise but it won't execute it right.

The sensor is great at base ISO , but even at ISO400 it is very noisy(even compared to my D800e,which I wanted to sell when I got the Sony), it has very highly compressed lossy RAW with some silly 7 bit cording. Due to its lossy RAW compression, the A7R obviously has a stop or so less DR than the D800E from ISO 200 and on , and its mid gray tonal range is worse than that of the D800E.
The A7R is a moire monster , really even at ISO50 it looks quite noisy in the shadow due to its excessive amount of luminance moire.

I tested it a lot , a lot more than I initially thought I would since I did not like it from the very first day I got it, but I was telling to myself " it is great , no worry, you just need to get used to it, then you will love it".
I never loved it , it was a really frustrating camera to shoot with, it produces stunning landscape, city scape ,etc when used with the FE35mm f2.8 ZA or 55mm f1.8ZA, but simply there are too many issues with mount adapters and third party lenses.

I think the most serious issue of this so-called FF mirrorless camera is it is actually not a FF camera when used with third party or old lenses due to its very narrow mount diameter design and special microlens placement.

If you shoot it regularly in real dark night on a solid tripod , maybe 30 sec or longer exposure , you know how bad its vignetting characteristics can be. I initially thought it was the lens but almost all lenses I have used on it produced monsterous amount of vignetting even at f8. Usually in day time photos processed with LR or ACR , you might not see it , but shoot long exposure at night (astro or similar), you'd be shocked how bad it actually is(it is really bad).

The E mount design of narrow mount diameter with extremely short flange back does not fully utilize FF sensor, and always requires special microlens design on the sensor and the lenses that take advantage of the special microlens design.
Thus, no mount adapters work fine on that body.

The second biggest issue with it is it is super slow , everything about the A7R is very slow.
I bought it to shoot street , general everyday life as well as serious studio shots with adapted TSE lenses and Zeiss ZF primes, but my original plans did not work at all.

It is too slow for street , the AF is really lousy , very slow , very inaccurate, always hunts , hunts , hunts when the light level gets a bit lower than ideal.

Formatting card is slow , takes 8secs to format a card , start-up time is slow , takes full 2 secs or so to start up.
General operation speed is slow , switch still to video takes full 4 secs or so.

The A7R really needed electronic first curtain shutter used in the normal 7.
The 36.3 sensor used in the A7R is an old design and does not accept electronic first curtain shutter design , and it is creeping noisy.
The shutter vibration issue is very real , even on a solid tripod it blurs away some details.
The video mode is useless due to heavy compression.

The lens line is not as good as that of the other FF FX systems, it is not a smaller cheaper Leica or ideal Leica replacement, it has too many issues with Leica M glass and real life practicality as a street camera.

The native FE zooms are just too huge for it , the 70-200mm f4 G SSM is a bit bigger than my Nikon AF-S70-200mm f4GEDVR and much heavier than my Canon EF70-200mm f4LISUSM, and of course , a lot slower to AF.

So while on paper , the A7R looks like an ideal camera for many , it is just plain useless camera for most of apps and to me it is the most frustrating camera ever , I really want to love it and it takes stunning images at base ISO and its EVF is just perfect for serious MF work, it is well made and feels great in my hands.
But as a whole it does not work for me or for most of people, I think.

I think Sony should not have released it in this rush, it is literally still in beta stage camera.

I am sad but have to let it go, and wait for some one more serious to follow this path, or Sony finally wakes up to make it right..

But I think Sony can't do system camera or anything requires systematic development.

I think Samsung or Fuji may do it right, but I think what I have been looking for is a FF version of the GH3.




ajfotofilmagem

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Re: The Last, Best Hope For A Digital Camera Rebound Is Failing
« Reply #128 on: January 06, 2014, 05:11:45 PM »
http://www.businessinsider.com/mirrorless-camera-sales-disappoint-2013-12
Sad stuff
I have the Sony A7R, the NEX7, NEX6 and some m43 in addition to my D800E, 6D and 5D2.
Honestly, I thought I would be able to replace all of my cameras with just 2 cameras the 6D + the A7R when I bought the A7R last Oct, but I quickly found the Sony really unacceptable for most of types of shootings.
While  I think mirroless is the future (no doubt about it) and I love the EVF of the A7R(very clear and easy to MF), everything else about the camera is just lousy or even shitty, and I think Sony cannot do it right, Sony just makes some noise but it won't execute it right.
The sensor is great at base ISO , but even at ISO400 it is very noisy(even compared to my D800e,which I wanted to sell when I got the Sony), it has very highly compressed lossy RAW with some silly 7 bit cording. Due to its lossy RAW compression, the A7R obviously has a stop or so less DR than the D800E from ISO 200 and on , and its mid gray tonal range is worse than that of the D800E.
The A7R is a moire monster , really even at ISO50 it looks quite noisy in the shadow due to its excessive amount of luminance moire.
I tested it a lot , a lot more than I initially thought I would since I did not like it from the very first day I got it, but I was telling to myself " it is great , no worry, you just need to get used to it, then you will love it".
I never loved it , it was a really frustrating camera to shoot with, it produces stunning landscape, city scape ,etc when used with the FE35mm f2.8 ZA or 55mm f1.8ZA, but simply there are too many issues with mount adapters and third party lenses.
I think the most serious issue of this so-called FF mirrorless camera is it is actually not a FF camera when used with third party or old lenses due to its very narrow mount diameter design and special microlens placement.
If you shoot it regularly in real dark night on a solid tripod , maybe 30 sec or longer exposure , you know how bad its vignetting characteristics can be. I initially thought it was the lens but almost all lenses I have used on it produced monsterous amount of vignetting even at f8. Usually in day time photos processed with LR or ACR , you might not see it , but shoot long exposure at night (astro or similar), you'd be shocked how bad it actually is(it is really bad).
The E mount design of narrow mount diameter with extremely short flange back does not fully utilize FF sensor, and always requires special microlens design on the sensor and the lenses that take advantage of the special microlens design.
Thus, no mount adapters work fine on that body.
The second biggest issue with it is it is super slow , everything about the A7R is very slow.
I bought it to shoot street , general everyday life as well as serious studio shots with adapted TSE lenses and Zeiss ZF primes, but my original plans did not work at all.
It is too slow for street , the AF is really lousy , very slow , very inaccurate, always hunts , hunts , hunts when the light level gets a bit lower than ideal.
Formatting card is slow , takes 8secs to format a card , start-up time is slow , takes full 2 secs or so to start up.
General operation speed is slow , switch still to video takes full 4 secs or so.
The A7R really needed electronic first curtain shutter used in the normal 7.
The 36.3 sensor used in the A7R is an old design and does not accept electronic first curtain shutter design , and it is creeping noisy.
The shutter vibration issue is very real , even on a solid tripod it blurs away some details.
The video mode is useless due to heavy compression.
The lens line is not as good as that of the other FF FX systems, it is not a smaller cheaper Leica or ideal Leica replacement, it has too many issues with Leica M glass and real life practicality as a street camera.
The native FE zooms are just too huge for it , the 70-200mm f4 G SSM is a bit bigger than my Nikon AF-S70-200mm f4GEDVR and much heavier than my Canon EF70-200mm f4LISUSM, and of course , a lot slower to AF.
So while on paper , the A7R looks like an ideal camera for many , it is just plain useless camera for most of apps and to me it is the most frustrating camera ever , I really want to love it and it takes stunning images at base ISO and its EVF is just perfect for serious MF work, it is well made and feels great in my hands.
But as a whole it does not work for me or for most of people, I think.
I think Sony should not have released it in this rush, it is literally still in beta stage camera.
I am sad but have to let it go, and wait for some one more serious to follow this path, or Sony finally wakes up to make it right..
But I think Sony can't do system camera or anything requires systematic development.
I think Samsung or Fuji may do it right, but I think what I have been looking for is a FF version of the GH3.
I'm not a big fan of mirrorless full frame cameras, but I wish Sony had some success to force Canon to offer something similar (and better). But I am disappointed with the flaws that you pointed out, and I wonder if it would be better to face the problem of distance between lens mount and sensor. I think the small flange distance worked right around the time of the film, but causes problems for digital sensors, even with special microlenses. Today I would not buy a mirrorless, but in the future I might do if canon produces a camera with full compatibility of EF and EF-S lenses. For this the body would have a factor similar to the current SLR shape. In my head, if anyone wants a mirrorless that fits in your pocket, so you must have APS-C sensor. On the other hand, if either one full frame, then it must have an ergonomic favoring use large and heavy lenses.

neuroanatomist

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Re: The Last, Best Hope For A Digital Camera Rebound Is Failing
« Reply #129 on: January 06, 2014, 05:19:07 PM »
In my head, if anyone wants a mirrorless that fits in your pocket, so you must have APS-C sensor. On the other hand, if either one full frame, then it must have an ergonomic favoring use large and heavy lenses.

+1

IMO, that makes 'full frame mirrorless' a solution in search of a problem, instead of the other way around.
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Re: The Last, Best Hope For A Digital Camera Rebound Is Failing
« Reply #130 on: January 06, 2014, 05:24:52 PM »
I think Sony should not have released it in this rush, it is literally still in beta stage camera.

Thanks for the report, any Canon enthusiast will read it with great relief - though some of the problems seem to be a7r-specific and don't occur on the vanilla a7?

It seems Sony is doing the exact opposite of Canon, the latter endlessly recycling and "trickling down" technology. However if pressed to chose I'd take the safe bet, that's why I bought the 6d... my experience with Canon so far is that it's not very innovative & bordering on boring, but it does have a very high "it just works" experience.

Last not least, the more electronics is stuffed into an item, the more premature releases we'll see because supposedly flaws can be fixed later on once the customers discover them :-\

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Re: The Last, Best Hope For A Digital Camera Rebound Is Failing
« Reply #131 on: January 06, 2014, 05:45:52 PM »
http://www.businessinsider.com/mirrorless-camera-sales-disappoint-2013-12

Sad stuff

I have the Sony A7R, the NEX7, NEX6 and some m43 in addition to my D800E, 6D and 5D2.

Honestly, I thought I would be able to replace all of my cameras with just 2 cameras the 6D + the A7R when I bought the A7R last Oct, but I quickly found the Sony really unacceptable for most of types of shootings.

While  I think mirroless is the future (no doubt about it) and I love the EVF of the A7R(very clear and easy to MF), everything else about the camera is just lousy or even shitty, and I think Sony cannot do it right, Sony just makes some noise but it won't execute it right.

The sensor is great at base ISO , but even at ISO400 it is very noisy(even compared to my D800e,which I wanted to sell when I got the Sony), it has very highly compressed lossy RAW with some silly 7 bit cording. Due to its lossy RAW compression, the A7R obviously has a stop or so less DR than the D800E from ISO 200 and on , and its mid gray tonal range is worse than that of the D800E.
The A7R is a moire monster , really even at ISO50 it looks quite noisy in the shadow due to its excessive amount of luminance moire.

I tested it a lot , a lot more than I initially thought I would since I did not like it from the very first day I got it, but I was telling to myself " it is great , no worry, you just need to get used to it, then you will love it".
I never loved it , it was a really frustrating camera to shoot with, it produces stunning landscape, city scape ,etc when used with the FE35mm f2.8 ZA or 55mm f1.8ZA, but simply there are too many issues with mount adapters and third party lenses.

I think the most serious issue of this so-called FF mirrorless camera is it is actually not a FF camera when used with third party or old lenses due to its very narrow mount diameter design and special microlens placement.

If you shoot it regularly in real dark night on a solid tripod , maybe 30 sec or longer exposure , you know how bad its vignetting characteristics can be. I initially thought it was the lens but almost all lenses I have used on it produced monsterous amount of vignetting even at f8. Usually in day time photos processed with LR or ACR , you might not see it , but shoot long exposure at night (astro or similar), you'd be shocked how bad it actually is(it is really bad).

The E mount design of narrow mount diameter with extremely short flange back does not fully utilize FF sensor, and always requires special microlens design on the sensor and the lenses that take advantage of the special microlens design.
Thus, no mount adapters work fine on that body.

The second biggest issue with it is it is super slow , everything about the A7R is very slow.
I bought it to shoot street , general everyday life as well as serious studio shots with adapted TSE lenses and Zeiss ZF primes, but my original plans did not work at all.

It is too slow for street , the AF is really lousy , very slow , very inaccurate, always hunts , hunts , hunts when the light level gets a bit lower than ideal.

Formatting card is slow , takes 8secs to format a card , start-up time is slow , takes full 2 secs or so to start up.
General operation speed is slow , switch still to video takes full 4 secs or so.

The A7R really needed electronic first curtain shutter used in the normal 7.
The 36.3 sensor used in the A7R is an old design and does not accept electronic first curtain shutter design , and it is creeping noisy.
The shutter vibration issue is very real , even on a solid tripod it blurs away some details.
The video mode is useless due to heavy compression.

The lens line is not as good as that of the other FF FX systems, it is not a smaller cheaper Leica or ideal Leica replacement, it has too many issues with Leica M glass and real life practicality as a street camera.

The native FE zooms are just too huge for it , the 70-200mm f4 G SSM is a bit bigger than my Nikon AF-S70-200mm f4GEDVR and much heavier than my Canon EF70-200mm f4LISUSM, and of course , a lot slower to AF.

So while on paper , the A7R looks like an ideal camera for many , it is just plain useless camera for most of apps and to me it is the most frustrating camera ever , I really want to love it and it takes stunning images at base ISO and its EVF is just perfect for serious MF work, it is well made and feels great in my hands.
But as a whole it does not work for me or for most of people, I think.

I think Sony should not have released it in this rush, it is literally still in beta stage camera.

I am sad but have to let it go, and wait for some one more serious to follow this path, or Sony finally wakes up to make it right..

But I think Sony can't do system camera or anything requires systematic development.

I think Samsung or Fuji may do it right, but I think what I have been looking for is a FF version of the GH3.

Bwahahahahaha... I'm sorry dude... I'm not laughing at you... I'm just laughing at the people praising the a7r.
So, you're argument now should be... IQ isn't everything, especially if everything else is f-ing it up.

Anyone else willing to share their A7R experience?
Bah...

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Re: The Last, Best Hope For A Digital Camera Rebound Is Failing
« Reply #132 on: January 06, 2014, 05:49:10 PM »
In my head, if anyone wants a mirrorless that fits in your pocket, so you must have APS-C sensor. On the other hand, if either one full frame, then it must have an ergonomic favoring use large and heavy lenses.

+1

IMO, that makes 'full frame mirrorless' a solution in search of a problem, instead of the other way around.

There is mirrorless, and there is "fits in a pocket" mirrorless. "Fits in a pocket" and FF lenses (with the exception of a pancake lens) are contradictory and not very likely to happen, even with an insane amount of work with diffractive optics....

I have no problems with the concept of a FF mirrorless camera the size of a 5D. To go any smaller you would have to design a whole new series of lenses and you would save an inch of depth at most.... not worth it when you consider the size of FF lenses.. and what happens to IQ when you start bending the light more sharply?

I think Canon will make FF mirrorless cameras, but only when EVF's become vastly superior to an OVF. There will have to be a drastic advantage to get people to change... we tend to be conservative and stuck in our ways and a slight improvement will not lure enough of us away from our OVF.
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Re: The Last, Best Hope For A Digital Camera Rebound Is Failing
« Reply #132 on: January 06, 2014, 05:49:10 PM »

ajfotofilmagem

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Re: The Last, Best Hope For A Digital Camera Rebound Is Failing
« Reply #133 on: January 06, 2014, 09:08:35 PM »
In my head, if anyone wants a mirrorless that fits in your pocket, so you must have APS-C sensor. On the other hand, if either one full frame, then it must have an ergonomic favoring use large and heavy lenses.
+1
IMO, that makes 'full frame mirrorless' a solution in search of a problem, instead of the other way around.
There is mirrorless, and there is "fits in a pocket" mirrorless. "Fits in a pocket" and FF lenses (with the exception of a pancake lens) are contradictory and not very likely to happen, even with an insane amount of work with diffractive optics....
I have no problems with the concept of a FF mirrorless camera the size of a 5D. To go any smaller you would have to design a whole new series of lenses and you would save an inch of depth at most.... not worth it when you consider the size of FF lenses.. and what happens to IQ when you start bending the light more sharply?
I think Canon will make FF mirrorless cameras, but only when EVF's become vastly superior to an OVF. There will have to be a drastic advantage to get people to change... we tend to be conservative and stuck in our ways and a slight improvement will not lure enough of us away from our OVF.
It seems that we are reaching a consensus on the absurdity of wanting a mirrorles that is full frame and while it is small and lightweight. The small distance between lens and sensor still causes problems at the edges of the sensor, even using special microlenses. In the current technological level, it is perfectly plausible a mirrorless camera compatible with EF lenses, with full frame dual pixel AF sensor with 40 megapixel. Could be a great  camera for studio and landscape, with OLED viewfinder with large area and a articulate LCD screen of 5 inches. Similar to current hasselblad body would allow a high capacity battery and optimum heat dissipation. It would be intended for people who do not need the speed of 1DX, and not wanting a small body with A7r.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 09:44:02 PM by ajfotofilmagem »

AvTvM

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Re: The Last, Best Hope For A Digital Camera Rebound Is Failing
« Reply #134 on: January 07, 2014, 07:04:49 AM »
It seems that we are reaching a consensus on the absurdity of wanting a mirrorles that is full frame and while it is small and lightweight.

no way.

I still want a "Sony A7R killer" from Canon. Small & light with a few native pancake fixed-focal lenses, when I want to go small and light. Extremely powerful and responsive with an excellent user interface. Simple, but fully functional, no compromise in AF-speed adapter with Arca-swiss grooved tripod socket for all EF-lenses. AF speed, AF-spread, fps, responsiveness and full photographic control even better than 1D X ... thanks to fully articulated touchscreen and brilliant EVF. WiFI, NFC, GPS and RT radio wireless flash controller all built-in. Battery charge 500+ shots. Absolutely silent and vibration-free fully electronic shutter. No more mechanically moving components whatsoever inside. A "solid state" digital camera in a robust, IP67-sealed hi-grade Carbon fiber outer shell and a strong steel chassis underneath. 

In essence: 1D X = large old-style mechanical hard disk drive (HDD).
What I want is very simple: a modern, sweet little high-performance SSD.  :-)

Price? Like a Sony A7R ... around 2k, since all the expensive to manufacture, assemble, adjust and quality-assure mirror-slapping crap and chunky prism are not needed any longer. :-)
« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 08:56:31 AM by AvTvM »

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Re: The Last, Best Hope For A Digital Camera Rebound Is Failing
« Reply #134 on: January 07, 2014, 07:04:49 AM »