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Author Topic: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]  (Read 41125 times)

jrista

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #45 on: January 09, 2014, 11:18:43 PM »
I'm sure you guys still remember this ::)

To be honest, I'm one of those thought Canon going to have something in vintage as well. Last time I check, Df didn't do welllllllll

I think it didn't do well because of the borked controls, not because it was "vintage". I'd welcome a Canon vintage body design, so long as it did not include the hideous stacked dial controls and...well, basically kept the phenomenal electronic controls and button placement that is now standard on Canon pro bodies, just in a nostalgic retro body design. And, yes, with out any video features...at all... ;o)
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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #45 on: January 09, 2014, 11:18:43 PM »

jrista

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #46 on: January 09, 2014, 11:21:47 PM »
Canon doesn't have to answer the D4s. It needs to answer the D800(e).

Both the 1DX and D4 are incredible cameras in every way. So if the D4s is a little better. That's nice. Canon doesn't have to worry about that. No person who owns a 1DX and everything associated with it is going to sell their gear for a slight improvement from Nikon. And that goes for both manufacturer's user bases. It's not going to happen. At least not with Pros and REAL photographers.

I doubt the D4s will be better. It will be newer, might have a better sensor...but the 1D X AF has been smearing the floor with every Nikon body since it hit the shelves, and it still has the fastest frame rate on the planet. Frame rate and AF are where it's all at for bodies like the 1D X and D4. I don't foresee Nikon overcoming that in the D4s...not without a radical new AF design, but I don't really see that either because they already have the 51pt system (and the Nikon Rumors link only notes improved "autofocus performance", not a new AF system...sounds like firmware to me.)
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jrista

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #47 on: January 09, 2014, 11:28:52 PM »
Canon doesn't have to answer the D4s. It needs to answer the D800(e).

No, they really don't. The 5DIII was the answer, and it has outsold the D800 and far outsold the D800E.

I still think it's possible we'll see a high MP sensor from Canon in the future, not as an 'answer' but rather to capture a part of the market they feel may be untapped.  But we'll only see that if Canon feels there's enough of a market for it.  I wonder if the D800 sales might be pointing them in another direction...

I agree, Canon does not need to have an answer for the D4s. I am not sure I would call the 5D III the answer to the D800. The 5D III was WELL under way long before the D800 was released. The 5D III is Canon's answer to their own customers outcry, particularly the wedding photographer.

I suspect a high MP camera from Canon will service the studio segment that the 1Ds used to service, and possibly the landscape photographers. God only knows if it will still be a 1-series, or whether it will take on a new name...but again I don't think it will be direct competition for the D800. I don't think Canon even cares to directly compete with the D800, or any Nikon camera for that matter. One of the things I like about Canon is they ultimately seem to listen to their customers. Both the 1D X and 5D III very nicely thoroughly answered the biggest and loudest demands from Canon customers up until the date of their release.

Seeing as more DR and more megapixels is now the biggest and loudest demand from Canon customers, I have confidence Canon will deliver. Whether the packages that delivery is served in "directly" competes with anything from Nikon or Sony, however, is yet to be seen...but I wouldn't recommend anyone hold their breath.
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Ricku

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #48 on: January 10, 2014, 12:08:35 AM »
Canon should forget about answering the D800 and D4S.

Instead, they should use their upcoming sensor tech to answer the Sony A7R.  :P Now that would make me a happy canonite.

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #49 on: January 10, 2014, 02:15:54 AM »
Canon doesn't have to answer the D4s. It needs to answer the D800(e).

No, they really don't. The 5DIII was the answer, and it has outsold the D800 and far outsold the D800E.

I still think it's possible we'll see a high MP sensor from Canon in the future, not as an 'answer' but rather to capture a part of the market they feel may be untapped.  But we'll only see that if Canon feels there's enough of a market for it.  I wonder if the D800 sales might be pointing them in another direction...

This is a sensible, yet very stupid, way to look at it. Fans of music artists also waste time on caring about the sales of their own favorite artists. In the end though, all that should be irrelevant to the fans. It doesn't matter if plenty of others bump the same music. Bad sales might actually force something better out the next time.

Canon's sales don't really matter to me. Or actually... Had the 5D3 flopped, Canon would most likely work hard to make improvements and maybe they'd even unlock some of the features that have been artificially hidden to justify the 1DX price tag.

From a sales point of view you can say that they don't have to do S___ now, but instead of viewing the whole situation as a competition agains Nikon, there are other aspects. Besides, they need to beat the crap out of the 5D3 with the upcoming replacement to get money from the 5D3 purchasers again.

The bottom line is though that I don't care how well Canon does on the markets. Nikon can outsell Canon and I just don't care. For me the thing that matters here is the equipment I can afford to use. Surely it's heavily linked to the markets, but that's none of my business.
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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #50 on: January 10, 2014, 02:22:18 AM »
I think Canon has planned this very carefully and from a marketing perspective it could be a scoop. Their current position with the 1DX (especially after FW 2.03) and 5DIII is not really threatened. As we know, the 800/800E did not boost Nikon´s market position and I agree with those who say that the D4s probably only makes those who already shoot Nikon stay with Nikon.

At the Winter Olympics we will see a number of numberless 1-series and perhaps also 7D-type bodies and hopefully some spectacular images coming out of it. That will create an enormous interest and may well cause Nikon shooters to consider jumping ship before the Soccer World Cup, when they will become available.

Looking in the mirror, from a business perspective, Canon have been quite successful with their timing, regardless of some of the most frustrated postings on CR. To release the next generation bodies, with sensors answering both resolution and DR in a year with both Winter Olympics and a Soccer World Cup ... Pretty much a marketing bulls eye in my opinion.
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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #51 on: January 10, 2014, 02:29:10 AM »
from another thread -

I was just wondering about where Canons innovation has gone? Sure, they put a touch screen on a dslr, but that is not really innovative. We´ve had this on smart phones for a long time (yes, they are caneras as well), but that is about it. WiFi? They have offered WiFi for a long time as well, but as an add on feature. Integrating it is more of an evolution, the same as with the touch screen.

The reason I ask this question, "where are the innovation" is because I recently bought my wife a Sony NEX-6, anf my poor 550D looked really really ancient next to it!! Dont get me wrong, I do enjoy shooting my canon, and I have solid lenses, but it really was a huge gap between the Canon and the Sony.

I do think that Canon produces very good, solid performing cameras, no doubt. The 5D3 and the 1DX really dont have true competition. They are not the best at everything, but as a whole, perhaps the best tools avaliable for the professionals. However, I´m not a professional, though quite enthustiastic :)
Where is Canons equivalent to the Sony A7/R or the Nikon DF? Where is the downloadable apps for the Camera, motion sensors etc.? The EOS M? Never tried it, but from what I understand, a good, solid performer (after the FW update), but not very innovative.

The thing is, the people at Canon are not stupid, I am sure they have all the technology in the world to make super innovative cameras (yes, even fix the DR-problem that really isn´t a problem), but why dont they show us, or just give us some hints? Where are Canon at the CES?

I am not the type that want the latest and greatest technology at the moment it is released. But, I am gonna upgrade my equipment in a couple of years. Hopefully I can stick to Canon and not feel I´m buying an old relic.


First off, check patent filings. Canon innovated almost 3200 times last year. Thats a lot of innovation, and from a patent count standpoint, Canon actually innovated more than Sony, and a hell of a lot more than Nikon.

Second, adding a touch screen to a camera could be considered innovative. They did not innovate touch screens, but they have produced some innovative ways of accessing and managing camera settings and configuration.

Third, are you seriously forgetting all the innovations Canon has included in their most recent cameras? The 1D X alone is PACKED with innovation, several in the AF system, several more in their metering system, the way their meter and AF system is linked with a dedicated processor is innovative, they innovated with their new shutter and mirror assembly that broke the 12fps barrier, they innovated Dual Pixel AF.

Don't forget, photography is as much about the lens as it is about the sensor and the camera. Canon has even more innovations packed into their newest lenses, and they have a whole host of additional lens releases slated for 2014.

I think your being naive if you think that simply responding to your competitors is innovative. On the contrary, being a copy-cat "me too!" company is actually about the farthest thing from innovative as you can get. Nikon is actually not a very innovative company. Nikon is a company of alliances...they ally themselves with counterbodies like Sony, then buy and sometimes share their own technology in order to produce a product. Nikon does not have a cohesive approach to producing cameras...just look at their camera model naming scheme, and the only thing you'll see is schizophrenia. Nikon camera names are chaotic, confusing, and even potentially conflicting. Nikon, since they don't innovate critical technology, has some extra time to produce fancy little tidbits such as 24karat gold plated cameras, the Nikon Df, and a whole host of other random, one-off, and frequently quirky little devices that...for a SHORT time...make fans rave, but over the long run do NOTHING to make them a better company.

Canon, on the other hand, is most assuredly innovative. Canon, given their track record, doesn't give a flying rat's ass about "the competition." Canon rarely produces cameras that "directly" compete with anything their primary competition has to offer...which is why we don't often see things like a Canon SomethingD with 36mp, or a full frame mirrorless to "directly compete with" the Sony A7r. We probably WON'T see such things either. Canon is not a copycat "me too!" company. They are an innovative company. Canon, as it stands, is actually a company that really seems to listen to their customers, is diligent about filtering the noise from the critical customer demands, careful and conservative in their development, testing, and refinement of their products, and will deliver when they believe they have found a product that TRULY answers THEIR, CANON'S, CUSTOMER DEMANDS. Whatever Canon releases in the coming years, I highly doubt anything but the 1D X will have any "direct" competition from either Sony or Nikon. Whatever Canon releases, it will rather pointedly service Canon customer needs.

Canon hasn't stopped innovating. They just aren't rushing. (Oh, and they have no reason to "hype" by dropping pointless little rumorbombs all over the place to get peoples hopes up about technology that isn't ready yet.)


i think the points about canon being a solid, pragmatic company that sets a plan and goes forth, not breaking the plan in order to one up ohters that make leaps of desperation quite germane to this topic...

with that said...yeah...why is this a CR2??????
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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #51 on: January 10, 2014, 02:29:10 AM »

ewg963

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #52 on: January 10, 2014, 02:58:38 AM »
Yes I agree please stop with the rebels enough already!!!! 7D II would be nice maybe a 14-24mm 2.8 glass or another 1 series???

Profits from Rebel sales subsidize the R&D for the 7D2 and 1-series cameras.
Good point O
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Albi86

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #53 on: January 10, 2014, 03:01:17 AM »
3 new highend bodies? So one is supposed to be a 7D2, another is the high MP 1D body, and possibly the 1Dx successor is the third? Makes sense if we're having a 5D4 in feb/mar 2015.

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #54 on: January 10, 2014, 05:00:26 AM »
Canon doesn't have to answer the D4s. It needs to answer the D800(e).

No, they really don't. The 5DIII was the answer, and it has outsold the D800 and far outsold the D800E.

I still think it's possible we'll see a high MP sensor from Canon in the future, not as an 'answer' but rather to capture a part of the market they feel may be untapped.  But we'll only see that if Canon feels there's enough of a market for it.  I wonder if the D800 sales might be pointing them in another direction...

Yep, there's a world of difference between corporate sales spin and market realities...Canon are masters of weighing the two in a fine balance. I would take a balanced and versatile camera like the 1DX or 5DIII over the crazy specs of the D800E any day. 

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #55 on: January 10, 2014, 05:14:49 AM »
Canon doesn't have to answer the D4s. It needs to answer the D800(e).

No, they really don't. The 5DIII was the answer, and it has outsold the D800 and far outsold the D800E.

Can you point me to the source of this information. I didn't know that Canon or Nikon released this info.

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #56 on: January 10, 2014, 05:38:00 AM »
Canon doesn't have to answer the D4s. It needs to answer the D800(e).

No, they really don't. The 5DIII was the answer, and it has outsold the D800 and far outsold the D800E.

I still think it's possible we'll see a high MP sensor from Canon in the future, not as an 'answer' but rather to capture a part of the market they feel may be untapped.  But we'll only see that if Canon feels there's enough of a market for it.  I wonder if the D800 sales might be pointing them in another direction...

This is a sensible, yet very stupid, way to look at it. Fans of music artists also waste time on caring about the sales of their own favorite artists. In the end though, all that should be irrelevant to the fans. It doesn't matter if plenty of others bump the same music. Bad sales might actually force something better out the next time.

Canon's sales don't really matter to me. Or actually... Had the 5D3 flopped, Canon would most likely work hard to make improvements and maybe they'd even unlock some of the features that have been artificially hidden to justify the 1DX price tag.

From a sales point of view you can say that they don't have to do S___ now, but instead of viewing the whole situation as a competition agains Nikon, there are other aspects. Besides, they need to beat the crap out of the 5D3 with the upcoming replacement to get money from the 5D3 purchasers again.

The bottom line is though that I don't care how well Canon does on the markets. Nikon can outsell Canon and I just don't care. For me the thing that matters here is the equipment I can afford to use. Surely it's heavily linked to the markets, but that's none of my business.

The 5DIII is the answer to the 5DII not the D800E...I'm not sure Canon are particualrly bothered at how Nikon splice their line up. The D700 was a huge sucess for Nikon photographers but a disaster for Nikon. It was essentially the same camera as their premium D3...but for a lot less and it totally raided the sales of their flagship. So when it came around to the D700's replacement, the cold reality of a consistent product line up forced Nikon to totally change the direction for that camera line. It's the kind of mistake which Canon rarely gets it self into. They are far more cautious and wiser with their products. Look at the 5D -> 5DII -> 5DIII...it's an evolution which doesn't confuse or frustrate their customer base. Take a look at the 1Dx and 5DIII....neither eat the sales of each other, quite the opposite they compliment. The problem Canon has with the 7DII is that it is a direct challenger to the 1Dx...and the 70D has filled the niche which the 7D once held. So one has to wonder how or where Canon will take the 7DII. It's slow to arrive becuase Canon are thinking about that camera very carefully. 

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #57 on: January 10, 2014, 05:56:55 AM »
I think Canon has planned this very carefully and from a marketing perspective it could be a scoop. Their current position with the 1DX (especially after FW 2.03) and 5DIII is not really threatened. As we know, the 800/800E did not boost Nikon´s market position and I agree with those who say that the D4s probably only makes those who already shoot Nikon stay with Nikon.

At the Winter Olympics we will see a number of numberless 1-series and perhaps also 7D-type bodies and hopefully some spectacular images coming out of it. That will create an enormous interest and may well cause Nikon shooters to consider jumping ship before the Soccer World Cup, when they will become available.

Looking in the mirror, from a business perspective, Canon have been quite successful with their timing, regardless of some of the most frustrated postings on CR. To release the next generation bodies, with sensors answering both resolution and DR in a year with both Winter Olympics and a Soccer World Cup ... Pretty much a marketing bulls eye in my opinion.
Do you own stock in Canon? ::) In what way is their conservative / boring innovation, but successful marketing exciting and fun for you as a photographer? Personally, I couldn't care less that Canon still holds the biggest market share.

But maybe their market position is why they aren't trying as hard as SoNikon and others? Why hurry up with new sensor tech, lenses (and even things like FF mirrorless) if you already have a huge customer base who always bends over backwards?
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 06:03:21 AM by Ricku »

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #57 on: January 10, 2014, 05:56:55 AM »

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #58 on: January 10, 2014, 06:51:43 AM »
Canon doesn't have to answer the D4s. It needs to answer the D800(e).

No, they really don't. The 5DIII was the answer, and it has outsold the D800 and far outsold the D800E.

I still think it's possible we'll see a high MP sensor from Canon in the future, not as an 'answer' but rather to capture a part of the market they feel may be untapped.  But we'll only see that if Canon feels there's enough of a market for it.  I wonder if the D800 sales might be pointing them in another direction...

This is a sensible, yet very stupid, way to look at it. Fans of music artists also waste time on caring about the sales of their own favorite artists. In the end though, all that should be irrelevant to the fans. It doesn't matter if plenty of others bump the same music. Bad sales might actually force something better out the next time.

Canon's sales don't really matter to me. Or actually... Had the 5D3 flopped, Canon would most likely work hard to make improvements and maybe they'd even unlock some of the features that have been artificially hidden to justify the 1DX price tag.

From a sales point of view you can say that they don't have to do S___ now, but instead of viewing the whole situation as a competition agains Nikon, there are other aspects. Besides, they need to beat the crap out of the 5D3 with the upcoming replacement to get money from the 5D3 purchasers again.

The bottom line is though that I don't care how well Canon does on the markets. Nikon can outsell Canon and I just don't care. For me the thing that matters here is the equipment I can afford to use. Surely it's heavily linked to the markets, but that's none of my business.

Lots of contradictions there!  Music fans shouldn't care about sales, bad sales might force the artist to do better.  Same with the 5DIII.  So we shouldn't care about sales, even though you acknowledge that sales will alter what comes next?

Some people like to keep their heads in the sand, that's ok for them.  Since I'm happy with some aspects of my Canon gear, and dissatisfied with others, I care about the business drivers that are going to determine what Canon does next.
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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #59 on: January 10, 2014, 07:17:31 AM »
I think Canon has planned this very carefully and from a marketing perspective it could be a scoop. Their current position with the 1DX (especially after FW 2.03) and 5DIII is not really threatened. As we know, the 800/800E did not boost Nikon´s market position and I agree with those who say that the D4s probably only makes those who already shoot Nikon stay with Nikon.

At the Winter Olympics we will see a number of numberless 1-series and perhaps also 7D-type bodies and hopefully some spectacular images coming out of it. That will create an enormous interest and may well cause Nikon shooters to consider jumping ship before the Soccer World Cup, when they will become available.

Looking in the mirror, from a business perspective, Canon have been quite successful with their timing, regardless of some of the most frustrated postings on CR. To release the next generation bodies, with sensors answering both resolution and DR in a year with both Winter Olympics and a Soccer World Cup ... Pretty much a marketing bulls eye in my opinion.
Do you own stock in Canon? ::) In what way is their conservative / boring innovation, but successful marketing exciting and fun for you as a photographer? Personally, I couldn't care less that Canon still holds the biggest market share.

But maybe their market position is why they aren't trying as hard as SoNikon and others? Why hurry up with new sensor tech, lenses (and even things like FF mirrorless) if you already have a huge customer base who always bends over backwards?

Please tell me how the lack of resolution and DR (2 stops! hardly noticeable with decent exposure on real life images and upwards of ISO 400) with your Canon gear imploded your images that cost you money and your clients?

It blows my mind how some folk love to complain about Canon and their "lack" of innovations, it was not that long ago when Canon completely changed the photography world with the 1Ds III, 5D II, 7D and the recent 61AF en metering system and it kicks its competitors ass almost every way. Please deny this! If you are unable to take decent to phenomenal shots with today's Canon offerings, which is by far one of the best and innovative systems on the planet, you should consider a different hobby/job.


« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 07:20:12 AM by Memdroid »
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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #59 on: January 10, 2014, 07:17:31 AM »