September 21, 2014, 04:20:51 AM

Author Topic: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]  (Read 43574 times)

neuroanatomist

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #60 on: January 10, 2014, 07:23:53 AM »
Canon doesn't have to answer the D4s. It needs to answer the D800(e).
No, they really don't. The 5DIII was the answer, and it has outsold the D800 and far outsold the D800E.
Can you point me to the source of this information. I didn't know that Canon or Nikon released this info.

They don't publish numbers for specific models, true.  In their Q2 financials call (Nov), Nikon indicated worse than expected sales of their high-end models.  Canon cut their dSLR sales forecast, but one of their execs commented that sales of high end models were doing well.  The limited, anecdotal sales data available indicate the 5DIII is selling more in the larger markets.  The above, coupled with Canon's already greater overall market share, support that the 5DIII is the better seller.

Plus, the Internet says so.  :P
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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #60 on: January 10, 2014, 07:23:53 AM »

Eldar

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #61 on: January 10, 2014, 07:36:40 AM »
I think Canon has planned this very carefully and from a marketing perspective it could be a scoop. Their current position with the 1DX (especially after FW 2.03) and 5DIII is not really threatened. As we know, the 800/800E did not boost Nikon´s market position and I agree with those who say that the D4s probably only makes those who already shoot Nikon stay with Nikon.

At the Winter Olympics we will see a number of numberless 1-series and perhaps also 7D-type bodies and hopefully some spectacular images coming out of it. That will create an enormous interest and may well cause Nikon shooters to consider jumping ship before the Soccer World Cup, when they will become available.

Looking in the mirror, from a business perspective, Canon have been quite successful with their timing, regardless of some of the most frustrated postings on CR. To release the next generation bodies, with sensors answering both resolution and DR in a year with both Winter Olympics and a Soccer World Cup ... Pretty much a marketing bulls eye in my opinion.
Do you own stock in Canon? ::) In what way is their conservative / boring innovation, but successful marketing exciting and fun for you as a photographer? Personally, I couldn't care less that Canon still holds the biggest market share.

But maybe their market position is why they aren't trying as hard as SoNikon and others? Why hurry up with new sensor tech, lenses (and even things like FF mirrorless) if you already have a huge customer base who always bends over backwards?
No, I don't have any other interest in Canon than the value of my equipment and how I can bring that to good use. As of today, no other camera/lens combo can deliver what I get from my Canon portfolio. Who else can give me the 17mm and 24mm TS-E lenses, who else can give me an 8-15mm fisheye zoom or an 85mm f1.2, who else can give me a handholdable 600mm f4, who else can give me a 200-400 with built in extender and who can outperform the AF, low ISO and fps of the 1DX?

My interest in Canon's financial position is limited to what that muscle means in ability to service what I have and in bringing the future products I want to market. If they start wasting time, money and talent on premature mirrorless or retro looking bodies, I will become more sceptical.

The claims of Canon's lack of innovation is getting a bit boring and it is in plain English utter nonsens. Within this domain Canon outperforms Sony and Nikon in patents by a substantial margin. That is more or less the only metric we have for innovation, besides market share in a high-tech area such as this. Canon leads both and have done for a long time. The only innovation some people seem to care about is sensor technology, which is very important, but still only a part. Looking at what Canon brought to the market with the 1DX, you would have to be a total ignorant to claim that that was not an innovative product. And with the firmware release that just came out, it became even better. I have had the camera for quite some time, but I still find new features and smarter ways to use it and my respect for the designers behind that body grows every day.

And you are right, Nikon and Sony is Trying. But trying is not going to get you anywhere, unless it is quality coming out in the other end.

And I repeat, I am waiting for a higher resolution sensor with better DR, to complement what I have. And if Canon has chosen The Olympics and The World Cup to launch their next majors, it shows both consistency and intelligence.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 07:40:06 AM by Eldar »
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dilbert

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #62 on: January 10, 2014, 07:56:38 AM »
Canon doesn't have to answer the D4s. It needs to answer the D800(e).
No, they really don't. The 5DIII was the answer, and it has outsold the D800 and far outsold the D800E.
Can you point me to the source of this information. I didn't know that Canon or Nikon released this info.

They don't publish numbers for specific models, true.  In their Q2 financials call (Nov), Nikon indicated worse than expected sales of their high-end models.  Canon cut their dSLR sales forecast, but one of their execs commented that sales of high end models were doing well.  The limited, anecdotal sales data available indicate the 5DIII is selling more in the larger markets.  The above, coupled with Canon's already greater overall market share, support that the 5DIII is the better seller.

Plus, the Internet says so.  :P

From:
http://www.canonrumors.com/2014/01/canon-to-haul-capacity-back-home-as-yen-continues-slide/#more-15486

"Canon’s global shipments of interchangeable lens cameras accounted for 45.1 percent of global shipments in July-September, according to IDC, a 5 percent drop in share from the year prior and a 25.7 percent drop in unit sales."

dilbert

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #63 on: January 10, 2014, 08:01:28 AM »
...
It blows my mind how some folk love to complain about Canon and their "lack" of innovations, it was not that long ago when Canon completely changed the photography world with the 1Ds III, 5D II, 7D and the recent 61AF en metering system and it kicks its competitors ass almost every way. Please deny this! If you are unable to take decent to phenomenal shots with today's Canon offerings, which is by far one of the best and innovative systems on the planet, you should consider a different hobby/job.

I think you underappreciate just how quickly the technology marketplace moves. The 1DsIII, 5D II and 7D are almost what you would call dinosaurs now. They're out dated, old, and in 2 out of 3 cases, no longer sold by Canon. Or to put it another way, if Canon introduced any of those three cameras today, they'd be a flop.

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #64 on: January 10, 2014, 08:05:08 AM »
...
It blows my mind how some folk love to complain about Canon and their "lack" of innovations, it was not that long ago when Canon completely changed the photography world with the 1Ds III, 5D II, 7D and the recent 61AF en metering system and it kicks its competitors ass almost every way. Please deny this! If you are unable to take decent to phenomenal shots with today's Canon offerings, which is by far one of the best and innovative systems on the planet, you should consider a different hobby/job.

I think you underappreciate just how quickly the technology marketplace moves. The 1DsIII, 5D II and 7D are almost what you would call dinosaurs now. They're out dated, old, and in 2 out of 3 cases, no longer sold by Canon. Or to put it another way, if Canon introduced any of those three cameras today, they'd be a flop.

The point I was trying to make is that they were gamechangers and highly innovative, which in turn the competition "copied".

neuroanatomist

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #65 on: January 10, 2014, 08:32:06 AM »
From:
http://www.canonrumors.com/2014/01/canon-to-haul-capacity-back-home-as-yen-continues-slide/#more-15486

"Canon’s global shipments of interchangeable lens cameras accounted for 45.1 percent of global shipments in July-September, according to IDC, a 5 percent drop in share from the year prior and a 25.7 percent drop in unit sales."

You are conveniently ignoring the fact that Nikon's sales also dropped significantly, and that since Canon has a greater marketshare than Nikon, Canon could lose more unit sales than Nikon yet still sell more cameras.

Plus, I thought you didn't care about sales figures and don't think they are relevant.   :P
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fragilesi

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #66 on: January 10, 2014, 08:40:26 AM »
I'm not sure that I even get the question.

Canon will release some high end models this year.

Nikon have announced one of their own suggesting it might be a bit better in some key areas but not really giving any great idea other than that.

Neither is giving much away.

So what is there for Canon to answer here?


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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #66 on: January 10, 2014, 08:40:26 AM »

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #67 on: January 10, 2014, 08:58:16 AM »
I wonder if the D800 sales might be pointing them in another direction...

I think the fact that Canon has not rushed a 36mp camera to market is further anecdotal evidence that the D800 series have not been an out and out winner for Nikon.

A high mp FF camera seems to fall into two very different camps. On the one hand you have a few serious photographers who really will be able to use that potential resolution in their work, and then on the other hand the casual user who gets most pleasure by drooling over the size of images at 100% on the computer screen. Pleasure may turn to disappointment when they find they have to use the finest glass, stop down a couple, mount on a rock solid tripod, crop out the edges of the frame etc, etc.

My guess is that when Canon do introduce their high mp offering it will be a very high end camera. Then when the consumer is educated enough to understand why a 18 mp 1Dx is five times more expensive than a 40mp 9D we might see a high mp 'budget' camera.

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #68 on: January 10, 2014, 09:49:42 AM »
I wonder if the D800 sales might be pointing them in another direction...

I think the fact that Canon has not rushed a 36mp camera to market is further anecdotal evidence that the D800 series have not been an out and out winner for Nikon.

A high mp FF camera seems to fall into two very different camps. On the one hand you have a few serious photographers who really will be able to use that potential resolution in their work, and then on the other hand the casual user who gets most pleasure by drooling over the size of images at 100% on the computer screen. Pleasure may turn to disappointment when they find they have to use the finest glass, stop down a couple, mount on a rock solid tripod, crop out the edges of the frame etc, etc.

My guess is that when Canon do introduce their high mp offering it will be a very high end camera. Then when the consumer is educated enough to understand why a 18 mp 1Dx is five times more expensive than a 40mp 9D we might see a high mp 'budget' camera.

The great thing about the 5DIII and 1Dx is their image quality and frame rate. If we have a camera with a higher MP count, then the frame rate will drop. The current throughput for Dual Digic 5 is 225mb/s. This gives us a throughput which can be cut several ways, 12fps @ 18.1mp = 217mb/s. If we assume the same Dual Digic 5 chip set, 225mp / 5 fps 45 mp. If you want the higher MP chip then there's only one way the fps can go.
If the Canon develops Digic 6, generally a gain of 1.5x according to past upgrades, we get a potential figures of 340 mb/s, 12fps @ 28mp (nice) or 5fps @ 67.5 mp or 7.5fps @ 45mp.

Orangutan

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #69 on: January 10, 2014, 10:37:31 AM »
In what way is their conservative / boring innovation, but successful marketing exciting and fun for you as a photographer? Personally, I couldn't care less that Canon still holds the biggest market share.

But maybe their market position is why they aren't trying as hard as SoNikon and others? Why hurry up with new sensor tech, lenses (and even things like FF mirrorless) if you already have a huge customer base who always bends over backwards?

Ricku, your desire for innovation and improvement from Canon is certainly valid.  However, you should be equally upset with Nikon, Sony, Pentax, etc. for failing to provide an alternative that we find impossible to resist.  Seriously, when the 1D4 had its early problems, Nikon did gain market share in that category.  If the D600 were just a little better, it could have gained market share against the 6D.  The D800 is less expensive than the 5D3 and many think it produces better photos.  But it has its own problems, so hasn't gained market share.

Stop blaming the purchasers; rather, blame Nikon, Sony, et al for failing to produce a "killer" product that will force Canon to improve.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 10:50:21 AM by Orangutan »

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #70 on: January 10, 2014, 10:54:03 AM »
I'm sure you guys still remember this ::)

To be honest, I'm one of those thought Canon going to have something in vintage as well. Last time I check, Df didn't do welllllllll

I think it didn't do well because of the borked controls, not because it was "vintage". I'd welcome a Canon vintage body design, so long as it did not include the hideous stacked dial controls and...well, basically kept the phenomenal electronic controls and button placement that is now standard on Canon pro bodies, just in a nostalgic retro body design. And, yes, with out any video features...at all... ;o)

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DanielW

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #71 on: January 10, 2014, 11:12:17 AM »
(...) If you are unable to take decent to phenomenal shots with today's Canon offerings, which is by far one of the best and innovative systems on the planet, you should consider a different hobby/job.

Could not agree more.
I own a 60D and some humble lenses (17-55/2.8, 50/1.4), and even though I would like to have better high-ISO IQ, more DR, faster FPS, AFMA etc, etc, etc, I am pretty sure that after all those years my entry-level camera still longs for a better photographer behind its viewfinder.

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #72 on: January 10, 2014, 01:13:27 PM »
Quote
wondering when Canon is going to move beyond selfie technology based cameras.

I guess this was just a dumb joke, but seriously, Canon's consumer cameras should never be used as a gauge for it's pro lineup.  Nikon is winning the MP race, and slightly better DR and noise control.  But Canon is doing just fine.  Aside from a 7Dii, what's there to want?  The D800, IMHO, just makes bigger files.  And it's no PhaseOne.
So I bought an EOS M and a 6D - I love the black sheep!

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #72 on: January 10, 2014, 01:13:27 PM »

fragilesi

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #73 on: January 10, 2014, 02:08:06 PM »
(...) If you are unable to take decent to phenomenal shots with today's Canon offerings, which is by far one of the best and innovative systems on the planet, you should consider a different hobby/job.

Could not agree more.
I own a 60D and some humble lenses (17-55/2.8, 50/1.4), and even though I would like to have better high-ISO IQ, more DR, faster FPS, AFMA etc, etc, etc, I am pretty sure that after all those years my entry-level camera still longs for a better photographer behind its viewfinder.

VERY good point  :)

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #74 on: January 10, 2014, 02:08:23 PM »
Quote
wondering when Canon is going to move beyond selfie technology based cameras.

I guess this was just a dumb joke, but seriously, Canon's consumer cameras should never be used as a gauge for it's pro lineup.  Nikon is winning the MP race, and slightly better DR and noise control.  But Canon is doing just fine.  Aside from a 7Dii, what's there to want?  The D800, IMHO, just makes bigger files.  And it's no PhaseOne.

Very nicely and succinctly said. So, of course, I'm going to muck it up by adding to it.

We may think the "selfie" technology-based cameras are silly, but we are about the worst demographic to make that judgment. There is a very large segment of the consumer market that wants to use photography and social media to share (some might say over-share) virtually every aspect of their lives. Just look at the number of people on Facebook who take and share pictures of every restaurant meal they eat.

While that market segment might not care all that much about dynamic range or massive megapixels, they do want their pictures to be clear and sharp and their videos smooth and steady. Canon's trying to meet that market.

Canon's little Vixia Mini camcorders seem to be designed to compete with, or perhaps more accurately supplement, the incredibly popular GoPro line. From their promotional videos it is clear they are designed to allow dancers, musicians, skateboarders, etc. etc. to record themselves from a perspective other than the top of their heads. It's a market no one else seemed to be targeting and it's actually pretty innovative on Canon's part.

On the one hand, people complain about Canon not innovating, but on the other many of these same folks poke fun at clever and innovative niche market cameras that Canon develops. The point and shoot market is dead and every manufacturer has to either adapt or die. In nature, most experiments eventually fail and the critters go extinct. But, nature keeps on experimenting and gets enough right to keep on going.

Same is true of companies. Either adapt or die. Give Canon credit for trying to adapt.
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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #74 on: January 10, 2014, 02:08:23 PM »