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Author Topic: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]  (Read 107108 times)

Memdroid

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #60 on: January 10, 2014, 08:05:08 AM »
...
It blows my mind how some folk love to complain about Canon and their "lack" of innovations, it was not that long ago when Canon completely changed the photography world with the 1Ds III, 5D II, 7D and the recent 61AF en metering system and it kicks its competitors ass almost every way. Please deny this! If you are unable to take decent to phenomenal shots with today's Canon offerings, which is by far one of the best and innovative systems on the planet, you should consider a different hobby/job.

I think you underappreciate just how quickly the technology marketplace moves. The 1DsIII, 5D II and 7D are almost what you would call dinosaurs now. They're out dated, old, and in 2 out of 3 cases, no longer sold by Canon. Or to put it another way, if Canon introduced any of those three cameras today, they'd be a flop.

The point I was trying to make is that they were gamechangers and highly innovative, which in turn the competition "copied".

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #60 on: January 10, 2014, 08:05:08 AM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #61 on: January 10, 2014, 08:32:06 AM »
From:
http://www.canonrumors.com/2014/01/canon-to-haul-capacity-back-home-as-yen-continues-slide/#more-15486

"Canon’s global shipments of interchangeable lens cameras accounted for 45.1 percent of global shipments in July-September, according to IDC, a 5 percent drop in share from the year prior and a 25.7 percent drop in unit sales."

You are conveniently ignoring the fact that Nikon's sales also dropped significantly, and that since Canon has a greater marketshare than Nikon, Canon could lose more unit sales than Nikon yet still sell more cameras.

Plus, I thought you didn't care about sales figures and don't think they are relevant.   :P
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fragilesi

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #62 on: January 10, 2014, 08:40:26 AM »
I'm not sure that I even get the question.

Canon will release some high end models this year.

Nikon have announced one of their own suggesting it might be a bit better in some key areas but not really giving any great idea other than that.

Neither is giving much away.

So what is there for Canon to answer here?


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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #63 on: January 10, 2014, 08:58:16 AM »
I wonder if the D800 sales might be pointing them in another direction...

I think the fact that Canon has not rushed a 36mp camera to market is further anecdotal evidence that the D800 series have not been an out and out winner for Nikon.

A high mp FF camera seems to fall into two very different camps. On the one hand you have a few serious photographers who really will be able to use that potential resolution in their work, and then on the other hand the casual user who gets most pleasure by drooling over the size of images at 100% on the computer screen. Pleasure may turn to disappointment when they find they have to use the finest glass, stop down a couple, mount on a rock solid tripod, crop out the edges of the frame etc, etc.

My guess is that when Canon do introduce their high mp offering it will be a very high end camera. Then when the consumer is educated enough to understand why a 18 mp 1Dx is five times more expensive than a 40mp 9D we might see a high mp 'budget' camera.

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #64 on: January 10, 2014, 09:49:42 AM »
I wonder if the D800 sales might be pointing them in another direction...

I think the fact that Canon has not rushed a 36mp camera to market is further anecdotal evidence that the D800 series have not been an out and out winner for Nikon.

A high mp FF camera seems to fall into two very different camps. On the one hand you have a few serious photographers who really will be able to use that potential resolution in their work, and then on the other hand the casual user who gets most pleasure by drooling over the size of images at 100% on the computer screen. Pleasure may turn to disappointment when they find they have to use the finest glass, stop down a couple, mount on a rock solid tripod, crop out the edges of the frame etc, etc.

My guess is that when Canon do introduce their high mp offering it will be a very high end camera. Then when the consumer is educated enough to understand why a 18 mp 1Dx is five times more expensive than a 40mp 9D we might see a high mp 'budget' camera.

The great thing about the 5DIII and 1Dx is their image quality and frame rate. If we have a camera with a higher MP count, then the frame rate will drop. The current throughput for Dual Digic 5 is 225mb/s. This gives us a throughput which can be cut several ways, 12fps @ 18.1mp = 217mb/s. If we assume the same Dual Digic 5 chip set, 225mp / 5 fps 45 mp. If you want the higher MP chip then there's only one way the fps can go.
If the Canon develops Digic 6, generally a gain of 1.5x according to past upgrades, we get a potential figures of 340 mb/s, 12fps @ 28mp (nice) or 5fps @ 67.5 mp or 7.5fps @ 45mp.

Orangutan

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #65 on: January 10, 2014, 10:37:31 AM »
In what way is their conservative / boring innovation, but successful marketing exciting and fun for you as a photographer? Personally, I couldn't care less that Canon still holds the biggest market share.

But maybe their market position is why they aren't trying as hard as SoNikon and others? Why hurry up with new sensor tech, lenses (and even things like FF mirrorless) if you already have a huge customer base who always bends over backwards?

Ricku, your desire for innovation and improvement from Canon is certainly valid.  However, you should be equally upset with Nikon, Sony, Pentax, etc. for failing to provide an alternative that we find impossible to resist.  Seriously, when the 1D4 had its early problems, Nikon did gain market share in that category.  If the D600 were just a little better, it could have gained market share against the 6D.  The D800 is less expensive than the 5D3 and many think it produces better photos.  But it has its own problems, so hasn't gained market share.

Stop blaming the purchasers; rather, blame Nikon, Sony, et al for failing to produce a "killer" product that will force Canon to improve.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 10:50:21 AM by Orangutan »

Dylan777

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #66 on: January 10, 2014, 10:54:03 AM »
I'm sure you guys still remember this ::)

To be honest, I'm one of those thought Canon going to have something in vintage as well. Last time I check, Df didn't do welllllllll

I think it didn't do well because of the borked controls, not because it was "vintage". I'd welcome a Canon vintage body design, so long as it did not include the hideous stacked dial controls and...well, basically kept the phenomenal electronic controls and button placement that is now standard on Canon pro bodies, just in a nostalgic retro body design. And, yes, with out any video features...at all... ;o)

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #66 on: January 10, 2014, 10:54:03 AM »

DanielW

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #67 on: January 10, 2014, 11:12:17 AM »
(...) If you are unable to take decent to phenomenal shots with today's Canon offerings, which is by far one of the best and innovative systems on the planet, you should consider a different hobby/job.

Could not agree more.
I own a 60D and some humble lenses (17-55/2.8, 50/1.4), and even though I would like to have better high-ISO IQ, more DR, faster FPS, AFMA etc, etc, etc, I am pretty sure that after all those years my entry-level camera still longs for a better photographer behind its viewfinder.

tallrob

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #68 on: January 10, 2014, 01:13:27 PM »
Quote
wondering when Canon is going to move beyond selfie technology based cameras.

I guess this was just a dumb joke, but seriously, Canon's consumer cameras should never be used as a gauge for it's pro lineup.  Nikon is winning the MP race, and slightly better DR and noise control.  But Canon is doing just fine.  Aside from a 7Dii, what's there to want?  The D800, IMHO, just makes bigger files.  And it's no PhaseOne.
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fragilesi

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #69 on: January 10, 2014, 02:08:06 PM »
(...) If you are unable to take decent to phenomenal shots with today's Canon offerings, which is by far one of the best and innovative systems on the planet, you should consider a different hobby/job.

Could not agree more.
I own a 60D and some humble lenses (17-55/2.8, 50/1.4), and even though I would like to have better high-ISO IQ, more DR, faster FPS, AFMA etc, etc, etc, I am pretty sure that after all those years my entry-level camera still longs for a better photographer behind its viewfinder.

VERY good point  :)

unfocused

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #70 on: January 10, 2014, 02:08:23 PM »
Quote
wondering when Canon is going to move beyond selfie technology based cameras.

I guess this was just a dumb joke, but seriously, Canon's consumer cameras should never be used as a gauge for it's pro lineup.  Nikon is winning the MP race, and slightly better DR and noise control.  But Canon is doing just fine.  Aside from a 7Dii, what's there to want?  The D800, IMHO, just makes bigger files.  And it's no PhaseOne.

Very nicely and succinctly said. So, of course, I'm going to muck it up by adding to it.

We may think the "selfie" technology-based cameras are silly, but we are about the worst demographic to make that judgment. There is a very large segment of the consumer market that wants to use photography and social media to share (some might say over-share) virtually every aspect of their lives. Just look at the number of people on Facebook who take and share pictures of every restaurant meal they eat.

While that market segment might not care all that much about dynamic range or massive megapixels, they do want their pictures to be clear and sharp and their videos smooth and steady. Canon's trying to meet that market.

Canon's little Vixia Mini camcorders seem to be designed to compete with, or perhaps more accurately supplement, the incredibly popular GoPro line. From their promotional videos it is clear they are designed to allow dancers, musicians, skateboarders, etc. etc. to record themselves from a perspective other than the top of their heads. It's a market no one else seemed to be targeting and it's actually pretty innovative on Canon's part.

On the one hand, people complain about Canon not innovating, but on the other many of these same folks poke fun at clever and innovative niche market cameras that Canon develops. The point and shoot market is dead and every manufacturer has to either adapt or die. In nature, most experiments eventually fail and the critters go extinct. But, nature keeps on experimenting and gets enough right to keep on going.

Same is true of companies. Either adapt or die. Give Canon credit for trying to adapt.

jrista

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #71 on: January 10, 2014, 03:34:35 PM »
I wonder if the D800 sales might be pointing them in another direction...

I think the fact that Canon has not rushed a 36mp camera to market is further anecdotal evidence that the D800 series have not been an out and out winner for Nikon.

A high mp FF camera seems to fall into two very different camps. On the one hand you have a few serious photographers who really will be able to use that potential resolution in their work, and then on the other hand the casual user who gets most pleasure by drooling over the size of images at 100% on the computer screen. Pleasure may turn to disappointment when they find they have to use the finest glass, stop down a couple, mount on a rock solid tripod, crop out the edges of the frame etc, etc.

My guess is that when Canon do introduce their high mp offering it will be a very high end camera. Then when the consumer is educated enough to understand why a 18 mp 1Dx is five times more expensive than a 40mp 9D we might see a high mp 'budget' camera.

The great thing about the 5DIII and 1Dx is their image quality and frame rate. If we have a camera with a higher MP count, then the frame rate will drop. The current throughput for Dual Digic 5 is 225mb/s. This gives us a throughput which can be cut several ways, 12fps @ 18.1mp = 217mb/s. If we assume the same Dual Digic 5 chip set, 225mp / 5 fps 45 mp. If you want the higher MP chip then there's only one way the fps can go.
If the Canon develops Digic 6, generally a gain of 1.5x according to past upgrades, we get a potential figures of 340 mb/s, 12fps @ 28mp (nice) or 5fps @ 67.5 mp or 7.5fps @ 45mp.

Your math here is wrong. The DIGIC5+ is 250mb/s throughput. The full sensor pixel count is 19.1mp, because you have to account for the masked off border pixels as well as the 18mp of actual light gathering pixels. You also have to account for the mirror-locked up 14fps maximum frame rate, rather than 12fps. Canon's full data throughput on the 1D X is 500mb/s.

Rick

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #72 on: January 10, 2014, 04:55:39 PM »
Canon hasn't answered the D800/E yet.

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #72 on: January 10, 2014, 04:55:39 PM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #73 on: January 10, 2014, 05:01:36 PM »
Canon hasn't answered the D800/E yet.

Why should they?
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jrista

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #74 on: January 10, 2014, 05:05:07 PM »
Canon hasn't answered the D800/E yet.

Why is that an issue? Why is it necessary for Canon to "answer" ANYTHING from the competition? I feel like I just answered this in another thread...Canon has never directly competed model for model with their competition. Instead, Canon produces what their customers ask for, and so far, given their track record, they WILL release compelling products that Canon customers want in the years to come.

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #74 on: January 10, 2014, 05:05:07 PM »